Let's figure out how to convert internal MXM connector an external PCI-E x16 box

Seeing how the topic of external video cards for laptops is not taking any meaningful direction(amazingly) i decided to start a thread that talks about realistic solutions and hopefully attracts enough savvy people to get the ball rolling.
Below are descriptions of 2 major directions that are currently around as well as my personal proposal at the end.

ExpressCard or Mini PCI-E slot hacks:
Description: Attempt to utilize pci-e x1 speed(or possibly even x2 speed)slots for video performance boost.
Pros:
- Works on SOME laptops
- Sufficient performance boost for SOME people
- For SOME people it is the only option
These are the only pros.
Personally, the fact that this is the only thing that people came up with for the entire existence of dedicated laptop video cards is quiet sad.

ATI/AMD XGP or "Closer to the truth"
Description: External PCI-E x8-x16 connector/architecture standard from ATI that is going to take a yet unknown amount of time to get adopted by laptop manufacturers.
Cons:
- Uncertainty of mass adoption
- No option to use Desktop Video Cards (due to early stages of adoption)
These are the only cons.

I am fairly certain that laptop manufacturers used solutions similar to XGP for many years but strictly for internal use.

My proposal - something that can be done right now

Below are diagrams of two possible designs of a hack that could be an appropriate companion to XGP(until it takes off) ->
-> All-in-one version:



And, possibly, a more suitable version:



Finally, this is a render of what the above could look like in reality:



What you see is an adaptor board that takes an MXM slot and converts it into a desktop PCI-E x16 slot and a DVI input port as well as a drive bay type power supply sitting beside the video card.

MSI and ASUS have done this same conversion but in the other direction, namely, PCI-E x16 -> MXM instead of MXM -> PCI-E x16 as pictured above

The main components would be:

1. Type II blank MXM card
2. LVDS serializer that converts DVI to laptops LVDS (like any lcd monitor board)
3. PCI-E x16 bus extender cable/strip soldered to PCI-E wires on the MXM blank:
- molex version - http://www.molex.com/molex/family/i...=-16641&chanName=family&frellink=Introduction
- adexelec version(scroll down) - http://www.adexelec.com/pciexp.htm - they can provide variable lenght
4. LVDS cable soldered to LVDS wires on the MXM blank that connects to LVDS serializer
5. PCI-E x16 slot
6. MXM Slot
7. Desktop video card
8. External video card power supply.

Unbeatable advantages over other solutions:
1. Full PCI-E x16 desktop grade video performance - big savings on laptop upgrades
2. DVI/HDMI input to display external content on laptop's LCD


Here are MXM's specs and pinouts:
http://stashbox.org/679919/MXM_Electro_Spec.pdf
http://stashbox.org/679923/MXM_Software_Spec.pdf
Attached picture below highlights MXM's LVDS wires to be used by the "LVDS Serializer" from the diagram above. This serializer is pretty much the same as the convertor board in each and every LCD monitor around(some are capable of better resolution and color depth).

National Semiconductor, Texas Instruments and MAXIM are major serializer manufacturers that should have some idea of what to do as opposed to cracking open lcd monitors.

The main problem here is building a "dummy" MXM board that takes the required wires outside of the laptop chassis.
Villagetronic, Matrox, HWTools and a few others are the people who can accomplish this fairly easily. It is also quiet possible that some skilled individuals could knock something up themselves.

Let's hope this post brings more light into the elusive world of "external laptop video cards"

Commercial solution possibilities:
MX2 is a possible name of the product.
Some interesting news on the progress may surface in the coming months.
Stay tuned.

 

If you're keen to get the ball rolling, all you need is:
- PCI-Express PCI-E 16x Riser Card
- a cheap MXM card
- some IDE cabling, or other ribbon cable of appropriate pitch

1/ Cut the MXM card - just want it as a solderable blank to shove into the mxm slot.

2/ Attach ribbon cable on MXM blank and the PCI-E riser to appropriate pins.

3/ Attach external 12V to tap onto the 12V line of pci-e riser.

Optional - use serializer to attempt to pipe desktop card's DVI out as LVDS input to drive notebook's LCD. I'd personally just leave it to drive an external LCD for the time being.

Test and report results for others to duplicate.

 

nando4,

Thank you for suggestions.
I would have to resort to friend's help as i don't have the gear or the skills to do soldering on the MXM - too small for my bear grip.

Ideally, the final design would incorporate the serializer on the MXM board itself and have a small female port dangling on the outside for the rest of the assembly to connect to.

 

Now this is a very exciting idea. Would any mxm slot work ie my laptop uses mxm 2 eg 8600M/9600M GT cards. I would immediately get my lappie converted to use this setup if the notebook LCD can be driven and put good money forward to have it done as I possess no technical skill .

 

HA! You forget that on some laptops (like mine, for example) you need to take the whole system apart just to get to the MXM card. Sad...

 

Lol unlucky mate,I can pop my mxm card out in under 5 mins

 

King of Interns,
Mount points are the same across all MXM types so MXM blank of Type II can be used for every laptop.
As far as pinouts go - the main part which is concerned with PCI-E and LVDS wires is also the same across all types of MXM so a wired Type II MXM blank seems like a universal solultion.
It's a little early to talk money - get your electronics technician friend excited and see where things take off. In fact, if everone did this - we'd have a fairly good chance of getting this done without the need for potentially lengthy involvement of small manufacturing firms.

NJoy,
Even if it takes you a solid THREE MONTHS of opening your laptop case - this is still worth every second of it.
"You forget" that this is a one off procedure.
You also forget that this is a SMALL REVOLUTION in the laptop world which, increadibly, hasn't found its way to the shop shelves yet.
Personally, i never owned an MXM slotted laptop and the only reason this has finally come out is because i'm planning on getting one some time at the end of the year. I observed this scene for some time and simply can not trust marketing defensive giants any longer as I must have this by the end of the year.

 

But this has been done via ExpressCard with great results?

Almost all new laptops now come with ExpressCard 34 which is plug and play, no fiddling around taking the case off

 

This solution is for those wanting full desktop graphics performance on their notebook, eg: GTX280 rather than GTX280M. In order to do that there is a need for a full x16 pci-e link which the MXM port provides. An expressport provides a x1 pci-e link. WHat does that mean in terms of performance? The pci-e scaling analysis shows HD4870 x16 2.0 performance as a baseline. There is on average 16.5% performance drop over a x2 1.0 link. At x1 1.0 it loses over 50%!! If you're a desktop gamer you'd think ViDock using x1 1.0 speed is pretty poor performing.




All that we are trying to do is extend the MXM port to allow connection to a pci-e desktop video card.
We can see that, for example, the 965PM chipset's pci-express uses >60 pins and runs off the Northbridge(MCH). The MXM card taps this connection.

The expressport/mini pci-e port taps off the southbridge, giving up to 6 1x ports. port1-port4 allow combination into x2 and x4 mode, which would also give pretty decent performance, however the electrical connections must be there to do this, so may be vendor specific. It might mean combining the pins from the expressport AND mini pci-e port to get a x2 link to work. DIY ViDock thread is looking at that possibility.

The expresscard ViDock solution will not be too bad when it's an expressport x1 2.0, but we can expect that in 2010. Means a new notebook too. This project wishes to get Desktop video performance as soon as is technically possible. Promises of expressport 2.0 and ATI/AMD XGP have been dragging on for quite some time.

 

ExressCard 2.0 requires a new laptop.
GTX 260M laptops are getting pretty cheap(GTX 280M ones should cost about same or even cheaper in 2010) and provide similar performance to Vidock 2.0 with these new ExpressCard 2.0 laptops (you'd have to turn the detail level down a little to get equal bang)

The above is not a good sign for Villagetronic unless they can tap x4 speed on a wide variety of laptops.

MXM solution is much more versatile and time resistant. PCI-E x16 2.0 interface speed limit is still a long way from being reached.
Besides you would also get a DVI/HDMI input for your laptop's screen which can be handy in a variety of scenarios.

Commercial existence of such a solution yields economic re-modelling for the laptop market which no manufacturer wants to come any time soon.
I would not be surprised to see attempts to phase out MXM slots/XGP ports in order to maintain sales figures.

edit:
To add to this, I can only imagine the faces of major manufacturer execs when back then still independent ATI came out with XGP(i.e. "what the hell do they think they're doing?!!!"). Noone will know whether shutting them up and slowing the processes down was one of the reasons AMD bought ATI out.

 

Better diagram added

 

Nice one. Toshiki, if there is anything I can do to help at a basic level like taking pictures of my mxm port etc let us know. My chipset is P35.

Looking at your diagram was thinking maybe it would be better to house both the original mxm card and the desktop card in the same external housing so that when the external housing is not plugged into the mains the mxm card will work using the laptop's power and when it is plugged in the desktop card will kick in and take over from the mxm card. Cooling the mxm card would also be an issue as every card has a different cityscape and unlike desktop cards don't come with their own active cooling system.

 

King of Interns,
If you refresh the first post you should see an updated diagram that has both MXM and PCI-E x16 slots in the same box.
Cooling can be arranged in a variety of ways.
MXM card would not need as much cooling as within the body of the laptop.
A simple 12V fan inside the adaptor box could do the job.

I am thinking it might be best to have 2 separate boxes for both cards purely from portability considerations. You could have a nice small MXM only box that attaches to the back of the LCD and a much bigger box for the desktop card with external PSU.

 

Ah I see! My bad. I guess you are right about the mxm needing not too much cooling. Attaching to the back on the LCD is an interesting idea. I was also wondering whether the box could be slotted into the dvd drive bay for extra mobility but then again it would be back inside the laptop and would get hotter.

 

Added a diagram of a 2-box design.

Yes, as long as the size permits( http://www.mxm-upgrade.com/types.html) you could certainly make a caddy-mount for the MXM card if your drive bay doesn't serve any other purpose. Cooling is something to experiment with in such a setup.

 

What a ridiculous and cumbersome mobile upgrade !!! You guys are crazy ;-)

That being said, if you're doing this just for the fun and to prove that's really feasible. Well, have fun then

 

It's alright to dream ain't it

 

yeah i agree i just expressed my first impression ;-)

Pioneers are always subject to ridicule but they can make great advances and then be the ones who laugh at the end ;-)

 

Kallogan,

Overall size of external boxes is not going to exceed ones like Vidock or DIY Vidock ( http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=397667)

I should be able to start on this project within a month (in 2-3 weeks)

 

Let's hope this concept can become a market reality soon. I keep hearing of laptop sales growing and desktop sales slowing down, at least for most users that have less demands.

Of course there is the exception to gaming machines, where desktops are still far ahead of laptops in performance but laptops have that mobility we all crave. Why not get the best of both worlds?

I would love to be able to get a desktop GPU, put it into an external enclosure and hook it up to my notebook. And now there are notebooks with Core i7 desktop processors, just hook up an external desktop GPU and you got yourself a desktop which is more portable than even Micro-ATX desktops. That would be awesome for me to take to India in the winter.

 

Thank you for support, Rahul.

I have a question:
Which switchable graphics (hybrid sli) laptops are confirmed to use MXM slots of any type???

Lenovo(GM45) T400/T500/W500/U330/... - not sure
Nvidia MCP77MH types - not sure
Nvidia MCP79MVL types - not sure (only Clevo M980NU based)
M780G types - not sure but most likely.

 

This concept has the possibility of extending Santa Rosa's longevity. Consider a

1/ T7800-2.6 or T9300/T9500 CPU as an CPU upgrade
2/ Overclocking possible up to whatever the CPU/RAM can handle as shown here. Yes, some are running 1066Mhz FSB bus speeds. A T7300-2.0 CPU can go up to 2.6Ghz as shown here.
3/ The ICH8M I/O chipset is capable of full SATA-II 3Gps, so long as vendor hasn't set CAP.ISS to 1.5Gbps.
4/ So can do a SSD + HDD hybrid storage solution, even using 12.7mm optical bays to take 1TB drives

It's only the graphics side that let's it down, requiring a system upgrade, or MXM (gulp $$) upgrade. What does that mean? It means such a solution could give old systems a new life. MXM equipped system then being in higher demand. Good news for the DIY bargain hunters. Not so good news for vendors wanting to peddle you the latest and greatest mobile graphics solutions, which will still be underperforming next to their desktop gpu equivalents.

 

Let's just hope that this wont kill the MXM standard I guess you know what I mean.

 

wow. I am really looking forward to this. In fact i was actually wondering about this idea some time ago but i had no technical knowledge on how to do it. It would be great if u guys can do it. If u have a proper method on how exactly to assemble it (especially the soldering part) i would not mind testing the method out for u.(if i can get the parts but that should be no problem).

 

AW m15x has integrated & dedicated MXM III card.

I think that would be the way to go, so you don't have to worry about the portable MXM box.

 

I think the external box stuff would be great to be fair, i wouldnt have dedicated and integrated on any of my machines.

 

triturbo,
Let's hope this kills MXM and drags XGP out of the unforgiving darkness.
off top: love for electric cars is long overdue around this forum.

Ripfire,
Thank you. Would be great to dig up some more.

catacylsm,
Don't worry, MXM slots on switchables are a rare thing(only god knows why).
All the boxes are going to be in place.

Another thing to realise is that if your laptop only has one video card(most cases) - you would likely have to use video bios editing utilities to trick laptop motherboards into accepting desktop video cards - that is if you have no luck with no modifications.
SubVendor/SubSystem ID/PCI Device ID/GPU Version are the sorts of things to edit. Good news is that it's all very possible.
With hybrids you might be able to get away with using integrated cards to boot and install drivers for connected desktop cards with potentially positive effects on system bios.

I would strongly encourage emails to Gerry from HWTools in regards to getting this going. Refer to MX2 to be on the same page.

 

I am currently dreaming of notebooks where I can put a desktop card in an external enclosure and connect it to a notebook via a special port and get pretty much the same gaming performance as a desktop. I dream of notebooks replacing desktops entirely while keeping the same performance.

 

For me power on the go is more important. That's why internal solution would always be with top priority for me XGP (or whatever you call it) slot would be nice addition, but I don't want it to replace nice internal GPU, even if it's a midrange one

 

it would be best if the technology is running on even faster pace than today's speed...
say...in 5-10 years span GPU manufacturers start to focus their attention on mobile videocards...then can expect mobile graphics to replace desktop graphics completely....plus mxm cards that can be sold seperately...just like desktop gpu

 

The only Lenovo Thinkpad using MXM is the W700 but the W700 doesn't use switchable graphics.

 

triturbo,
By "kill MXM" i mean to stop people from worrying about whether their dedicated graphics slot is MXM, soldered MXM, proprietry or soldered proprietry one.
MXM slot can exists for as long as market dev people let it.
"Kill MXM" doesn't mean killing dedicated graphics in any way.
External XGP box with a desktop x16 slot neatly completes the saga of laptop video underperformance.
My solution would do the same thing but only for people with MXM slots and with a cable sticking out of the modem phone plug.

devilcm3,
5-10 years is a little too long. I need to upgrade my laptop within 6 months with this functionality.

zillal,
Thank you for your input.
Here are some of the other suspicious switchables(1 or 2 with MXM):
BenQ Joybook S42
MSI EX630
Toshiba Qosmio X305-Q706/Q708
Acer Aspire 7530
ASUS M51Ta

 

i was wondering, ur current design requires you to constantly remove your mxm card each time you want to use the external graphic card. Does this mean i will have to apply new thermal pading each time i fix back? Or is there a work around this problem.

 

jamesbond007,

I will update the first post with a more obvious design sketch.
To answer your question - no, there's no need to keep re-attaching your mxm card.
However, it is totally up to you to decide if you want to use external boxes or not. Personally, i would stick to external boxes.

 

just to confirm, based on your current design suggestions how do you plan to cool the mxm card when it placed outside the laptop or will it need cooling at all.

 

jamesbond007,

MXM card placed outside would need less cooling.
Original card's heat-sink/fan can be used as well as any cutom cooling you desire.

 

k. Cool. Can't wait for ur update and fnal design. Good luck.

 

Hey guys, I just stumbled over this thread and I'm all for it!

I have a Sager 9262 so if i can be of any help whatsoever gimme some materials to read up on this and ill experiment.

One problem i see with this solution though is the length of the cable. wont the longer signal path delay signals quite a bit? i believe i once read that everything need to be together as close as possible or the signal delay gets way out of hand and thats also why they have all the high heat/performance components so close together even though its harder to ventilate.

Edit: If this is possible it would be even better for me, because i could have a killer desktop gpu at home and my 8800m gtx in the second slot for on the go. one might even think of SLI desktop gpus for a notebook which would be ing overkill

thing is that you would have to put the 2 desktop gpus close to each other and probably run one thick cable into the desktop but that shouldnt be a problem if you opt for this in the first place^^

edit2: btw how would you go about getting a blank mxm type 2 card? desolder a cheap one from ebay? or can you buy blanks underhand from some manufacturing sites? i sure as hell know they wont be selling them freely

 

Anthuzad,
Cable length of around 30cm should make little difference.
SLI setup is something to play around with - connecting desktop and MXM cards in SLI could be the only way to keep your MXM inside(unless you can disable the MXM in bios).

Anthuzad and others who want to test their soldering skills - see first page for instructions on how to make build one.

 

well have been doing a little search and i came across this site. http://cn.lotes.cc/catagory.php?sortid=210 They seem to sell mxm stuf and maybe you can check it out and see if the sell the edge fingers so you won't have to cut it from a mxm card. I can't understand most of their drawings so i can't say weather it is the connertor or the socket.

 

Thank you jamesbond007,
The link you provided lists mxm sockets sold by box (in bulk) and they look like this:
http://www.speedtech.com.tw/web/html/prod.asp?cate=-658952880&lang=eng
or
http://www.twinner.com.tw/SearchProduct/ProductContext.php?Product_SN=59108

On the other hand i think i found the holy grail here:


Just need to get in touch with them...

 

great job. this simplifies the job alot. No need to cut up the card itself (probably have to cut this one up though). Do inform when you contact the manufacturers regarding on how to purchase this product

 

007 is on the case

Can't wait to see the results of this development!

 

any updates on the project

 

any update on contact the distributor for the extender. Also any update on a possible design to try out. Haven't heard from you in awhile

 

wall text warning:

I'll assume we want to connect a desktop graphic card to a notebook and not to connect an external mxm graphic card to a notebook.

I don't want to disappoint you. but it won't work. I've thought A LOT about it since the mxm spec release.
I've tried many stuff too. I even got to the point of destroying a XGP cable and connector.
but yes it's a great idea.
but there are so many issues to solve...
anyway I would love to see someone soldering the wires to the connector. that would be awesome.

here some more stuff http://jae-connector.com/en/pdf/message20080601DL1-en.pdf
1) anyway a XGP mod or wtver won't work because it has a special connector soldered to the motherboard.


2)and here's the solution:
http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/review_zone/
I would love to have a PCI-SIG login. I stoped there.

"PCI Express External Cabling" it's just what we need.
The other part it's easy. it's just to power a graphic card etc easy stuff. (assuming no bios issues)
I known I shouldn't be saying this here... but... I would love if someone hacked that site and get the specifications.

the only problem is to connect the mxm connector to the graphic card.
This external cabling or whatever have been around since 2007. there's no interest in developing it. (most of us known why)
anyway it's draft 3 now. (I assume 3 drafts) first draft was to pci-e 1.0. I known draft 2.0 was to pci-e 2.0. so I assume draft 3.0 will eventually be compatible with pci-e 3.0.
mxm also have this versions. there was a mxm 1.0 before and there's a 2.0 now. and there will be a 3.0 in the future.
the good news is that at least in desktops they are backward compatible.

the bad news in all this thing is that we all known that the MXM standard is not respected. we have many different flavours of mxm. clevo, dell etc. all incompatible.
so if this is going to work in any way it will be with a standard MXM slot.
and that's what makes this "project" a failure. or a dream.

we are trying to fight a multi billion dollar industry. notebook manufacturers don't was us to upgrade videocards. they would lose lot's of money. instead making us buy a new notebook every couple years it's much more profitable.
in fact the mxm standard was not even created for the user to upgrade the graphic cards, not at all! it was created to simplify the manufacturing process and thereby saving them money.
of course very few manufacturers offer the possibility of an upgrade and even those only offer very overpriced solutions. producing an mxm board is way more cheaper then a pci-e board.

This will continue to be like this until some manufacturer starts to sell retail notebook graphic cards just like the desktop ones. but that is very unlikely to happen. but if it happens A) every other company will do the same b) the company will be bought by another company and will be shut down.
the problem is even more serious because most brands are just vendors and not manufacturers. they just order to factories. so they are in control of everything.
the average buyer is very stupid and it doesn't realize this whole situation.

so to solve: A) get major awareness to the problem and rant a lot with the companies B) get a working cable
in order to A I don't have any clue.
in order to B see 2)

 

Actually if i am not mistaken, most of the slots itself is pretty standard. I think it was suggest that for a better compatibility a type II connection is used as most current laptop uses this type and even if you have a type III slot it can still accept a type II connection. So i do not think that that is a reason for the 'project' to fail. It is just my opinion.

 

you have mxm 1.1, 1.3, 2.0, 2.1 and 3.0. not to mention the proprietary formats and the redesigns and the modifications. and unlike the desktop standard they are NOT backward compatible. and every slot has it's 4 types (I, II, III, IV/HE).

This is pretty much like upgrading a notebook graphic card. it's the same thing with the difference that you have a cable connected between mxm connector and the desktop graphic card.
Has many here known upgrading the graphic card is a pain in the a**.
And the minor issue is the mxm slot itself. there are many many other issues.
Suppose that someone builds such a cable (which is very difficult anyway). sure it would be awesome. but will only work in very very few models.

There are no made adapters like the expresscard to pci-e ones etc.
You need to design a new adapter. And that's a VERY hard thing to do. Specially when you have no access to the specifications. I was stuck here.
But there's already an external cable draft (for pci-e 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0)... and we all known where the spec is...

 

well the card part is not a concern. We are only concerned about the slot. And like i mention most new laptop and even some of the older usually has atleast a type II slot which is why we are using to test out. And the newer slot type like III and IV are backwords compatible. so it won't be a problem if we use the the type II card configuration. Also all the pinout for the type II cards are available so we can use that to design a working model first. Now i admit this will be a very hard process but it is not impossible. and as we get to understand the process better i am sure a much more suitable and better solution will be found. we have to try first right. =)

 

you are messing the things up. the types are always backwards compatible the slots are NOT. and "newer slot type like III and IV" ? ?!? those types have been around since the mxm spec was released.
the types are not the bigger problem. the mxm standards are. like I said you have 1.1, 1.3, 2.0, 2.1 and 3.0 standards. and they are not compatible between them. that's why cards are also the problem.
it's not like in desktops where you can fit a pci-e 2.0 graphic card in a pci-e 1.0 slot.
it has nothing to do with mxm types.

for example you won't be able to use a mxm 2.0 type II card in a mxm 2.1 IV slot. but you will be able (assuming no bios issues etc) to use a mxm 2.1 type II card in a mxm 2.1 IV slot.
don't mix mxm standard versions with mxm slot types.