Desktop RTX 4090 performance leak - Meaning for mobile 40-series?

Interesting performance leak for the upcoming desktop RTX 4090. Here is the video:



To summarize:

• The performance of the RTX 4090 is going to double the performance of the RTX 3090 at rasterization.
• The TDP is going to increase from 350W for the 3090 to 450-550W for the 4090
• The release date is going to be around Q4 2022 - Q1 2023

What do you guys think this means for the mobile 40-series in terms of performance?

I think that given that Nvidia will keep raising the power requirements and laptops are getting more power restricted the gap in performance between a mobile 4080 vs a desktop 4080 is going to be wider than the performance gap between a mobile 3080 and a desktop 3080 which is around 30-50%. Probably the upcoming mobile 4080 will perform somewhere between a desktop 3070 and a desktop 3080, and the performance difference is going to be over 70% between a mobile 4080 and a desktop 4080.

 

On a mobile platform, GPU and CPU powers will be budgeted such that overall system power will be fixed. More power fed to the GPU, less power available for CPU taskings. Maybe this makes a case for the hybrid CPU technologies where cores are divvied between performance and efficiency.

Something will give or future GPUs will become more and more gimped.

 

With power balance between CPU and GPU and all mobile GPUs this gen can't even reach 200W. Unlike previous gens. The only reason for that is to make laptops thinners and lighters and to make battery to last longer. While the trend for laptops continue the thin and light direction I can't see mobile GPUs to get closer performance to desktop GPUs. Of course I hope I get proved wrong.

 

I think laptops will just continue getting progressively more gimped and gutted with each generation that passes. The companies that build them have very low standards because the people that buy them have very low standards, especially as it relates to what kind of absurd nonsense they are willing to put up with.

 

Gaming desktops and laptops have diverged and while the differential in power is large, I'm not sure it's important anymore. In the case of gaming laptops, function follows form. Sure, the pursuit of being thin exacerbates the power limit problem, but we like the portability. Gaming laptops are specialized systems. In a way they are more akin to the nvidia shield and people are not lamenting and comparing it to desktop graphics power. The small size of gaming laptops are suited to resolutions under 4k, so 1080p-1440p is completely acceptable and there's often FPS to spare. Even the lowly 3050Ti, which would be in laptops under $800 were it not for the chip shortages, outperforms at 1080p on high settings much of the time. The long term trend is already apace for laptops to be getting half the power a desktop, but only needing a quarter of it. Graphics, so far as pushing pixels and textures, can be done with sufficient detail by most currently offered GPUs. RTX will take over lighting effects and consistent full 4k capability will trickle down to laptops soon enough, like by the end of this console generation.The gaming desktop/gaming laptop power differential will always exist, but it has pretty much ceased to matter.

 

It would matter less if they malfunctioned less. The poor thermal management and irrational obsession with shrinking form factor and throttling to accommodate defective engineering makes saying it doesn't matter more difficult.

 

At least laptop gpus are improving, it's just the deceptive naming that is the largest issue imo. Someone sees they can get a 3080 in a laptop and assumes it close to the same as a 3080 desktop version, that's just criminal misrepresentation by nvidia but the "corporate person" can get away with pretty much anything they want, no death penalty or prison for them.

 

I'm coming to realize that the GPU for GPU's sake is less important than the availability of drivers. Of course lame GPUs won't be able to cut all brands of mustard. I'm going to experiment with my 1660Ti laptop with current driver and see if it survives long enough for Nvidia to drop driver support. I noticed this recently with AMD's decision to commit the older desktop GPU hardware to the landfill. As long as the last driver update is still OK, then I should be OK too. Once game optimization becomes the only way to play the game, meaning older non-optimized hardware fails to perform adequately, then it's time to change.

My focus is prioritizing resources for desktop performance; then using my cheap laptop to tide me over while I have to be away.

 

Well this really sucks if it turns out to be true. I was really hoping the RTX 4000 series GPUs would fix the stupid performance gap between laptop and desktop GPUs that got reintroduced with the current Ampere lineup.

I guess it's time to build my own laptop. I know I keep saying this, but one of these days I'm going to get frustrated enough to actually go through with it.

As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

 

Poor thermal management is not really a new thing in gaming laptops. My first was the Toshiba SLi1 and it had one set of copper pipes going from the CPU to the two GPUs that it was sandwiched between before getting to the single exhaust fan.

...it didn't just keep my coffee warm, it kept my coffee hot.

Companies cut corners, problems arise, changes are made to address the problem, improvements are made. It's a vicious cycle.

 

Plus even when it looks like these OEMs are doing something right with regard to thermal management (eg vapor chambers), most of them still manage to screw it up in some form or another.

 

I think intel heaters/wasted watts are a huge problem here, I mean for the same level laptop gpu, ie 980m 100w and a 1650tim 50/55w it's half the power due to tech progress, at 150-200w laptop card but with heavier/thicker body for gaming why can't they get to at least 15% less of a desktop gpu same model #? Huge 400w power bricks fine. Do the rt/ai cores make that impossible? I'm not sure how much more power a 2k+/high hz screen would be though. Still even with my lowly 2060m I can get 2k/60 in a lot of games, even new ones that are not graphically intensive so it's still impressive as to the actual performance you can get from a xx70 laptop gpu to me anyways.

 

The underlying problem is the fact that OEMs are not building their systems to match the needs of the components. It is not so much that some parts run hotter as much as not taking the appropriate steps to design a system to accommodate the components selected for the build. If they offer a thin and light turdbook with an 8-core CPU running 4.8GHz and a 3080 GPU, then turn around and cripple the power limits, and then build an underwhelming thermal management system that fails to control the temperatures, then gimp the firmware to keep it from pulling as many watts as it needs to run full blast, then that product is an abject failure and a pile of garbage. If they can't make it thin and light and run right, they need to make it bigger, heavier and thicker, or tone down the selection of components to match what the chassis and power delivery can handle gracefully. Having top end specs for bragging rights in a system that overheats, throttles and malfunctions is totally worthless.

---

Stated another way; it is easier to respect a disposable Chromebook that someone purchased for $300 to do web browsing and email if it does what they need it to do with no performance or reliability issues than it is to respect an expensive gaming turdbook or thin and light business laptop that costs an arm and leg that overheats, runs like crap due to throttling, acts as a space-heater that roasts your private parts, and cannot be repaired, serviced or upgraded because it is an over-priced one-shot wonder that ultimately needs to be tossed into a dumpster before you're ready to purchase a replacement.

 

There's no impetus for them to do that though, people seem to have a lot of money to waste nowadays(man where'd I miss that boat lol) and they do so right into the waiting arms of these wolves. That level of care in building a laptop SHOULD be the norm totally agree as a mech eng but it's usually the financial/marketing management guys that limit all that for some target on a spreadsheet somewhere etc More testing, more research, more materials science, more nuance/art to it.

 

All they need to do is convince a few of their "friends" on Facepoot and Twatter that it is something they should buy and then it sells itself regardless of how crappy it might be. Almost nobody notices that it is garbage, and in the rare circumstance that someone does, they do not dare to say anything because it might be met with resistance from the sheeple that believe everything they are told is accurate.

It is very much like the children's story "The Emperor's New Clothes" with a modern twist. Anyone who plays the part of the child and dares to point out that the dude is naked is labeled a racist hater that needs to be cancelled. The sheeple are so stupid they don't know how to accurately define what it means to be racist and they are the real haters because they want to cancel anyone that has an opinion that doesn't align with theirs. And, they keep selling more garbage to everyone that loves the echo chamber.

 

Yeah slander, dullness and delusion are at probably the highest it's ever been in the history of the world. Allow over time a group of psychotic insane people bent on total domination complete power with overwhelming tech, basically the ability to edit peoples whole personality at will, plenty of idiots on board or sickeningly ignorant(a few on nr no doubt) and other tools and you have only the abyss.

 

People like light and thin laptops and are voting with their wallets; folks need to make friends with that because it's not changing anytime soon.

Most sought after thin and light and have for years which is why those buyers are the meat of the market. They will not want to carry around a 400 watt power supply; if anything, they want them to get smaller. I can go on in the same vein but I've already posted such on the 30 series thread. That puts me in good company though because it's in response to the same arguments posted on that thread. We are not average or even close to average: Basing your thinking from time here is both confirmation and sample bias.

Let's face it, most of you are smart people, you had to know this was coming: Both the Nvidia end and that thin and light is here for the foreseeable future. Is there any purpose to this other than to complain?

 

You're right, this was predictable and should come as no surprise to anyone. I certainly do not have a surprised look on my face. I had my exit strategy prepared in advance.

However, one should never accept anything they do not agree with. To do so betrays one's personal standards and violates their conscience, if they truly possess either of those things. Quitters never taste victory, they only become slaves that live a miserable life of compromise. Even in the face of defeat, the pleasure of exacting vengeance is more satisfying than surrender.

Acceptance also ignores the fact that what is being offered is, in most cases, defective garbage. While there certainly are physical limitations and unavoidable consequences inherent to diminishing form factor, form factor alone doesn't dictate that shoddy engineering and poor quality control are inevitable. A vote of "no" with one's wallet is totally valid, and it is erroneous to assume opening one's wallet constitutes a "yes" vote. In some, perhaps many, cases it represents little more than a symptom of ignorance. Popularity is never a barometer of virtue or intelligence. It is often a litmus test proving the opposite has become common.

In addition to taking a stand based on what one believes to be good and right, it is also a line of defense against spread of the deadly Sheeple Herd Idiot Trance brain disorder that occurs organically from lack of use. If only a few people can be rescued from that tragic cerebral disease, then it is worth it. All lives matter. So, yes. Complaining serves a valid purpose as well.

As I did several years ago, many have abandoned the pathetic notebook scene and are rediscovering the bliss of desktop ownership. For many of us, that is where our passion for PCs was first born and forgiveness is available to all who will repent. More are starting to pay attention, and more will follow. Micro$lop's degrading product model is also facilitating death by a thousand paper cuts for many PC enthusiasts, so blame for the degradation is not exclusively earned by those engaged in hardware whoredom.

 

Much like growing old your acceptance or lack thereof is meaninglesss in the grand scheme. That said it isn't for me to decide what does and doesn't get said here and even if it was up to me I wouldn't try and restrict the conversation. I'd like that to be clear up front. I've been on online forums since there was such a thing and never put a single person on ignore. To me a forum is about giving help, getting help, sharing a passion with like minds. To that end another thread where we beat up the corporate scumbags isn't necessarily a bad thing and I enjoy the often humorous takes many posters have on it. But is it useful? I'll get back to that.

As to your thoughts I agree with many of them but some fail to hit the mark. People by and large do like thin; the question has been asked and answered, people have voted with their wallets, thin won in a landslide. On the other side of the coin I fully agree that corporate business practices have become unethical at best, and at worst, should have both civil and criminal penalties attached.

To go back to the beginning let's consider giving a beating to those corporate scumbags. It's fun; I give you that one up front. You get to blow off steam. You also lose information. In the middle of all the 30 series bashing we engaged in here it seemed rather clear that it was garbage, we were being cheated, only a fool would buy it. I myself had been planning on upgrading this cycle but had decided to skip it due to how poorly I perceived it. As it would turn out my 1080 equipped laptop died and I had to buy in, so I did. Turns out that 3080 is massively better than the 1080 it replaced and I would have upgraded without the slightest hesitation had I known. I probably should have, known, but it was lost in all the noise. That's what we gave up; an objective examination of what was on offer and how it worked in the real world. We sure gave it to the bad man though; really let him have it.

 

Agreed, to come on here and complain about complaining is nonsense but that particular garrish smokestack blows a lot here lol At least there is some clawing back of lost freedoms/performance via a lot of the helpful hacks and guides here, to espouse just going with the flow in all cases is also nonsense, a real thing is that the manufacturers/marketers only partially "give us what we want" "power of the wallet" it's more like a one way street of creating addictions "needs" based on manipulation of human frailty and then filling that up with products. But I think there's a good compromise between form factor and performance now when accurate expectations and accurate model numbering by the dominant player are there. It's just sad that this expensive stuff is now disposable and designed accordingly, apart from gaming yeah a 300 new laptop will pretty much do all normal stuff fine.

 

I did not complain about complaining: I asked what our purpose is here; is it just to complain or does that complaint have an end? If it does have an end is it the one we intended? I also at no time espoused just "going with the flow in all cases" as you suggest. The rest of your post is a tangent for another thread.

 

The bottom line is even the "upgradable" laptops lost the thread long ago where replacing the MXM GPU or LGA CPU was not really a reality. It seemed it was either an intended and dumped for either valid reasons like Intel/nVidia et al moving the goalposts or they just wanted to get "desktop" hardware in there and that was the vehicle and lets not let out the secret that you will not be upgrading..

 

I think the reasons are two-fold:

1. Greed: OEMs can't make money selling well-built, reliable notebooks that last for years and are capable of being repaired and upgraded with minimal effort. They make a whole lot more money selling unreliable, disposable garbage that people cannot upgrade and they have to replace because they are too expensive to repair when parts fail.
2. Greed: Follow the money. Because of the irrational obsession with thin and light trashbooks that the compromized zombie-kid horde wants, guess what they're going to sell... whatever moves the majority of product off of their shelves the fastest. It doesn't have to be any good as long as it is cute and has RGB.

 

On the upgrading thing... I was unable to do it at any cost with the one I just retired; no parts. Based on my reading replacement motherboards haven't been available for more than a year. This means that not long after the warranty expired on sold models from that year the replacement boards were gone.

I don't know that I would have been willing to pay to repair vs buying a new laptop but having the option would have been nice. It isn't enough that we get the right to repair; we need it to be possible to repair. No one is talking about that aspect of it but if you don't have both you don't have either.

 

Planned obsolescence is always part of the evil plan. That's just how it works. It costs too much to make parts available forever, and they shouldn't have to.

Forced obsolescence happens when they say, " sure, you can repair it... go ahead, we don't care... knock yourself out" and conveniently forget to mention service parts are not available. It's not old yet. They only manufactured enough parts to build the number of units they planned to sell, then moved on to the next bright and shiny object.

Then you have the flat-out, bald-faced lying, despicable sacks of dung that say, " Hey, kids! Look! Here's the world's fastest laptop that is upgradable, blah, blah, blah..." with no intent of making any parts available for upgrading. They also built it with a proprietary GPU form factor (an abortion in its own rights). They also lied about it being the fastest, among other things.

Then they have the gall to say, " Nobody upgrades laptops." Of course not, because the bastards that build them make it impossible (no parts available) or impractical (ludicrous pricing on what is available). May God have mercy on them. I sure as hell won't. Hold my beer while I crucify them.

Sadly, this is truer than anyone with a functional brain and soul would like it to be. Reality sucks, and the opposite should be true. +5 Rep

 

Dell take it a bit longer. They want to buy back your one or two years laptop if it "still works" (has to work) in a trade-in program for own in-house repairs. This also help to cut cost in the whole chain.


It will be cheaper for the OEM offer you an old refurbished machine/or repair what you have, put together of old used parts than give you a new model if you used the expensive Extended Premium warranty. Same time they can sell new machines to those that jumped into the Trade-in program to help with parts. See. They can keep spare-parts at minimum. Just part-out old machines.

 

You can probably get more for your old Dell junk at a pawn shop or a yard sale than what they'll give you. But, $850 for a $4,000 laptop seems fair.
Think about the poor little goober that is still paying on his maxed out credit card for the next 15 years at 21.5% interest. He just had to have that Alien though.

 

I could see it for people who don't want to deal with the hassle of ebay or (God forbid)Amazon AND want another Dell from Dell. Note that it says it's only for credit to buy from Dell, no cash out possibility, ugh You'd get more I'd think from those two online doing it yourself than brick and mortar shops. It's another available option though. But like car trade ins it's a bad deal in general.

 

A little tidbit of nothing good for the mobile side.

https://videocardz.com/newz/next-ge...avi31-might-both-draw-more-than-400w-of-power

Estimated Power Consumption [AMD]~ 450-480 watts, [Nvidia] ~ 420-450 watts

*...for the flagships

 

And if they increase TDP also for xx70 and xx80 we will see mobile graphics even farer behind. Maybe the mobile top dog can match an xx60 non Ti in an good day

 

I wouldn't want these cards in my desktop either if this turns out to be true. These are very inefficient cards, which would significantly increase my energy costs. I'm not a fan of that.

 

I imagine you've all read that Cali and some other states are regulating PC power consumption in the consumer market now; I'd expect that to continue and spread throughout the nation. And yeah, I know the types here will easily get around it but most people will not, they will buy whatever the OEMs are selling. There is no question that something has to give between the competing interests; what makes it fascinating to consider is that the mining market continues unregulated both federally and in all 50 states insofar as power consumption. Think about it...

 

I think the solution is to outlaw consumer desktops altogether.

...seriously.

Also, laptops should be limited to 230w and by something like 120w by 2030 (...plus similar for consoles). We should encourage a shift in production until it's nigh impossible to find a CPU more than 25w. I really doubt I'd notice if my G14 matched the 2060mq to an AMD 4700u/4800u instead of the 4900hs in most games w/o a FPS counter.

 

Shhhhh.... Don't give them ideas!

 

Well Said!

 

Maybe we will see the end of nvidia's greed regarding push you over on next gen castrated mobile graphics cards before you have to. The same for notebook OEMs who follow same paths. Let them burn in with their slimy thin gaming-laptops with 100% castrated graphics cards. Yep, The highest perfoming 3080 mobile have almost half the TDP vs the desktop version of same cards. The worst one have around 1/3 of the TDP.

Next-gen Thunderbolt 5 reportedly leaks, super-fast 80Gbps transfers await us neowin.com · Aug 1, 2021

The next-gen Thunderbolt 5 specification has apparently leaked. The new interface could be doubling the throughput up to 80Gbps compared to 40 on the current gen, and will continue to use USB-C.

 

It's cheaper and more *politically profiting* to pass a law rather than update the 60-70 year old electrical grid .
Politicians look after themselves first, the lobbyists second, and the public is lucky to get a sidelong meaningless glance, if that.

Irony:
They've proven the outdated electric distribution in Northern California causes brush fires.
They've seen first hand how the outdated grease used in windmills causes widespread power outages in Texas (yea, grease freezes and solidifies) and I doubt it has been fixed yet.
Whats next ?

 

There was nothing outdated about the grease; what they used works fine when it's warm; Texas decided they didn't need to purchase cold weather packages that include built in heaters, de-icing, and of course, more expensive synthetic grease designed for use in below freezing temperatures, among other things. On the main though, you're not wrong: The grid needs work. Not just the infrastructure; we need to much better regulate it. Probably outside the scope of this conversation; I was just pointing out that whole some PCs are facing regulatory controls, others are not.

 

Like any petroleum product, PB will get more viscous in lower temperatures, but it does not freeze. He said for that grease the low temperature that it would still be effective is 0 degrees F. For colder temperatures the best option is the biobased white lithium grease # L10308 good for 40 degrees F below zero.

What temperature does gear oil freeze?


For Motor oil, Gear oil and Hydraulic Oil each has a different freezing temperature range. For instance, Motor working oil (10W30) freezes at –20°F, but from 50°F, to 0F the viscosity of the oil becomes more and more difficult to handle. With Gear oil and Hydraulic oil it's freezing temperature is set for –10°F.


seems a bit cool for texas lol....i love it when people spread trolling misinformation

 

He didn't say anything about freezing; nor did I. But if you want to bring it up regular old El cheapo petro grease gets like a soft clay or putty in the way cold, I've seen it with my own eyes on sites in Alaska and other colder places. It goes without saying that it loses some of its lubricative properties and you'll usually see a synthetic grease spec in those environments. As to oil I once hoisted a barrel of delo 400 15w 40 upside-down in the air on a site in Alaska and couldn't get a drop out of it. The label said I should be able to, but uh uh. Hydraulic oil? I had a site where I had to keep men on the cranes around the clock working the handles whether I needed the cranes or not to keep from starving the motors when I did need them because the AW32 wasn't getting along with the ambient temps.

Wind turbines are demanding pieces of engineering and have to work out on the pointy end of the stick. The experts know a thousand and one things you or I don't even know we don't know but often as not they've never been out doing what it is they talk about: It's how you end up looking at a barrel hanging in the air thinking, "flows at this temp my ass." Cold weather packages are lubricant specific; including the grease, and that didn't happen accidentally. That doesn't mean your wrong, I'm doubtful the grease played a part at the temps they had in Texas but certainly were no way "defective" as stated. The real root cause is that they rolled the dice on not needing the cold kits and lost the gamble.

 

Sounds like you guys think automotive, truck, and tractor are the only markets for lubricants and greases.
Try to envision the windtubines blades....100-300 foot long (depending on actual turbine output).
Now grasp the fact that the blades rotate on more than one axis....it can vary the propeller blades angle of attack along with the normal rotation of spinning the turbine.
The windturbine must be able to flare when the wind is too high (rotate angle of attack so the blades are not rotated by the wind).
If you can wrap your head around the loads and forces the bearings on these thing go thru on a daily basis and be remotely accurate, you're better at physics than I am.
Sta-Lube, Valvoline, and Mobil1 are NOT going to cut it here folks, you'll probably need Dow/3M to whip up something with an aerospace flavor....
and it won't be silicone based....no moly....no graphite.
Gotta remember, there's probably a 1 or 2 megawatt generator right there so the lubes cannot be conductive either.

 

friction creates heat....


whats the grease called ill look it up..

Gear oil is the most important lubricant category. Synthetic lubricants used in the wind-power industry are full synthetics, typically polyalphaolefin-based products.


Poly-Alpha-Olefins (PAO)
22 june 2011
Question: Why poly-alpha-olefins are true 100% synthetic?

MITASU OIL expert opinion: To understand variety and classifications of motor oil it is worth noting that any motor oil consists of two main ingredients: one type or blended mixture base stock, combined with a unique system of enhancing additives (performance additives). There are four different types of base stock used for motor oil production: mineral oil of Groups I and II and oil of Groups III and IV. Group III is marked as "synthetic base stocks" although they may be derived from natural products by highest level of refining. Group IV base oils are poly-alpha-olefins (PAO) - chemically engineered synthetic base stocks.

Question: What is the main difference between poly-alpha-olefins and other groups of base stocks?

MITASU OIL expert opinion: Let’s consider the four most important properties of motor oil and draw a comparison between poly-alpha-olefin (PAO) based motor oil and motor oils from other groups:

– Freezing point (pour point)

Group IV has a lower freezing temperature than Group III and even without depressant additives (capable to lower freezing point even in mineral oil) it allows to keep the pour point temperature down to -50°C and lower.

source google and

https://www.mitasuoil.com/en/articles/80-poly-alpha-olefins-pao

 

It's called pitching, that changing of the angle of attack; I'm sitting more or less 100 feet from a pump doing all that you described but that also reverses. There are a dozen vibration analysis points on it used to monitor the bearings and other moving parts. Weighs tons; I've literally stood inside it. Try and guess how it got there? Lol Not every internet user is posting from their mothers basement and some have actually gone out and done something in the world.

The first thing I thought when I saw a wind turbine was that the servicing must be interesting at the least. I'm not going to go read papers to try and look smart but being in a field on a tangent I'm fair confident that the lubricants being used are about extending service intervals as much as possible while still getting the job done. You'd be looking for stability, less reactivity, that kind of thing.

This relates to the upcoming nvidea cards because at the rate they're upping the power ante your children are going to need that pump and the 1500 hp that makes it spin to cool their video cards.

 

@Mr. Fox Can I hire you for speaking engagements? I'm not sure what you do in your professional life, but you certainly have an incredible ability to succinctly make your point while objectively (mostly) supporting your arguments. Aside from that, I completely agree with you regarding the current (and recent past) of the high-performance laptop industry. Sadly, I find myself drawn to make the same mistakes you outline as I still need a laptop and yet can't tear myself away from throwing money at something that I realize is a compromise. If I were a better man I would purchase a laptop that meets my needs professionally and then purchase a desktop to satisfy my enthusiasm for building something I can be proud of. But alas, I am not that better man.

 

hard for you to take blame when every option out there available for purchase makes you a lesser man. theres literally only 1, clevo which may not fit yoru needs, and even that is gimped to an extent.