DIY eGPU experiences

Oh because I was thinking if mPCIe and 1 or 2 usb 3.0 are all ultized, will the grfx card be running at full capacity? So wont it be much better if I wanna dock it? I am thinking that the 6770m should be able to last me another good 2 years until warcraft 4 comes out? And that i7 2630qm shld be able to last me another 4-5 years? So in between if i dock it, then I would want the gfx card to run at the best capacity.. Hope my ideas are possible though..

 

How does that make sense though? I actually thought you can run only one driver and card at a time, not two, and can't I just disable the 8800gts and then install drivers for the gtx 460 for it to work then since it's a separate graphics card connected to the motherboard like a desktop. Please explain because I don't see that detail on the first page. I also somehow have drivers installed on my broken 8800 gts so I might be able to do it, but do both drivers have to be the same version? Because I'm definately going to want to update that gtx 460 to a newer driver.

And I already looked at the first page because I noticed that I have a combination not mentioned which is p4+5 and I was wondering if anyone else encountered this. I was also asking how in terms of actually taking advantage of these other ports without sacrificing wifi or completey taking apart my laptop when there is only 1 expresscard slot, especially the 4th empty PCI-E slot because it doesn't really show me how. I've re-uploaded the picture with better detail to show what the PCI express slots I think belong to.(I'm a not so good at drawing and didn't want to take too long but it should be enough lol)

 

Ok so I managed to switch the PCI Reset to 0 seconds and my video card gets recognized after a sleep>hot plug method with brand new 266.58 drivers.

The problem I'm encountering now is that no matter what, it doesn't "turn on" the monitor on which the video card is assigned. The monitor does get recognized, but making it my "primary" desktop and turning my internal screen off, doesn't work like it used to.

 

While looking on internet to find out what I could put in the mini pci e slots, I found this very interesting topic. Since my laptop has some trouble running the latest games, i think this is a good solution for it.

I have a xps m1530: t9300 2.5ghz, 4gb ram, m8600gt.

A few things aren't clear for me, about using multiple pcie ports (have 3 mini pci ports, on them is written in order: wlan; wwan; uwb) and express card slot. Can i use that x2 setup? In the thread, i read that the person had to remove 2gb of ram to get it to work, is there any way arround?. Finally, which which version would you advice me to buy? (PE4L/H, and which verison)

Thanks in advance

I found an answer to most my questions, except which device to buy, thanks

 

PLEASE HELP!
Before I start, here are my system specifications:
Dell Studio 1558
Windows 7 64-bit
Intel i5 520m
Intel HD graphics
4GB DDR3 Ram
I built a ViDOCK using a PE4H Version 2.4 and a Sapphire Radeon 5750 1GB card. I have not had any allocation errors when plugging it in and installing the driver. Output works fine; my monitor displayed the image on the first try. However performance is actually worse than before in games. I want to put the ATI card into an X2 port to increase performance but have had no success with DIY ViDOCK Setup 1.x. I have tried extensively to make the port my card is on to x2, however my card is on port 4 so I can’t change it directly to x2 as you can only do that to odd numbered ports. So how can I change either the port that my ATI card is on to x2 or change the port it runs on to let’s say port 3 or 5?
Also, to make matters worse, chainloading will NOT work. Every time I try to do it, I immediately get a fatal error from windows. How can I fix this? It is vital no matter what I do in the setup 1.x software.
Thank you for your assistance.

 

Since your 1558 can't do the x1E tweak, an ATI solution will give impressive 3dmark06 numbers but perform poorly in actual gameplay as you find. The solution would be (i) try a GTX460 instead (ii) get a IGP systemboard so can do a NVidia x1.Opt setup or (iii) do a x2 setup using the 1558's mPCIe slots: port1+port2. There is no facilty to arbitrarily change say port4 to be port1 and then make port1 a x2 port. With a x2 setup, I'd still be looking at a NVidia GTX460 instead of an ATI setup since you can't do x2E.

As for your grub4dos issue, refer to the grub4dos documentation and grub4dos forum. You probably just need to '!Edit config' to boot off another partition.

I had the same problem which turned out to be a intermittent faulty HDMI cable b/w the LCD and the video card. Another reason could be the PSU is faulty or insufficient to drive the video card to run the LCD. That would manifest itself as the gpu trying to drive the LCD with the LCD doing a brief response flash before returning back to the internal LCD. Would also be worthwhile using Driver Sweeper to clean your NVidia files and/or doing a Win7 reinstall to ensure it's also not a driver related problem.

 

Number 3 sounds most plausible for me. I don't have enough money to get a new better card and changing around my motherboard isn't practical for me either. Can you please explain further about option 3? Is there some way I can hook up my ATI card to the mPCIE port? Does it require any extra hardware or modifications? What is the difficulty of doing it? I'm really in a bottleneck here on what to do... If all else fails I'm going to have to return everything.
Thanks alot

 

x2 via your two mPCIe slots would mean acquiring 2xPM3Ns ($20ea) plus another two mini HDMI cable ($6ea) to have sufficient length, plus would need a PE4H. Why not just sell the HD5750 and try a US$60 GTX460-768MB after two rebates from Microcenter instead?

 

Will using a GTX460 work with my current setup? What I'm worried about is the card to do the exact same thing as this one. Will I still get affected by the performance loss? How do you know I will be able to run it in x2? What if it also goes to an even port?
Thanks again for your help.

 

Could it be that the new drivers don't support DVI to VGA connectors to my monitor? Cause that's what I use since my monitor doesn't have an hdmi connector. I always use Driver Sweeper too.

The whole thing (monitor, GPU, PSU) functions just right with the old 258.96 drivers. For the time being I'll stick with those I guess haha and try at a later stage if i "really" need them.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Sorry, another qn, will an Acer 4750G be able to do a x2.0 mPCIe opt. dock? It is the i7 2630qm processor with gt540m and the hm65 chipset with a USB 3.0 slot. And comparing this laptop with the HPdv6 i7 2630qm, 6770m and 2 USB 3.0 slots, which one has a better docking performance or are they the same?
Cos the dv 6 cost 250 more and it is just becoz of the additional USB 3.0 and the better laptop gfx card

 

Pictures of my setup:



12.1" HP 2730p
SL9300 @ 1.8GHz
4.0GB Ram
Win7/64

GTX460 @1.Opt
powered by 203W Xbox power adapter

My main objective was to make a very compact Vidock that could power the gtx 460. I went to my local fishing store and found a box that was nearly the same dimensions as the brick and card combined. The box looks a little ghetto due to my cutting and hacking however it is quite sturdy and is very mobile. I still have to do more benchmarking, the only program I have gotten so far is 3Dmark06 and after a lot of benchmarks I am just getting 8500 for external display and 7500 average for the internal optimus setup. Is this normal considering my CPU?

I still have a lot of testing to do as I have only had this operational for less than 48 hours... Are there any specific settings I should be looking for to ensure I have maximum performance?

 

Well, i realized why some questions aren't answered by the author, because somebody asked this before.

Usually, if your planning to use more than 1x port : PE4H.
If the ports are limited (1x) (or cheap setup), : PE4L regarding the base PE4H is much better for 1x setup in :
-Base
-Delay switch is (MAX:10.50) * PE4L, as i think is limited to 7 sec, not sure though.

Well this is the 3rd time i post this question for masterjumong2012 : Did you try to connect it to ext, display? i'm, also planning to buy PE4L for Sony VPCE.

nando4, recently masterjumong2012 said there is a lagg problem with: CPU: i3 m350, 4GB RAM, (you can see my specs on my profile page).

Thanks a bunch guys!

 

Is it really necessarily to switch the delay switch to 15 sec? Can it work with PE4L (i think 7 sec delay?)

Thank you very much! (because the same specs you have = mine regarding the brand which i'm afraid...)

 

Hello again.
I'm almost ready to experiment with my first DIY ViDock setup based on my dated DELL Inspiron 1520 - T7300@2GHz/4GB/nVidia GeForce 8600m GT
(hopefully to be replaced soon by a SandyBridge i5/i7 quad core model).

I manage to put my hands on a used PE4H v2.0 with EC2C (expresscard) AND PM3N (mPCIE) ($65 total ) so might try a x2 implementation.

Apart from some casual gaming, I'm mainly interested on utilizing the external card for graphic (CS5) and scientific image analysis applications optimized for CUDA processing and the extra vRAM - hopefully it'll work just as well as the improvements I see here with games and synthetic benchmarks.

I believe I'll go for GTX460/1GB or GTX560Ti .

I have two question though:

1) I'd like to try a x2 setup - but couldn't fully understand if my Laptop is able for that while leaving the Ethernet (Broadcom), WiFi (Intel 5300 mini card) and 4GB RAM operational (I won't mind disabling the Ricoh controller) -
It seems like port #3 is missing!? (perhaps something to do with the discrete GeForce 8600m installed in that model?!)
Can anybody help interpret this?:



2) I intend to build a rather compact and perhaps "portable" setup - so prefer not to use a full size ATX PSU - I do have a small Enermax TFX unit rated 300W with 16A on the 12V rail - would that be ok for GTX460/560Ti ? (I figure it's borderline - but what if I say I'll mostly utilize CUDA processing and won't need high frame rates of over 1920X1080 with single display).
Alternatively - is there a decent, "budget friendly", external power brick I can source suitable to power this setup?

Thank you,
Gal

P.S. - What are the expected performance benefits for my usage from x2 Vs. x1 (assuming no high resolution/frame rates are needed) ?
Same for GTX460 Vs. GTX560 Ti ?

 

Hi there,

this is my first post on the forum. So hello to you all.

I am looking at purchasing myself the Samsung RF510-S01 notebook, but I can't find information whether the wireless card can be removed or not? It does not come with an express card slot so I would have to do it the other way.

Does anyone know if it would be possible with this notebook? (I have searched the forum as well but to no avail).

 

Well, to answer P.S question take a look http://forum.notebookreview.com/gam...51-diy-vidock-experiences-63.html#post6278713

It's better to go for GTX460 (stabler), however your saying that you want to use grafx on higher than the resolution you said? I believe it wont work, you need atleast to port 2, and what about your CPU bottleneck? Well you better read the threads!

 

Thank you for the fast reply

 

I simulated your setup by attaching a DVI-VGA adapter to my GTX460 with a VGA cable into my LCD. The GTX460 + Verde (Optimus) 266.58 driver outputs fine via the VGA cable.

Nice work. Can you provide details on thendless' XBOX360 PSU mod? There would be quite a bit of interest in replicating that setup.

As to your performance, I set my system to run 266x7 (1.86Ghz), exactly as your dualIDA overclock is running, finding my GTX460 (1GB, 675/1800, 336 cores) scored 3dmark06=9053. Quite a bit less than the 12.5k I get running 330x8 (2.64Ghz). Makes sense seeing that x1.Opt appears to run a compressed link b/w the system and the gpu. I'd expect a score around your 8.5k if you have a GTX460SE with 288 CUDA cores.

Could consider TME-unlocking your PLL to get it up to 330x7 (2.3Ghz) as shown here for a 2530P to improve 3dmark06 performance.

According to the 1520 schematic, the Inspiron 1520 has:

port1=mPCIe
port2=mPCIe
port3=mPCIe
port4=expresscard

So you could do a x2 setup using port1+port2 or port3+port4 (with device in port2 disconnected completely), or you are the first that could do a x4 1.0 setup. Likely port3 only appears when the bios detects a device in it.

Welcome aboard The underside photos of the Samsung RF510-S01 with covers removed on Tigerdirect show no accessible wifi slot. So it probably is under the keyboard or requires dismantling to access. In which case suggest go for another notebook with an expresscard slot OR accessible mPCIe slot for DIY ViDock purposes.

 

Thank you nando4 for the quick reply!
I'd LOVE to try a x4 1.0 setup :wub:
However, my Inspiron 1520 variant comes with a discrete nVidia GeForce 8600m GT on the PCIE X16 - so the correct schematic seem to be Dell Inspiron 1520/1720 schematic – Corsica\Gilligan – DISCRETE

Would it change your insight?
Can you review the system report from my upper thread and help me understand which PCIE ports are indeed available for a x2/x4(!?) setup?

What about insights regarding performance gains for my CUDA focused usage (of x1 Vs. x2/x4 and GTX460 Vs. GTX560 Ti ) ?

Thank you,
Gal

 

aaah darn, Thank you for the quick reply.

I will start looking for something else.

 

Sorry for my misunderstanding .

Well what i know is yes you can... Maybe, even with x1 port... but its recommended x2... Ask nando4!

 

That's a really neat solution mate! care to share an overview of you wiring so that I can make a similar setup? I've got a PE4L and a XBOX360 power supply you see.. =)

For maximum performance, make sure you're using the Optimus drivers and disable Audio over HDMI in Device manager

 

Here is a diagram showing how I wired it up:

 

Hey, thanks for the help everyone, but I haven't been able to touch my Vidock for weeks now. I thought I'd have enough time to play BF:BC2 online, but I don't, cause I am starting my studying for my medical school boards.

I just listed my PE4L + HIS ATI HD5770 on eBay + 3' HDMI cable+ 72W DC Power supply, plus 250W ATX PSU on Ebay for $120-auction or $170 Buy-It-Now, if anyone is interested.

Hope somebody can get some better use out of it than I can.

 

DIY ViDock + Desktop Radeon HD 6950 + Dell Studio XPS 1645 laptop.







PS; My old Antec True Power 430watt powersupply is making electronic buzz noise. It seems I need a new power supply...

Plan to buy Silverstone SG07 case.

 

GTX460 + 203W XBOX 360 power adapter (HP 2730P)

 

These all look amazing! Bravo to all of you who have done this... I would never dare to spend that much money on something I may or may not know how to build, that may or may not be compatible with my computer, which may or may not end up working. I'm too technically illiterate for that

 

I just received my Lenovo ThinkPad T410s yesterday. Can somebody help me decide which PCIe ports are what?

In AIDA64 I see this:


PCI Express Controller:
PCI-E 2.0 x1 port #1 Empty
PCI-E 2.0 x1 port #2 In Use @ x1 (Intel Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 AGN)
PCI-E 2.0 x1 port #4 Empty

I do have an empty expresscard 34 slot currently too, I'm assuming it is #1 or #4, or is it #3 and hidden? Thanks

 

In light of how much things have decreased in price, I dropped the buy-it-now price of the auction listed above down to $150- that includes pe4l, ati hd5770 1gb, 250w PSU, 72w ac adapter, and a 3 foot hdmi mini to mini cable (plus the original shorty cable). Hope it's enough to interest somebody. Thanks guys.

 

Well, it should be nvidia, well i have the cheapest setup but the PSU mail in rebate has expired , with the psu rebate , overall including shipping GTX460 PE4L ... = 222.7 $ . But without the PSU rebate, maybe 242.7... (Corsair 430W 80 plus)

By the way, whats the PSU are you using? And of coarse this is cheaper for you and more powerful (rebate) :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ..._-na&AID=10446076&PID=3640576&SID=skim525X832

However thanks for the info, maybe i will change my option for nvidia (i dont need optimus)

 

Hi all, i need to answer this

-Is the 430W PSU needed for a setup with GTX460 which uses x1 port?

I am really confused, assuming theres a bottleneck... Because someone posted a 203 watt psu assuming that theres a bottleneck. oh well...

I appreciate any help. Thanks nando4!

 

Can you pot a benchmark? I'm really interested.

 

Good news for nVidia GTX 460 buyers - you can get the GTX 460 for a further 10% off or $76 after the rebate - in addition to what nando4 said above, use the 10% off any graphics card from Micro Center coupon (only in-store) here

$140 then 10% then a rebate of $50 = $76

Still have to work the whole thing into my student budget though lol

 

I havent had time to do any benchmarks other than the 3dmark06 free version. I was getting around 7500 for internal optimus and around 8500 for external monitor on my 1.86GHz SL9300. I'll be working on more benchmarks on the weekend but ya I think my CPU is really holding my score back. Based on the compiled benchmark chart on the first page it seems my results are somewhat consistent with similar configurations.

 

yeah, but i mean benchamrk on somehow a game like RE5... (FPS average).

Thanks, take your time...

 

Hello, new user here over from HardOCP. Saw a thread about this a couple of months ago and now that I have a laptop I've been eager to try this.

The laptop I'm running is Lenovo Thinkpad T410 (2516CTO).
Specifications are as follows:
Intel Core i5 560m
4096MB(4GB) RAM
Nvidia Optimus NVS3100 Switchable Graphics @ WXGA+ (1440x900)
No WAN/Gobi/Fingerprint reader

I've purchased the PE4L-EC2C, Nvidia GTS450, and I have reputable power supply at my disposal (Antec Earthwatts 500W).

I am looking for about a 60-80% performance increase for my laptop's internal display but the way I have it configured currently I do not experience much improvement at all. Perhaps I set it up incorrectly? It runs almost as if I am still using the NVS3100 (which I'm not, I've disabled it in BIOS).

First I went into BIOS and disabled the built-in Optimus of the NVS3100.
Secondly, I installed the Nautis Optimus drivers (Forceware 258.96 according GPU-Z).
Thirdly, I can see the GTS450 under GPU-Z but I have no application to check the occupancy of my PCIe slots, any advice on some software for that?

I launch a game (mainly Battlefield Bad Company 2) and I can tell by the FPS Fraps is displaying and also the heat being dissipated by the video card that it indeed is working, however, I don't think it is working at full performance. The benchmarks at the beginning of this thread show much higher gains for similar setups or worse setups with GTS450 but older/slower processors.

Is there any advice you can give? I'm pretty new to this and I would appreciate any help you could provide. I'm just looking to get stable frame rates in Bad Company 2, Starcraft 2, etc... all using internal via Optimus.

I thank you in advance, keep up the good work and I hope to hear from some of you soon!

 

The internal LCD mode reserves a chunk of the already limited x1 bandwidth for internal LCD display traffic. If you connect an external LCD to the GTS450 then there is no need for that additional bandwidth overhead resulting in significantly better performance. See ViDock Experience: 12" HP 2530P + NVidia GTX460 @x1.Opt for a comparison. Disabling the NVidia audio and running at 1280x800 resolution would help performance if you must run internal LCD mode, as would a pci-e bus overclock.

Swap your wifi in the other ports and map your ports out with AIDA/Everest. That's the only way to know what is what, other than your expresscard slot is port4 based on another user's experience/ports on the first post.

We have no CUDA-based benchmarking results. It may well be a low bandwidth application for which even x1 is OK? Not sure.

 

FluidMark seems to be quite laggy. Faster than CPU, but not what I've expected.

 

Hi guys,

I am new here.

Basically the story is, All started when I got addicted to starcraft 2. I want ultra graphics however the HD5730 on my Asus N61JQ was a no go, same with my HP prior to that. I have been looking at doing DIY ViDock for a couple years now but never had a Laptop capable. I recently got rid of my Asus N61JQ to make way for a desktop to play starcraft 2. It's a sandy bridge core i5 2500 with hd6950 unlocked to a hd6970 etc.

Currently my girlfriend has her computer at my house which is a GTX 460, core i5 650 etc However this is soon to move back to her house and that would be an issue as we sometimes play games together. She does not want any less than ultra graphics either. So I decided to get another laptop... Toshiba 505... noticed that didnt have full hd screen and then saw the Asus G73SW which was a no brainer... Hybrid drives... Full HD Screen.. Yeah went and ordered the G73SW at JB Hi Fi...

To my demise they sucked and did not keep me updated and was very poor service. Then guess what, SB recall.

So was left without a laptop... I also do DJ and had a gig comming up... so started looking for last gen PC's that can do ViDock...

TADA... a DEMO Acer 5750G at The Good Guys electrical store. Literally opened from the box that day to set on display, the store I bought it from sadly were unaware about the recall. To my WIN, I bought it for a very good price too. WIN again... Acer will do like for like swap.. i.e. whole laptop when revised version comes out. (Already registered for this)

Stand-by for story part 2 in next post.

 

After lazing around for a couple weeks, and exchanging messages with nando4 in regards to this decided to pull apart my new laptop to find any available ports.

According to Acer support there was two ports, and the manual as well. Discovered the first one which was occupied by the LAN Card. So there must be one empty one right? COOL! Attempt to open compartment which looks like Mini PCI-e sized compartment.... FAIL! Heavily glued and PLASTIC filled space... i.e. open up to see plastic wall. Must have been deleted on Australian model.

So discussed this with nando4 and then decided to order the DiYViDock from HWTOOLS.... after waiting two weeks then finally ordered it. Took 3 days to get here, most impressed by that. I also ordered a higher speed cable to support the higher bandwidth of the sandy brdige.

Started playing around on Monday. Trying to snap off excess circuit off the P3MN to get correct size for my laptop = FAIL! broke in centre of screw hole.

Anyway moving on tried to screw down the card... FAIL! while cable attach will not screw in and card sits on angle on bottom of laptop. Problem with this is, slips out very easy with even slight movement or placing down on table. So out comes the trusty GAFFA tape, which I managed to secure it with GAFFA tape on the cable. Though this is a very DODGY way to do it, not sure how else is possible. Though had I the choice would have EASILY chosen a Sandy Bdrige notebook with a Express Card slot over this. I use two CD folders to raise laptop higher from back and front of laptop leaving a gap for where the cable runs.

Sabotaged my girlfriends computer by removing graphics card, unplugging motherboard power etc and placing them on a antec lising sub with the SWEX. Plugged it in and got into windows device manager... To my excitement, NOT DETECTED.

Had a chat to nando4, seems whitelisting is now also a trend for Acer. YAY!!!!! Fun times ahead it seemed. Have to hot swap the adapter. So boot with the wireless card, disable it, rescan in device manager then sleep computer, plug P3MN in and everything should be sweet... WRONG... Error 12.

Do all above again but disable onboard Nvidia GTS 540. FAIL! Still error 12.

So time to do the DiYViDock 1.09B.

Seems there is two PCI-E slots comming up in status, and two graphics cards.

Graphics
1 Intel
2 Nvidia

Then under PCI-E
1 Intel
2 Blank

Seems the intel uses a slot as well as a pci-e lane. GOOD FOR YOU INTEL!

Problem is, cannot get the GTX460 to recognise is status... This is where I am stuck and as much as I would love to run up some 3D Mark at 1.2x wth Optimus... Currently cockblocked...

Tried saving pci-e, restoring, live plugging the P3MN, hot resetting, unplug/replug cable(freezes laptop).

Seems like a dead end for the time being, awaiting nando4 instructions to proceed....

P.S. Hope I get this sorted out soon so I can decide if I need to buy power supply and graphics card as you can probably appreciate my girlfriend is not happy about me stripping her computer all the time haha

Edit: nando4 already onto the issues, what can I say other than he is a legend!

 

Hey Nando I want to use my GTX 460 on my Ubuntu 10, but I don't know how to chainload it using Grub for Dos. You know any way to configure the card and then go to Ubuntu?

 

oops.. never noted the mbr option in the grub4dos.bat
hmm... hopefully it would work

 

haha, now the gtx 460 shows up nicely in my ubuntu too!

 

So basically you're saying since Optimus works by rendering on the card and dumping that image into the IGP's framebuffer that no matter what card I use to render to the internal screen, I will never really surpass the NVS3100 performance. How can I overclock PCIe bus? There is no option in BIOS.

Is there anyway to bypass this limitation? More or less I want the fastest and most portable implementation using my LCD's internal screen. Can I disable the IGP altogether and make the external card the primary or no (because the means of communicating data to the screen is via the IGP, therefore you need to dump the rendered frames into the IGP's framebuffer... wouldn't be a problem if the internal LCD had a VGA/DVI in. Of course, they typically don't.)

According to AIDA64, the NVS3100m is being run on a 16x PCIe bus. Assuming the power considerations are there, couldn't one solder contacts to an external 16x slot and build a circuit to supply the additional power? Or am I just dreaming, here?

 

So are the expresscard 2.0 laptops out yet???

How does a SSD drive affect vidock performance?

 

I think the Lenovo Y560P and the new Toshiba X500 are the only 2nd Gen i7 laptops that come with Express Card slots.
I have no idea whether they are EC 2.0 compliant though.

 

The Lenovo X220 and the Dell Vostro 3000 also have Sandy Bridge CPU and expresscard slot. None have been confirmed to be using EC2.0 though.

 

I see the new Dell Latitude E6520/6420 are also Sandy Bridge platforms with 54mm Express Card slots. But NVS 4200M GPU?! 48 CUDA cores on a 64 bit memory interface?! That's barely better than the 9500M GS on my four year old ASUS.
I know since we are going to run a vidock external setup, the built-in graphics doesn't need to be top level, but the video cards on the entry level business laptops just look pathetic.

 

aww, i missed it, Anybody else want to sell their VIDOCK?!?! =>>> let me know thanks

oh yes, im very new to this, if i get the PE4H EC2C is that means im running the GPU at 16x? im so mixed up with this whole 1.0 2.0 1x 2x thing.