8800M - worth waiting for?

I'm planning on getting Toshiba Satellite X200 this weekend, but serfing the net I found that in early June reports came about a 8800M cards coming out very soon.

8700GT seems like a good card, but I've read that it's a medium/high end card, rather than actually high end, like the 8800M will be. How much perfomance would 8800M gain over 8700GT? Is it enough to justify waiting for it?

So, my question is when do you think 8800M will come out, how much is an XPS like that going to cost and finally - is it worth waiting for, overall? Should I just get the X200 now. Some internet reports indicated that Toshiba will be upgrading X200 to 8800M or even SLI version of those too, but this is only going to happen in 2008.

What do you think?

P.S. Also, I've noticed that Toshiba X200 is running 8700GT 512Mb with DDR1... is this true? If yes, will DDR1 gimp the laptop at all or is this normal?

 

No one knows, but I hope it is similiar to how the desktop gpu´s compare to each other. There a 8600GT doesn´t stand a chance against a 8800. Note I said 8600GT so it is the same for 8700GT.

 

Currently, nobody even knows for sure if there will actually be a 8800 so it's a bit far feched to guess when it might be released..

 

Mmm, I googled 8800M and there have been quite a few reports on 2nd-5th June 2007 that nVidia will be making a 8800... Would you say these guys are not trustworthy?

8700GT is quite a bit better than 8600GT, right?

Also, what about the DDR thing? Do you guys know for sure what kind of DDR thing is in the Toshiba X200 (EU edition)?

Would you say that's it's better to just get X200 this weeked and be done with it?

Also, if considering 8700GT was, i think, released like 2 months ago or so, how long does it usually take for nVidia to release next high end card? I just need a rough estimate... Are we talking January 2008 or more like this time next year?

Sorry for a lot of questions, but these forums seem to house a lot of people who know everything about laptops, so I hope to find some answers here =)

Thank a lot for your help guys!

 

someone could correct me if i'm wrong, but i've read that the 8700 is just an overclocked 8600....not that much better.

 

True. 8700M GT is basically a overclocked desktop 8600GT, and it is slightly worse than the desktop 8600GTS.

 

If you are always waiting for the next best thing, you'll be waiting a while

 

I've read on these forums that 8700GT is just an overclocked 8600, but then again I've read that 8600 sucks and 8700GT is about as good as 7950GTX (i think)...

Also I've seen posts claiming that 8700GT can be overclocked a lot more than 8600...

The nVidia website also puts one as medium perfomance card and the 8700GT as a high end card...

As you have probably realised by now, I'm not too good with this stuff and after reading various forums and reviews I'm confused more than ever...

I know that waiting for the next best thing will take a while, but then again there is a balance... I want to get the best stuff for my money, cant be getting a new laptop every year...

Also, if anyone has any comments on X200 laptop in general, please feel free to enlighten me, cause I'm sooooo confused atm...

 

7950GTX performs much better than the 8700M GT in high resolutions. The 8700 only come close to it in lower resolutions, but the 7950GTX is still better. Only advantage of 8700 is DX10. For the X200 I think there is a review of it in this forum. Not sure if the X200 is different from the X205 but the review for X205 is here.

 

If you're main purpose is gaming you are better off waiting.

When/if the 8800m debuts you'll have to consider form factor. With the 8700m the laptops supporting it are pretty hefty so far.

 

actually, its not....not built on the same card and the 8700gt has a dual rank 128 bit bus, which it would assumed to be two 128 bit buses, so it can move more memory than the 8600gt...there is not really any reviews or reports on the 8700 so we cant say that they are the same at this point.

apparently this 8800m could possibly be the 8700gtx (ultra?) so there may be two version....but we really cannot say at this point....wait until the dell beast comes out and that will confirm it

 

Like everyone has already said, there is alot of speculation on this subject. Theres already talk of nVidia's 9 series, which, again, only adds to the speculation. The 8800M was rumored, but if there is such a graphics card, it could be an 8700M GTX, like narsnail mentioned.

The best thing, and really the only thing to do, is simply to wait. In due course we will eventually find out, but the information on a high powered mobile DX10 graphics card, is severely limited.

 

Not sure where you got your info in regards to the release date of the X205 with an 8800M. The review you probably read gave a release date for some 3D goggles of early 2008, which many people who didn't read closely have mistaken for the release of the X205 w/ 8800. If Dell releases their XPS w/ 8800 in September/October, one would be inclined to believe Toshiba would follow suit soon after that, seeing as how they already have a working demo model.

Simply put, wait. I'm in the same boat, looking at the same Toshiba, but it seems the same Toshiba with an 8800M is probably only 2 or 3 months away. That's not certain, obviously, but seems to be the best educated guess at this point, imo.

 

8700M performs quite well... it is usually heavily underestimated because of the early tests and miserable drivers they were run with.

As for the 8800M, (or 8700GTX) its all rumor-mill for now. Is it worth waiting for? No one knows... If its an officially overclocked 8700M, then no. if its an officially overclocked 8700 with a 256-bit bus? Maybe... If its got a few more shaders and the rest, perhaps a bit more....

Sure, you could wait... and you can continue to do so for however long you want... eventually better cards will come out. If you wait long enough, even the 8800M will be slow in comparison.

For now, there isn't a single release game out there I have trouble playing with little more than a few small tweaks on the 8700M at 1440x900.

If you gotta game on your laptop at 1920x1200, then get the 7950GTX (or SLI) or wait for the 8800m or at least an SLI 8700m.

Anything less can get by with the 8700m. (at least 1440x900 and 1280x1024, I am not sure about 1680x1050 as I cannot test it.)

 

yeah, to hell with it, i'm going for X200 this weekend...tired of changing my mind 10 times a day =)

X200 came out in Europe on 20th of August, if i'm not confusing anything, so I doubt toshiba will cancel it and make a 8800M version of X200 in october already... The colleg/uni season has started and now is the best time to release a laptop, so I guess no 8800M for now...

Fingers crossed...

 

I think the X200 is a good choice of notebook. Had it been available in Australia when I bought my lappy, I would have gotten one.

 

X205 looks like a great laptop choice. I doubt there will be an 8800m, especially so quickly after the release of the 8700m chipset. nVidia will want to tout that for a while anyways. Even if an 8800m did come out, they would probably price it too high to be practical, at least for a few months, otherwise they'd be competing with their own 8600m and 8700m

 

exactly...I'm lamenting the fact that ATi isn't even in the competition at all. Otherwise things would look alot better on the gpu front with regards to mobile hi performance dx10 cards.

It's reminiscent of Creative sitting on their cards because they know they'll just compete against themselves. Only time they'll release something significant is when a heavy hitter like Dell needs something new to push their newer laptops (*cough* 1730).

 

I think the Dell XPS will have the 8800m first. It seems like they pay lots of money to be first in line with new high end GPU´s, yes I consider the 8800m if there will be any a high end card. The 8700GT is in my opinon no high end card. Just look at the desktop GPU´s the only high end there is the 8800 series.

 

ATI has been very slow with higher end mobile graphics card for a at least 2 generations. They announced the Mobility X1800 and Mobility X1900, and they were released around 6 months later. The performance of the Mobility X1900 hasn't been great either, considering the performance of its counterpart desktop grahics card.

The same is true for current ATI DX10 graphics card. ATI may or may not be developing a high end mobile graphics card, but its clear that ATI is more than happy with the mid range they have very quickly released. Considering it wasn't that long after the inital launch of their desktop DX10 graphics cards, ATI has done a very good job of developing and releasing their mid range mobile graphics cards. That part of the market is what is going to earn ATI profit anyway.

 

well the 2600 series cards in most cases are outperforming the competition....the hd 2600 is better than a 8600gs, porbably as good as a 8600gt....and the 2600xt is better than the 8700gt and is supposed to compete with the 8600gt....so i would say there doing well but there are no reviews and very little laptops they are being put in

 

Due to the current nature of GFX design, it is difficult to tell when a "high end" mobile graphics card will be available.

A Geforce 8800 or HD 2900, both high end cards, absolutely obliterate the performance of the very best DX10 mobile cards. Even the best performing mobile card, the 7950, can't begin to compete with such power.

Now that GFX architecture has shifted to a largely dynamic "stream processor" system, performance understandably improves with the addition of additional stream processors. Other things, such as memory bandwidth, bitrate, and memory amount also account for performance, but number of stream processors is definitely a performance indicator within respective GFX lines.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but high-end DX10, "stream processor" style GFX cards are absolutely massive. They use a phenomenal amount of power (especially the 2900) and generate quite a bit of heat. I think the Geforce 8800 has something like 120 stream processors in it. The best mobile DX10 card, the 8700gt, only has 32 stream processors! What do you expect? You can't put a foot-long power hog in a laptop (I.E. 120 stream processors), it just doesn't work.


Before anything new is released, Nvidia and ATI must divine some novel method of either creating super efficient stream processors or reducing the size, power consumption, and heat output of their current models. Only then will such behemoths fit on notebooks.

 

Ok, here is a question then. If they(Nvidia and ATi) are somehow able to make super efficient stream processors or reduce the size, power, etc.. of those cards........would you think you would be able to upgrade to it if your a an MXM platform? I'm thinking about getting the M570RU with the 8700M and the only dislike I have about it is that it's not super mobile. That trade off is worth it to me if the laptop some what futureproof. But if future cards could not be used by the M570RU then I might get someone like the 8510w, 2090, or G1S. Those laptops are still plenty powerful and mobile. What do you guys think?

 

Assume you cant upgrade at all, and go for the best bang/buck ratio.
I got the Dell with 8600GT which plays WoW and EQ2 nicely for only $907.

Down the road say 1-2 yrs when the next 1-2 generations of video cards comes out, I could spend another $907 for another best bang/buck laptop.

Most upgradeable stuff will cost you $1600-1800 with no guarantee of upgrade. Spend half of that and you will end up with 2 laptops.

 

the hd 2600 xt has 120.....dont know if they are as good as the nvidia ones though

 

Some of the best bang-for-buck laptops are $1500-1800, they are just in a higher performance/quality zone than the $800-900 laptops. It all depends on your priorities and budget.

The 7950GTX or 8700m built in the 1500-1800 laptops will bury your Vostro's GDDR2 8600m in games (almost twice the 3dmark06 score) and more than likely will be more comfortable to use as well. (cooler due to more physical space)

if you are just typing things in Word and playing the occasional low-end game like WoW, or perhaps the mobility of a 15" laptop is a bigger priority for you then you are quite right... the Vostro is the better fit for that person.

If you are even asking about the 8800m, (the title of the thread)then the Vostro's "business" configuration with the option for low-end gaming is not even in the same league.

 

I see a lot of questions regarding upgrading MXM cards, now forgive me but this is a risky area to pin your hopes on, as Ice-Tea runs the only outlet I know that sells MXM cards, they are not exactly in your local Pc-World/Circuit City .

MXM was all but abandoned last year, I remember forums full of , "darn it, the chips soldered onto the mobo" posts.
(mine included, I so wanted to upgrade my X1400 to an X1600)

yes the biggie laptops may have been upgradeable, but availability of parts to the average Joe is not forthcoming, (I tried to build laptops from scratch as I did desktops, but becoming a proper OEM is the only way to get the parts)

on the 8800 front, the main thing I am waiting for is for the next card up that features a 256bit bus, thats the bottleneck breaker right there.

Its amazing the difference the memory bus makes, take my testing the cheapo Geforce 5200 64bit, and 128bit bus versions, the 64bit card may as well have been a geforce 2.

A few more shaders on the card wouldnt go amiss, so hopefully we will see a high end notebook solution soon, that will top off the current crop (which is still excellent, my nephew just got an 8600m gs 256mb notebook, and that thing makes me jealous )

so 8700gtx (256bit bus) will do me fine waiting and saving actually maybe ready for Christmas eh?

good hunting guys

 

The 2900 has 300+ but it seems that, as a rough ratio, you'll find 3 ATI stream processors to Nvidia's 1. Which is why you'll find that the 120 stream processors in the 2600 (120/3 = 40) cause it to perform similarly to an 8600gt (32 stream processors).

This doesn't mean that ATI has less efficient stream processors, it's really a difference in how they count each stream processor.

 

no, all it means is that its in kind of a dual chanal mode (like computer memory), it only increases performance by alittle bit. Its basicly the same card, only overclocked. The tweeks to it will improve performance, but not by a whole lot.

 

MXM was abandoned? Wow... I must have missed that.

 

Me too I guess....

 

Hi ice-tea and gophn
I must stand corrected, the abandonment was rumoured, when I was investigating building machines.

I was trying to buy mxm cards to fit onto mxm capable motherboards, OEMstyle

I went onto several foreign forums to try and do this and there was talk that to keep laptops thin and light , which was where the market seemed to be going at that time, big manufacturers like ACER were not bothering with the technology.

Maybe I misunderstood some of the news that was out there

anyway this was the kind of headline grabbing chat I was seeing

http://digg.com/hardware/NVIDIA_and_ATI_Talk_About_MXM

 

Yeah, I read that too. I agree with the author that MXM is not what it was supposed to be but it is far from dead. Very far.

If you still want to try out MXM cards and motherboards, drop me a line.

 

thanks......wasnt too sure what it meant, i assumed it was something good though

 

Is it True 8800 Cards will be Out by Dec 2007 ?

 

The best 8600s (G1S) overclocked get under 4500 3dmark06 (at 1280x1024) with a 2.2 C2D...

My 8700 gets 5194 3dmark06 (at 1280x1024) and does not overheat with a lowly 1.8 C2D....

Remember 3dmark06 has a processor-only component...


If you think the 8700m is just an overlocked 8600, you are clearly not looking at benchmarks... The 8700 is closer (at 1280x1024 with 5194) to a 7950GTX at 5500-5600 than it is to the OC'd 8600 with GDDR3 at 4500.

Perhaps "massively overclocked" will work...

Let's face it Tangent... you don't know what the dual-rank 128-bit means any more than we do.

 

Its difficult to say. Some people say it will be, and others say it could just be an 8700M GT. It could be likely that an 8800M card can be released when nVidia can shrink the core, but unless that happens, cards similar to the 8700M GT will most likely make an appearance. A truely powerful DX10 mobile card will only happen if nVidia can release something built off the desktop G80 core.

 

Thanks for that Ice-Tea, if it weren't for my current career change I would have snapped you up on a bunch of components, maybe in the near future I might have some time to do notebook building, but becoming an Oracle DBA is going to eat up whats left of my brain right now

Looks from articles in the Inquirer that November sees launch of new chips , with them appearing Q1 08, kind of

I suppose since quake wars can run on a Geforce FX5700 and an ATI 9700, I might get by until early next year.

Not forgetting for you UK guys that the best month in the year to buy kit is APRIL. Good old tax year end.
I have always found components to be at their absolute cheapest during that month

 

honestly, all the reports from June, have reported that we would get it sometime this Fall 07 quarter. However, since we are now in the beginning of September, and still no signs of it..i think it is safe to purchase your chosen laptop now. I have learned that if you keep waiting for the newest and best laptop, you will never buy anything because of how rapid things change in this industry.

hope this helps.

 

Hmm I really think it might be best to wait if you want to get a full out gaming Laptop right now. I think the 8700 and 7950GTX are both great, but I personally don't think either of them will be card you will want to have when real DX10 games come out (aka crysis and games after that)

 

If you wait, you will wait many many months. If you can live with whatever PC you have at the moment, then fine, otherwise, you will always play the waiting game.

Plus while DirectX 10 games like Crysis will be out, even the next iteration of mobile GPU probably won't be much more powerful than the 8700 or 7950GTX, or at least make a significant leap to offer much better performance.

 

I bought an x205 and the 8700m is pretty decent. Not stellar, but it does the job in most of the games I've played fairly well. To be honest, I bought this notebook to tide me over during this current tech transition.

I wanted to splurge on an Alienware M9750, but as I see it, a new breed of laptop graphics cards are coming out. But not only that: processors. A new line of 45nm processors are coming out right around the corner, which means better performance and smoother cooling. CPU and GPU benefit one another quite nicely.

In my personal view, that the 8700m is a good placeholder card if you need a new laptop *now* with some decent lasting power, but there's a lot more potential coming out just down the road. Yes, there will always be something better down the line... but the current "new generation" is still filtering in with the heavy hitters just off the horizon (like mobile C2D Extremes).

I'll ditch my 8700m the moment quad-core laptops become the norm. It's too early in the transition phase to really make a decision. Then again DX10 games from the "ground up" are supposed to kick on a DX10 platform, so the 8700m may surprise us. Then again, DX10 enabled games have sucked thus far for performance, so we may be dead wrong. =P

 

Don't expect many "ground up" DirectX 10 games in the next year. All the upcoming big titles may have DirectX 10 options, but all will run with DirectX 9, and probably without much degredation in visual appeal.

 

Crysis DX9 to DX10 is a big enough difference to sell me on a DX10 card, the lighting is just ultra realistic.

 

By the time quad-core laptops become the norm, octa-core chip and 30nm will be just around the corner.

 

Clevo D900C/D901C (Sager 9261) is fully supporting Quad-cores (G0 stepping).

 

there will be new arcitecture by the time you would think they release a "octo core"

 

This is true, but the 8800M/8700M Ultra may take a while to come out. Rumors are still tentative to about November/December, so we'll have to see.

I'm waiting for the quad-core Penyrn enabled laptops come out before I jump up. I love my X205, but it's a temporary placeholder until the 8800M big guns come out. I'd love to combine them with a quad-core for sheer ultimate power.

And yeah, I know there's always something else just around the corner... but sometimes it is worth the wait.

 

So will we have 8800 Cards in Quad Core Laptops by 1st Q 2008 or will be latter than that ?

 

Quad Core notebook chips are probably to be expected around April/May (official estimates are "first half of 2008").

Considering that the adoption rate for new laptop gear may take up to two to three months by manufacturers (judging by the 8700M rollout, along with previous iterations of the 7X00 cards) then by the time most companies have their 8800M's rolling out, quad-core shouldn't be too far off.

So that's about half a year away, which is a long wait. But it's not like the 8800M's are available now, so there's a wait regardless.

If people need a laptop now, they're probably better off just going the 7950GTX route with a good C2D.