A tale of two Sagers: how important is upgradeable graphics?

How important is an upgradeable graphics card in a laptop? How good is the 860m?

I'm currently trying to decide between a safer np7358 and an np8268. For an extra 160, the 8268 is 1.5 pounds heavier but features an upgradeable pcie graphics card. How important is this? They both feature the gtx 860m. How long will the 860m remain a viable game engine? Is there anything out right now that it can't max out?

I play lots of older games (from arkham city and skyrim to max payne 1 and deus ex) and lots of modern multiplayer stuff (Dota 2, counterstrike GO, TF2, planetside 2). I want to be able to keep up with upcoming multiplayer stuff, and stuff like GTA V.

Thanks for reading!

 

Is the "non-upgradeable" version a Maxwell 860M? It will perform a bit better than the Kepler GTX 860M. But, in my opinion, you'll want upgradeable graphics. Even if you don't plan on upgrading, it will help with ease of resale, as people tend to like upgradeability.

The GTX 860M is a decent card. The Kepler version provides 37+ FPS in BF4 on Ultra (preset w/4xMSAA).

 

Wait...you mean the maxwell version will provide higher fps?

 

Yes by about 10%

 

I would get the Sager NP8268-S.. Its $1279 from XoticPC and best of all, it has a 4810MQ and a 870M which is faster then both.. 2-3 years down the road, you can upgrade the GPU and keep using it for a few more years whereas the 860M soldered Maxwell will be useless then..

 

What do you mean by that, Tom? As far as i read so far, GPU upgrading is barely possible in laptops, isn't it? Think alienware's are a bit of a exception here... Of course he could upgrade from 860m to 880m down the road, but laptop GPUs are hard to get. (ebay would be too risky to me though) and i wouldn't buy a used graphics card.

Unfortunately laptop parts aren't as easy to get as desktop parts. In addition to that prices are very unattractive and even after a couple of years stay on a very high level. Even 2 year old 680Ms (new ones) sometimes are offered on almost same price levels like 780m or 880Ms).
Newer generations would be quite hard to get to run properly as Clevo doesn't provide you with a new BIOS, do they? Therefore a new graphics card wouldn't be recognized. Maybe there a possiblities to get modified BIOS. But either way it's a very uncomfortable way to go (especially if you aren't so much knowing about these things)...

 

It is possible to upgrade GPUs in this big Sager/Alienware/MSI laptops. The biggest problem is BIOS compatibility. If a manufacturer doesn't ensure it works, you have a slim chance of upgrading it. There are 3rd party BIOS writers, but you are rolling the dice on possibly bricking your machine. Even if the upgrade is possible, you then hit the money barrier. Typically a brand new top of the line MXM card is 600-800 dollars when it is first released, on top of any additional stuff you need (x bracket, new heatsink, pads, etc). Sure it is a nice feature to have, but I don't think it should break the bank. The MXM 860M is a Kepler 860M and it is significantly slower than the soldered Maxwell chip. But you would be handcuffed to the soldered Maxwell 860M, so the real question is what do you value more: cheaper now and won't be able to play the highest games in 1-2 years, or buy more expensive but not guaranteed updatability later down the line. It's generally best to buy the most performance you can up front, as they will subsidize the MXM upgrades as you are already purchasing a baseline card. Of course this means spending alot of money up front but it tends to last longer.

 

You can try adding 250 bucks instead I think you can get an 870m. That'll last you 4 or so years easily, at that point you can get another laptop 2-3x better at the same price.

 

If you want upgradability, you're better off with an Alienware than a Sager/Clevo machine for the simple fact that as Tsunade pointed out, you need a BIOS that supports the video card in those machines.

You do not need one in an Alienware machine, however. My old M17xR1 didn't refuse to POST when I put a bricked 880M in it for flashing while my Sager said go to hell and wouldn't POST, just powered on and shut back off.

With that said, Maxwell will be the last generation that is compatible with the old MXM standard from what I understand so if you're looking to upgrade in 2-3 years, you'd be stuck with a Maxwell card when Pascal *should* be out.

Buy the performance you need now. These cards hold their value on the second hand market too so if you want to upgrade later and you have a compatible machine, you can sell your cards and put the money towards the upgrade.

 

Okay this has been super helpful. For one, i didn't realize the mxm cards still used the krappy kepler. It's also good to hear confirmation that mobile graphics cards are a pain in the a$$ to replace even if the option is open. The 870m is actually kind of unattractive, as it's only somewhat better than the 860m (the 860m can max out every game that exists at the moment) but it uses literally twice as much power. Seeing as how this is a laptop, efficiency is sexier than raw power, once you reach the level of 860m+.

Thanks for the responses, super helpful.

 

Depends on your definition of "maxed out" - the 860M doesn't produce playable frame rates in a number of games at 1080p

Review Nvidia GeForce GTX 860M Maxwell vs. Kepler - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

 

Yeah, you'll regret not going with the 870m. Power efficiency means nothing on mobile laptop - you'll always want to game plugged in. Doing so on battery is not an option for more than an hour or, if you're lucky, two. Trust me here, don't cripple your performance now just for this (well, that's an exaggeration but still). The 870m is significantly faster and is better value for money.

As for future-proofing the machine, it's easy. Don't replace the card, replace the whole thing. You can sell the laptop for at least half the buying price and then purchase a new one. It'll get you 50% off every time if you sell it within 2 years. It's what I do and has worked great so far. Gaming laptops are tailored towards enthusiasts and there's always one out there on a budget. You'll have no issue selling it either here or on ebay.

 

The 860m has far more overclocking headroom than the 870m so the gap is less than you think. Someone managed to get a higher fire strike score with an 860m than a stock 870m I think

Note this only applies to the maxwell version

 

Yeah but from what has been seen, they are EXTREMELY variable... Some chips do insanely better than others.

You should never buy a GPU on the basis of planning a certain overclock because they aren't guaranteed. You know what you're getting with the 870M.

 

Exactly. I have a friend who just bought a laptop with an 870m and he's super happy.

Plus, if you're posting on here asking about the importance of upgradeable cards, chances are it's safer to along with the idea that you won't be overclocking. It's hot that hard, but for someone new to all this, I'd always recommend a sure thing over potential future increases.

 

Board soldered chips are just a bad idea period. If the chip has issues... could you imagine? :|

I certainly wouldn't want that headache!

 

I think not. 870m= 680m. You won't be playing new games on decent settings in 4 years time on an already 2 year old card.

 

The 870m is like 10-15% away from the 780m I believe, and my 780m with a mild overclock plays practically everything at 60fps ultra settings(not x4 MSAA tho but who even sees the difference on a 17inch screen).

As long as you don't play the crysis or ubitrash ports of 2018+ I'm very confident this card will still run every RPG, strategy, action, MMO game for the next 4 years at 1080p/60fps med-high settings, 870m maybe 45-55fps. Also why buy a new GPU on a 4 year old machine anyway? just sell that thing for 400 bucks and get a new laptop with a skylake, windows 9, DDR4 ram and a GPU like 2-3x faster. You wouldn't use a gtx 780ti with a core2duo and DDR2 ram would you?

 

Shrug. Mine is nearly 5 years old... I fully intend to upgrade gpu again! Nehelem is far from dead thankfully!

 

Yeah, I agree. As much as I love monster power and overclocking, it have to agree with the viewpoint that age does not hurt anything if all you're going to do is play games on it as long as you have a stout GPU. Having an upgradable GPU is the price of admission IMHO. Having anything like CPU, GPU or RAM soldered to the motherboard severely diminishes the value of any machine in my mind and it gets tossed out as an nonviable purchasing option for me. If a Core 2 Duo or 1st Gen i7 provides all of the CPU muscle the game needs to work smoothly, spending $500-700 for a GPU upgrade is a lot better than $2,000 or more on a new machine with decent gaming specs. Having the older and weaker CPU is going to noticeably hurt the gaming experience in titles like those in the Crysis franchise and BF4, but for folks that don't play extremely CPU-demanding FPS games having a powerful CPU doesn't translate into a better game.

 

MXM cards are barely better, buying an OEM MXM card from the manufacturer can be as much or more than an OEM motherboard. Sure you can buy a used MXM card but you can buy a used motherboard too..

 

I'd much rather pull out a card than take apart my entire machine to swap a motherboard. MXM is a standard specification for mobile graphics cards (for all the good it does when only Clevo really follows it) that ensures compatibility across MXM systems. Motherboards are an entirely different beast.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

Then you simply OV and OC the hell out of the CPU I am currently on about 3610qm performance atm (in benchmarks) probably better in games. There is still more in the nehalem tank :thumbsup: For a single GPU 1080p setup I think it is sufficient. When it isn't I will bump to 4ghz and then change laptop.

 

There is truth in that, but in some laptops, removing an MXM card (like in some Qosmios) you have to pull the motherboard before you can get to the MXM card. MXM cards are better in most situations I agree, and that's why I bought my latest Clevo with one (P170HM). But I would say a good 40% of new members who join and ask about MXM card replacements clearly don't have much expertise in the area. If you are a power user, then you would know to get an MXM laptop vs someone who doesn't know much [like OP]. Also adding in a MXM card can introduce more complexities in diagnosing a video issue, I've had laptops with bad MXM slots, bad MXM cards, as well as bad motherboards.

 

not according to this NVIDIA GeForce GTX 860M - NotebookCheck.net Tech

 

MXM is great in theory, but in reality only helps a small percentage of users. It's good for gaming system builders, reducing inventory of motherboards that carry a half dozen different GPU's, and that's the main drive behind it, not necessarily for users to upgrade. It doesn't make a lot of financial sense to do so either unless you are OK being behind a generation or two of video cards where you can pick up the cards fairly cheap. Not to mention headaches with BIOS and vBIOS compatibility. Plus every couple of years there are usually significant changes or improvements in storage, I/O, and RAM capacities and speeds that make it worthwhile to upgrade the whole system.

 

I don't like having to off my laptop if I ever want a GPU upgrade so MXM is a must for me.

 

Mxm is changing next year. So this is a mute point now.

 

Next year? That's news to me...where'd you get next year from?

 

New motherboards with new chipsets. new CPU with new sockets. New ram ddr4 with new slot sizes. New ssd with new pcie interface. And we will have new GPUs with new mxm slots.

Next year will be a complete new system upgrade which we haven't had in almost 6 years. So buy now, and stop worrying about upgrades

 

Probably speculation based on Pascal, although with Nvidia's recent history of delays, I wouldn't expect any movement until at least 2016.

 

Yeah that's all I could deduce. Even 2016 might be optimistic the way things have been going.