580m vs. 6990m

Goal: To play The Witcher 2, Crysis 2 and Skyrim in 120Hz 3D in ultra maximum settings with anti-aliasing set to maximum. And to also play TESIII Morrowind with graphics mods (Note: TESIII is an old game; single-threaded and needs at least a 5.0GHz processor to get decent frame rate)

The NP8180 looks good to me because it has the dual 6990m GPU and the unlocked i7-2960xm processor (because I most definitely need to be able to overclock). But the NP8170 has the 120Hz 3D but only one 580m GPU. I could probably attach an external 120Hz 3D display to either of these laptops and play in 3D. However, AMD laptop GPUs do not support NVIDIA 3D vision. I was under the impression that I needed two GPUs to run The Witcher 2 in 3D at maximum settings with AA cranked all the way up. But when I did my research on these two graphics cards, I found there was not much difference between two AMDs and one NVIDIA.


GTX 580m
Processor clock speed: 1240 MHz
Memory clock speed: 1500 MHz
Texture fill rate: 39.7 Gigatexels/sec
Memory bandwidth: 96 GB/sec


AMD 6990m
Engine clock speed: 715 MHz
Memory clock speed: 900 MHz
Texture fill rate: 40 Gigatexels/sec
Memory bandwidth: 115.2 GB/sec


So...
Two AMD 6990ms:
Engine clock speed: 1430 MHz
Memory clock speed: 1800 MHz

One NVIDIA 580m:
Engine clock speed: 1240 MHz
Memory clock speed: 1500 MHz

Seems like dual AMD GPU is 15% faster in engine clock speed and 20% faster in memory clock speed than a single NVIDIA 580m.

So what do you guys think? Is it really necessary to get dual 6990ms as opposed to a singe 580m when the increase isn't even that significant? I know The Witcher 2 is GPU intensive but the dual 6990s don't offer that big of a difference any ways. And all I had to do to ascertain that was simple math. Or am I wrong and 15~20% is actually a big jump? Because to me, it isn't. 50~70% would be a big difference in my opinion.

I'm tied between the NP8170 and NP8180. Although I could just wait until after 2011 ends to see what new technology is out on the market. I've heard computer markets put out new products in the beginning of a new year.

 

Do not compare clockspeeds between two vastly different architectures. The gtx580m clock you have is the shader clocks, not the core clocks.

The only way to get an idea is directly seeing the performance of each. Two HD6990m are going to be way stronger than a single card solution.

That being said, even tho both cards vendors are powerful, I doubt you will absolutely max out the games.

 

You can't look at a nVidia card's clocks and an ATI/AMD's card's clock like apples to apples. They each got different architecture and shader processor technology that varies to a degree that you can't look at them clock to clock.

The consensus on NBR has been that in real-life performance, one 580M is 5%-7% better in aggregated game performance than one 6990M. However, two 6990M's in CrossFire X is obviously better than one 580M by an additional 50-70%, depending if the game takes CFX Scaling well.

Therefore in the long run, a pair of 6990M's is better than one 580M. However, two 580M's in SLI is around 5%-15% better than two 6990M's in CrossFire X.

Since you appear to be an Elder Scrolls fan, Skyrim at the moment is having driver troubles in effectively making CrossFire X work right, so you are better off with SLI. Plus Crysis 2 and Witcher 2 appears to also have driver advantages with nVidia than ATI/AMD.

With that SAID You are better off going with two 580M's in SLI if you are going to max out AA Neither one 6990M or one 580M is going to run Witcher 2, Skyrim or Crysis 2 on 1080p Maximum with max AA. If Ultra is what you want to go, go with a dual card setup and if you are a Skyrim junkie, definitely for the moment go with two 580M's. However Max AA is very hard to achieve on laptop cards even in CrossFire X or SLI since a 580M or a 6990M is really around a the levels of a weak 560Ti and a weak 6870 desktop card. It is still a mid-tier desktop card in the very end.

If that isn't going to satisfy you, then you are better to wait till the next-gen mobile GPU's out. Rumors that they are going to pack more punch than the current generation. However you are going to wait for a bit longer though...

PS: Forget Ubersampling on The Witcher 2. It is not going to happen with any combination of laptop GPU's right now.

 

Oh, I didn't know they were so radically different. Well, that's part of learning.
Hmm, well I do want to "ubersample" on TW2, as you put it. What is your disposition on the greatly anticipated P270WM coming out in 2012? You're right that I am dissatisfied with current laptop technology. The Clevo P270 will have the Sandy Bridge-E i7-3960 processor which has an unlocked multiplier and the dual 580Ms SLI, which is much much better I think than dual 6990m. Still not much is known about this machine but do you speculate that it would run TW2 in 3D maxed out significantly better than any laptop machine currently out now?

 

In a word no. With Ubersampling and 3D. You are looking at 3x Desktop GTX 590's to do the job. 3D itself will kill 50% of framerates alone when activated and Ubersampling well... Think of that as Crysis 1 back in the day. With those two combined and you insist, you want to invest in a top-tier desktop. No laptop at this moment can do both at the same time.

Also Ubersampling and 3D are GPU-dependent. I have seen a Desktop i7-990X only using 15% maximum of its power when maxing out TW2 with Ubersampling and no 3D on 1080p. The poor 485M SLI in the setup was barely puffing out 15 FPS. TW2's Ubersampling is definitely a GPU-dependent feature as well as 3D.

The P270WM is going to use Sandy Bridge-E CPU's but it is still using laptop GPU's. Even the next-gen GPU's for laptops isn't going to be toe-to-toe of the best next-gen GPU's for desktops. You will still have GPU limitations with the P270WM when you can do a desktop X79 build with top-tier desktop GPU's. You will be up for sure 3x the performance with that desktop setup than the P270WM. A word of thumb that as of 2011-2012, the best mobile GPU is one-tier lower then the best desktop GPU.

The demands you want from a laptop is at the moment are not possible. Either you have to sacrifice your standards or go desktop. With the money of getting the best gaming laptop you can, an equivalent custom-built desktop is 3x more powerful guaranteed. Gaming laptops are there for people willing to sacrifice a bit of the graphics fluff more mobility. If you want to best of best graphics, you will need to sacrifice mobility to get it. Hence why desktops are still alive, despite the rise of laptop users over the last half a decade. People though by now desktops are archaic and extinct, but nope, they still deliver the most power you can in the personal computing sector for you money.

 

Hmm, I think you (and a few other people I've been talking to), have convinced me to go with a desktop. I mostly use my laptop for modding TESIII Morrowind any ways. And I think it would be more fun to play The Witcher 2 and Skyrim on a desktop with a huge 120Hz LCD matte monitor any ways, rather than a 17" laptop screen.

I sure do change my mind a lot. But at least I'm not quick to spend money. Well in that event, I'm just going to get a Sager NP8130 for $1000. It will be adequate for modding Morrowind and listening to iTunes.

Thanks for helping to elucidate me, Star Forge.

 

Because everyone needs an NP8130 to listen to itunes.

 

NP8130 users learn to graduate to Foobar2K or MediaMonkey

 

but... but... itunes uses GPU processing to database and process my 128kbps music... i HAVE to have my KATY PERRY fix NOW!

/that was sarcasm, kiddies

 

You can go and get an even cheaper laptop that can suffice modding Morrowind and listening to iTunes you know. The cheaper the laptop for those needs, the more you can spend on a killer-rig. Just saying...

 

Yes, but rendering thousands of objects on the screen in the Construction Set for The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind does take a lot of processing power; very little GPU power. And not only do I have to render a lot of objects (and remember that the horrible Gambryo engine on which it was built renders all faces of an object, not just what you can see in front of you, but what you cannot see as well, which is why it strains the CPU so much) but the NPCs (Non Player Characters) have scripts attached to them which also slows down the render window. Morrowind really does ask a lot out of computers, moreso than what people would expect from a 2001 game.

I plan on spending about $1000, maybe a few hundred dollars more, for this laptop I'm getting shortly. And once the X79 comes out, I plan to try to not go over $5000 since that is my credit card limit. Although, if my supreme custom built laptop comes out to $6000 or so, I can always just do a payment plan or some other option. But $5000 seems like enough money to get the top gaming rig that all the computer nerds will be gossiping about, right? haha

 

You might not need Sandy Bridge-E on your laptop. Even the 2670QM Sandy Bridge is adequate for on-the-go laptop rendering and most of those can be found in laptops like $750 if you hunt around. You can save the extra $250 on the rig. I am just saying that for your needs on a laptop, you don't even need a grand to get the job done. You just need a Sandy Bridge Quad and laptops with a Quad can be found for under $1000.

 

i7 has four processors
i5 has three processors
i3 has two processors
Not sure of the name for a one processor computer.

Is that all correct?

 

No.

For laptops with Sandy Bridge:

i3- Dual Cores w/o Turboboost.
i5- Dual Cores w/ Turboboost.
i7- Dual and Quad Cores w/ Turboboost.

M stands for Mobile (Dual Core).
QM stands for Quad Mobile (Quad Core).
XM stands for Extreme Edition Mobile (Quad Core).

Turboboost is the Intel technology that self-overclocks itself by raising the CPU Multipliers when the CPU needs more power when it is underload. i3's lack that feature but all i5's and i7's do.

Hope that helps.

So you want to look for something that starts with an i7 and ends in a QM or XM (but XM is overkill TBH if you are going to hit 1K under for a laptop with secondary usage).

So you want these:

i7-2630QM
i7-2670QM
i7-2720QM
i7-2760QM
i7-2820QM
i7-2860QM
i7-2920XM
i7-2960XM

 

correction
i7 fast dual core or quad core
i5 2 cores and turbo boost
i3 2 cores no turbo boost

AMD is the one that makes tri cores. although its sort of an interesting concept of having 3 cores.

 

I would not buy anything this late in the year. At least wait until after January 13th; the Consumer Electronics Show takes place from the 10th to the 13th, and the plans for Nvidia's and AMD's new high-end mobile GPUs are expected to be announced there.

I would not purchase a machine this far into December, with that news looming merely a few weeks away.

 

IMO a single GPU system is better than spending money on SLI systems and then facing issues! And I alwasy had better experience with the AMD's.. Much cheaper then the Nvidia's

 

If OP really wants to go SLI, then for the love of god use 2 580's rather than a 590.

 

why? are there any problems with the 590?

 

1. You have half the bandwidth, assuming you have a mobo which supports 16x 16x sli
2. It will run hotter than a 580
3. You don't have the option of running on a single GPU if you run into micro stuttering
4. The VRMs on the 590's are terrible, it'll go kaput if you try any significant overclock on it
5. If said card goes kaput then you lose the whole thing, whereas you only lose one card with a 580 SLI setup, meaning higher replacement cost
6. If you decide you hate SLI later then you don't have the option of selling one of the cards for a single GPU setup
7. At stock settings, 580's in SLI will beat a 590

 

Agreed. My lappy is more for work anyways. I'm personally waiting to update my desktop, the 28nm gfx cards should be mucho faster

 

Well, I went and bought this Asus G74SX-BBK8 at Best Buy today for $1500, including warranty and optimization (mine has BluRay and Matte screen instead of Glossy). I probably should have waited but it is still unopened in the box and I have my receipt. If I don't like it and want to go with a Sager or some other model, I can just take it back to the store and get a refund.

The Asus G74SX-BBK8 I just bought has:
i7-2670QM
8GB DDR3 RAM @ 1333MHz
GTX 560M
BluRay reader
Store price after tax: $1503


However, this Sager Sager NP8170 has piqued my interest for quite a while:
i7-2960XM
8GB DDR3 RAM @ 1600MHz
GTX 580M
BluRay reader
120Hz Matte 3D screen
Online price: $3009

I realize with laptops, I cannot max out everything. I'm fine with that for now. I need the mobility for now any ways. The games I want to play are Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect 2...

What do you guys think? Did I make a wise decision with the Asus or would I benefit more with the Sager?

 

i think the ASUS is perfect, i myself use a laptop with i7 and ati 5850 and have no problem maxing out newer games like

Aliens VS Predator
Resident Evil 5
Crysis
Battlefield BC2
Alpha Protocol
Arcania Gothic 4
Mirrors Edge
Witcher 1
Dawn of war 2

Thats all the games i played on this laptop so far and all ran fine with maxed out settings an native res 1650x1050 or something close to that

your laptop is stronger than mine so u did a good deal

 

Those are two completely different platforms. The Sager is a more powerful laptop at twice the price. Its not an apples to apples comparison. PS...you don't need the 2960xm, but if you wanted an extreme processor, i'd probably buy one off ebay for a much cheaper price, which would significantly reduce the cost of the sager. If the price of the sager/Asus are similar (say within $500), i'd prefer the Sager because of the more powerful graphic card options available

The only person that can answer your question is yourself. Now that you have the g74, does it fit your needs?

 

i had the same exact question as the op, good thing i stumbled on to this cool site

 

I returned my Asus and got my $1503 back. I really do want to try out a Sager NP8170 since I've never had one before. The Sager may be better or it may be worse. I won't know unless I buy one. And I have the money for it right now too.

I need the xm processor so that I may overclock it up to 5 GHz since I need the high CPU frequency for rendering my modding work in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. The game uses up to 100% of one CPU core and up to 0% of 2,4,6, etc... cores.

Mostly this laptop is for playing Elder Scrolls games. But I do like The Witcher 2 and Dragon Age: Origins. I've seen videos of TW2 played on a laptop with a gtx 460m with good framerate and nice graphics. So I'm sure a gtx 580m overclocked will do better.

 

1000$ for a laptop, i hope that spending goes well!.

Both are great video cards but why do you need to play all ultra settings?.

 

Unlike a desktop that has more robust cooling options, the problem with going to 5ghz on a laptop is that you'll have issues keeping the temps down. There are many hardcore guys in the alienware forums that have gone to mid 4ghz's on the 2920's\2960's...and someone who has gone over 5ghz with the 2960 so its definitely possible, but you will be fighting with the temps

Normally, they only go that high for benching, but for everyday, most of these guys are running with 37-38x multipliers so mid to higher 3's. Don't expect to be able to sustain 5ghz 24/7 because you will have stability issues

 

Oh no, I just need to be able to go up to 5GHz for about twenty minutes a day to test my Morrowind mods. The rest of the day I can be in the high 2GH/low 3GHz range as I mostly work in the Morrowind construction set. Ten to twenty minutes a day at 5GHz won't cause too much instability, will it?

I found these two benchmark comparisons between 6990m crossfire and 580m SLI and I can't determine which setup is more powerful and efficient for playing The Witcher 2.

I found this review which has pictures of the GPU details:
580m SLI
6990m crossfire

TESIII: Morrowind is a single-threaded CPU-intensive game so I want the unlocked i7-2960xm for overclocking purposes (although I read you have to mod the BIOS to do that in a Sager).
The Witcher 2 is very GPU intensive so I also want the best graphics card architecture. I just don't know whether to go with nVidia or AMD. What do you guys suggest?
This Alienware M18x offers i7-2960xm and a choice of dual 580m SLI or dual 6990m Crossfire. Which would be better for my needs? Radeon or GeForce?

My main games to play are Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 2... and that's pretty much it. I'm not that diverse of a gamer. Thanks guys!

 

i would get 580m SLI i think its faster and better

 

It makes no sense to me why you would need 5ghz to test a mod. Are you certain that is a requirement?

 

Even on a single thread, you'd be lucky to pull 5ghz on a laptop. The difference between say 3.8 vs 5 is not that much in terms of compute time, but it makes a whole world of difference in terms of stability, power draw and heat.

 

So what are you doing with Morrowind? I'm about 40 hours in on a replay with the Overhaul mod. Amazing visuals really. Only the stunted animations give away the age of the thing. BTW I love the G74 cooling design. Having intakes on the bottom of any laptop is pretty dumb in my opinion. My 10 pound Gateway 7805 requires a cooler to do any heavy lifting whatsoever.

 

Regaez and I are working Pelagiad Expanded for TESIII. Everybody's computer I've seen it run on or have asked to play it has had a very low frame rate in the exterior cells of Pelagiad. I don't need 5 GHz. I don't even need 2GHz. I'm sure I could play Morrowind on a 500 MHz processor. But the frame rate is so slow and clunky that it's terribly annoying and frustrating, as would be for any game I would imagine. That's all.

And yes, the overhaul mod is pretty amazing. But TESIII's animations are just awful. I hope the animation system will be revivsed and replaced one day by the engine rewrite projects like OpenMW or Project Aedra. Any ways, thanks.

 

Screenshots look pretty amazing. Nicely done! Bethesda should release the engine code so someone can optimize and make it thread aware. I've done some animation work in 3DStudio Max so I know what kind of massive effort is involved overhauling the animations.

 

They probably won't until Morrowind sales drop to 0%. But then they didn't release the source code for Arena or Daggerfall either. They're just a self-absorbed company in my opinion, whose head is getting bigger and bigger. If we had the source engine code, modders could do so many amazing things with Morrowind, I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Have you made any mods for Morrowind before?

 

No I was building a java game engine using JPCT and needed to do a bunch of modelling for it. The one character I build and animated for walking, jumping and flipping was pretty enlightening on just how much work it is. Took me about 3 days to get it right - even with the latest skeletal system. The biggest issue was keeping the model properly fitted around the skeleton so the vertices would respond properly to movement. I would probably leap out of the nearest window if that was my actual job!

 

I hear ya. I love modding for Morrowind as a hobby. But if I was told that I had to do it and to get it done by a certain deadline, I would probably be disgruntled and not want to work on the game. Either that or just do a very half-assed job. My passion in modding is interior designing and quest writing (dialogue specifically).
Any ways, I think the question in the OP was resolved. 580m is my preferable GPU choice.

 

I am neutral when it comes to Nvidia and ATI but as I came from the 5870M which impressed me I decided to stick with the 6990M and for the price difference its an easy choice.

My results

I do not see why I should pay £250 more in the UK for similiar power to get the 580M. Nvidia are good yes and the 1D maybe better but they need to sort out their prices.

 

I as well am neutral when it comes to Intel and AMD, but I went with a 6990m because it was only a 145$ upgrade on my Sager NP8170. Although I would have preferred the 580m the 6990m was a better bang for the buck.

 

And when Sager laptops say "user upgradeable", that means that if I get a GTX 580m and nVidia releases the 7xx series, I can just swap out the 580 for the new card like swapping out a hard drive with a solid state drive?

 

Depends. As long as the next-gen cards are MXM 3.0b and you stick with Clevo-sourced cards, then yes it is pretty much PnP.

 

Notebook check is a great resource to see how GPU's fare realtime in different games. They take there numbers from a variety of reviews, not just one.

Mobile Graphics Cards - Benchmark List - Notebookcheck.net Tech

Click on the GPU configuration you want to look at and scroll down to see how well they fare in different games.

 

I've looked through the forum for this information. I definitely appreciate the information guys. Still not 100% sure, but doesn't look like the 580M is worth $300 extra for the performance.

A little more research needed, but almost there.

 

Just get the 6990 and a SSD with the extra money

 

Yeah, that's another thought that's been running through my mind. I don't know what it is, but something is still screaming 580M to me. I'll probably go w/ the 6990M/SSD route though. It looks like its more than capable, and with a good SSD, should negate the speed/power of a 580M w/ 7200RPM HD, right?

 

The SSD won't give you more FPS but you laptop will be very responsive and quick I get like 15 sec start up on mine best upgrade ever by far is a SSD

 

Bumping for newbies that don't look before creating new threads...