ViDock 2 - My experiences so far

Good work!! Perhaps you can do back-to-back testing on both the mobile HD4670 versus the desktop HD4670 to give performance differences?? eg:

- 3dmark06
- 3dmark Vantage
- Resident Evil 5 Benchmark

 

This seems quite a bit over the line especially for a reseller. Threatening forum members with legal action just because a 50$ assembled contraption competes and surpasses their 300$ product is not a reason to post threats of legal action. Simply posting that calling it a DIY vidock infringed on the vidock name was all that was needed. HWtools is the maker of this product and not nando, further HWtools does not even call it a DIY vidock. You should have simply reported to a moderator that nando should not call it a DIY vidock.

It is unfortunate that from a seller perspective this kind of product will hurt business. Regardless, the product provided from HWtools backs up their claims with actual proof and not just a youtube video. There is actual data provided not just from nando, but other forum members showing that a pciex1 lane just does not cut it. Vidock should have been released when the 2.0 expresscard port was available. Now it has to deal with several months of only being a mediocre product. Thats Villagetronics fault for bad marketing not nando's or HWtools.

 

are there cases for the PE4H adapter + video card?

 

It doesn't come in a case, no.

Basically if you have the money and an express card slot, go for the vidock.

If you only have a miniPCIe slot/port then your only option is to find or build a case for the PE4H + video card/

 

Don't have tons of time, but will as I can. Here is 3dmark; what do you need to know about my system, etc?

Native:


External:


Dell XPS 16, 4 gb ram, 4670 1gb internal and external via ViDock2.

 

Both your 3dmark06 numbers are lower than I expected. Notebookcheck gives a HD4670 3dmark06 value of 6850 as shown here. My external HD4670 measured 5340 using a [email protected](OC) in XP here.

I guess the real proof would be how a game actually performs, eg: The Resident Evil 5 benchmark at say 1280x800 on both the mobile HD4670 and the desktop HD4670.

 

I'm not very familiar with the scores, but I was pretty disappointed, especially with the CPU performance. Any suggestions? Besides video card drivers and turning off Aero it's pretty much unmodified.


I'll run it next.

 

By the way, should I take back the 4670 desktop card and get the 4770? How big of a jump in performance would that get me?

Primary uses: photo editing/management, extensive online poker (not nearly as intensive as FPS or RPG gaming), and web.

 

A HD4770 offers faster gpu processing than a HD4670 but the performance wall here is the x1 1.0 pci-e link. PCI-E scaling analysis shows the faster HD4870 (which is faster than a HD4770) provides similar performance to a HD3850 (which is approx same as a HD4670) at x1 1.0 levels. It needs the x2 1.0 link to show performance improvements.

The second problem will be the HD4770 officially requires more than the 75W provided by the pci-e lane as indicated by the additional 8/6 pin power connectors, so it requires an external power supply to drive it.

A hwtool's PE4H + existing HD4670 at x2 1.0 speed would provide greater performance than a HD4770 in the x1 1.0's ViDock. Better yet would be a HD4770 at x2 1.0. Advise reading question 2 of the MiniFAQ here before jumping ship to a hwtool's PE4H.

Disclaimer: apologies if this is not ViDock specific discussion. If it is not appropriate to respond to performance question by suggesting other higher performance products then please ask a moderator to delete this post (has my permission to do so).

 

Thanks, that pretty much solves the issue for me. I basically need the cased solution for as mobile as I'll need to be. Otherwise, I'd jump at that.

 

In that case performance will be limited to ViDock's x1 1.0 link, until you get a notebook that can do x2 1.0 (expressport 2.0). If you want more performance would recommend holding out for a HD56xx/HD57xx. They use the 40nm tech as the HD4770 does to improve performance further as well as lower power consumption.

 

Do you know of any inexpensive DVI to USB frame grabbers? And also if it would work if it's not for gaming? I have an ATI Firepro V3750 that I want to use in a blank Vidock2 with my laptop while traveling to do CAD work, but want to find a solution before I spend money to find out if it works or not. So being able to use the internal screen is the deciding factor.

The other thing I have been trying to find the answer to is just getting a new AMD based laptop before the end of the year. I heard that the Vidock 'should' work with the internal display on an AMD chipset based laptop, but haven't seen any confirmation and I dont want to buy one just to find out it doesn't work.

 

It will not work on your laptop's screen at this time. ATi says they can make it happen, but to this point their engineers have not addressed it as a priority.

 

If ATI's driver did software cloning

If ATI drivers are written to "clone" the external graphics display by shifting the displayed data from the ATI card to the to the onboards graphics, then you are adding more traffic on an already small data channel. Consider that it would eat up 48% of your available x1 1.0 pci-e bandwidth when sending raw data at 30FPS.

1280x800x32-bit=4MB per image
At 30FPS that's 120MB/s

The x1 1.0 link is 2.5MBit which works out to be 250MB/s after 20% overhead. 120MB/s is just under half the bandwidth. It gets worse at higher resolution and more FPS.

ATI could certainly clone the image on a x16 2.0 link but for x1 1.0 it is just too taxing. They could decrease that requirement by doing some form of compression on the gpu side, which may require new hardware code (??) with the driver doing on-to-fly decompression before sending it to the onboard graphics.

Tapping the LVDS lines instead

If you dismantle your system you'll find a high density connector that attaches the LCD to your systemboard. That connector has LVDS signals as input into the LCD.

If a switchable "double adapter" could be made with a jack that leads to an external point on your system AND the external graphics card can be made to output LVDS signals instead, then you could plug in the desktop video card, switch it through, and send the data directly to the LCD as if it was an external LCD.

Using this method is the preferrred performance option, but at the moment the systems are not designed for it so modification would be required.

 

any updates on the vidock 4?

 

Negative

 

G I wonder why lol

 

dang, that's too bad
i was really looking forward to the vidock 4

 

You can continue to look forward to it...it is on the way. As with new technology it will usually take longer than originally planned, but it will be released shortly, we just don't know exactly when yet.

 

Paladin - any idea if the ViDock4 will support the newer cards (like the 5870)?

 

Yes, that is the whole point of ViDock 4. It will support future generations as long as they have the same size, connectivity and power requirements.

 

Sorry - not what I meant. I was hoping that since the next generation of card is available now - will the ViDock4 ship with the new card?

 

Ah, sure, if it is actually shipping from ATi it will be available in the ViDock 4 once it is released.

 

cool, thanks paladin
i know there are DIY options now
but i really like the fit and finish of the vidock

 

Will ViDock 4 add any ability to combine mini pci-e + expressport to get x2 1.0/2.0 pci-e link performance? Something maybe the hardware developers could consider.

 

They should also consider using the extra lane on the miniPCIe port to get 2x.

@Paladin, will we see the miniPCIe port being supported anytime soon?
I'm sure the hardware developers have access to the pci-sig datasheets so it wouldn't be hard to get 2x from 1 miniPCIe port.

 

Have you ever wondered why those that actually HAVE the ViDock say it performs beautifully?

ONE of the reasons, among others, is that it has ALWAYS used both lanes on the PCI-e.

So, now you know one of the supposed "trade secrets" of the ViDock. There are others as well, in addition to the fit and finish, that take the ViDock well beyond a DIY project

 

So you are saying the card runs at x2 bandwidth and with PCI 2.0 it will run at x4 bandwidth?

EDIT:
There are 250 MB/s per lane, correct?

Now you are telling me that if I buy the vidock today, it will run @ x2 bandwidth (500MB/s)?

And If I get a notebook with PCIe 2.0, the vidock will run @ x4 bandwidth?

 

26-pin expresscard has a single lane as part of it's electrical signals specification. One lane has a differential PCI RX/TX pair.

52-pin mini pci-e has provision for a second lane as uncovered here which we are not sure of how many vendors have implemented as we can't even get the PCI-SIG spec for it without paying US$3000 membership fee for the document.

Since ViDock uses a single-lane based expresscard, I'm curious how it can possibly ALWAYS used both lanes on the PCI-e when they are not even electrically connected?

 

wouldn't, say, a t7200 CPU like mine bottleneck performance specifically when gaming with a vidock configuration that has a new gpu (such as a 5870)? or will the gains be very substantial?

i'm not fully aware of how the cpu and gpu share calculations when gaming, but i always assumed the higher the resolution, the more tax on the gpu, the lower the resolution, the more tax on the cpu. if i had a vidock setup, would it be more reasonable to use it at native resolution rather than scaled down? i assume at the highest possible resolution, a 5870 would perform a substantial amount more calculations versus the cpu at that resolution, whereas a lower end gpu would share much more work with the cpu. is this correct?

 

ViDock's x1 pci-e link, in your case it would be x1 1.0, is the bottleneck restricting the HD5870's performance. We see x1 1.0 delivered less than 50% of x16 2.0 level when analysing HD4870/HD3850 performance. See pci-e scaling analysis. So unless ViDock can increase the number of lanes being used it's questionable how much minor performance improvement will be had using any gpu more powerful than a HD4670. Appears PM55 chipset being used in the new Core I7 systems has a x1 2.0 (expressport 2.0) link, so would be a better candidate for these more powerful gpus.

 

If that's true, and it runs at x2 standard and x4 with expresscard 2.0 then the regular ViDock (4 - for me at least, if and when it comes out) seems like a damn good option (in terms of price).... compared to the DiY solution

PEH4 w/ express card would be $85, then I guess you'd have to get a PE4L or something to get the mini pci-e card which would be another $55,(plus $18 shipping puts you at $158) and then you would have to get a PSU - good ones are around $50ish ($208) and hopefully some sort of box to house the DiY project... ~$220?

Curious to see the price of a blank ViDock 4 given all of that...

EDIT: Didn't mention price of video card since it would affect the price the same for each solution...

And these are just my thoughts, I personally want something that runs in at least x2 mode and can power a card at least 8800GT/Ati equivalent or better...

 

The comment by paladin44 on using 2 lanes as part of it's "trade secret" design is technically incorrect since ViDock is using the expressport which only has a single lane as part of it's specification. More comment here.

 

Hey Paladin44, any news about the ViDock 4 ??? With the rising prices of the DIY kit, if the ViDock 4 without a GPU comes out at close to the price of the ViDock 2 also without GPU @ $200 I think may be worth it as it will have a nice case, etc. and should be PNP with a higher end GPU. Please let us know if you have any news. God Bless

 

It has been delayed past the original estimate of August, so until it is released I cannot predict the date. However you can rest assured it will be posted here in the Forum once it is finally released

We live to serve Him, and you

 

What are the dimensions of Vidock2? And how much room is there for the videocard? Also will a 2 slot-wide videocard fit into it?

 

It will only accept cards up to the size of an ATi 4670.

 

Just wondering if you could fit a longer card by removing the end piece from the ViDock case and also by using and modifying a larger wattage AC Adapter ??? Let s know. God Bless

 

That is a modification that would void the warranty. We cannot recommend that.

The best thing to do is wait for the ViDock4 that will handle even the biggest ATi card.

 

Any word on if Vidock will be able to power the internal LCD at some point?

 

That is still up to ATi to solve, and we do not have any update on when they might get that done...just continuing promises that they will get it done.

 

hmm, it seems strange to me that it's not atop their priority list. They'd sell like hotcakes at a fair price while powering the internal display.

 

Am I correct in assuming that the ViDock 2 will not work with my Dell Latitude E6400 because it has an Nvidia card?

 

Only if you are running Vista. Vista requires all video cards to be the same brand, but with Windows 7 you should be fine.

 

I am running Vista, but I'll upgrade to 7 soon. Thanks for the tip.

 

Yikes... ATI 4670 Mobility scores 7000 in 3D Mark 06 & runs Crysis @ 1280*800 high settings - 28fps avg.

Any one of the MSI EX620, G50vt, Compal KHLB2, or a used Gateway P Series laptop + refurb ultraportable or netbook is a better choice than a T400 or E6400 + ViDock 2 + External Monitor if anyones thinking of going in that direction.

 

The point is he was running an integrated video card on his laptop...now he can use it as a decent gamer.

 

There is a PCIe x16 external port that AMD developed for laptops for their XGP solution in which an external HD3870 can power the laptops screen. Its on the 13" amilo 3650

That technology is far superior and the XGP box with an HD3870 doesnt even cost as much as the ViDock. But the technology hasnt taken off, thank the OEMs for that. I would love to see it on all small notebooks. AMD's innovation often goes unnoticed until Intel steals it

The expresscard does not have the bandwidth to display on the laptops screen. Displaying rendered video is a lot more data than the CPU feeding the GPU. I would say thats never going to be worth it through the expresscard slot.

 

If he's got a decent processor, an external monitor setting around... if you're going to output the video to an external monitor, build a cheap desktop... (imo)

With better performance while driving the internal laptop monitor this thing may be worthwhile.

 

There is plenty of benefit in the ViDock, however it is bandwidth limited as discussed. And its priced too high for not getting the full potential of your hardware.

Its a great gadget though. I would consider one if it was maybe half the price for the blank one.