Direct X 10 and you.

Hey guys I thought I would post this info on DX10 and give my views on buying now.

What is Directx 10?
DirectX 10 is the software windows uses to interact with your graphics card, sound card and some other devices too. Most people care about the graphics element. When a games developer writes a game for DX10 they will be able to program it for all DX10 graphics cards, not having to worry about the make or model.

Why do I need vista for DX10 and why cant I install it with my current laptop?
Microsoft have stated that many of the changes to improve efficiantcy in DX10 require fundamental changes in the way the operating system works and would require a large change in windows XP without gutting the changes and holding it back.

So should it affect me buying a laptop now?
Vista will be able to run DX9L (all DX9 gfx cards are compatable with this) and office users will not be affected, you can still get all the fancy aero glass effects with a 6100/x200/GMA950 upwards.
To the gamers, the developers woiuld not drop DX9 too fast as they would cut themselves a large part of the market, however this time around they are going to be keen to move over.
DX10 and DX9 are different from previous changes, where before from DX7 to DX8 it was a change of features, there are some fundamental differences and this will make incorperating DX9 harder than its been before with old versions which just required turning off effects for a large part and substituting them.

Is this a bad thing?
I dont think so, we should see dx9 lasting for a little time yet, the current cards might even last their time and be too slow before dx9 is dropped. DX10 is more efficiant so technically with the same chip with dx10 support it should give you greater performance meaning the lower cards turning on more eye candy.

 

Thanks for posting that, Meaker. It's a great summary of DX 10.

 

Thanks for the article, Meaker.

Does this mean a laptop with a decent graphics card bought today won't be able to run games on the lowest settings four years from now because the games will only be DX10 compatible? I was hoping to buy a laptop now and use it through college and beyond...

 

Cool, thanks for the summary.

 

Eventually the game developers will phase out DX9 (even DX9(L)) support, so when that happens new games will not be playable on your new system today. If you are one to like higher settings on newer games, you will probably be looking to upgrade your gaming laptop in the next few years anyway. You'll still be able to play your older games though.

 

So till when do you expect the Game developers so phase out DX9 support?

 

I don't see this happening for another few years. Around 2-3 which is more than enough time to savor whatever card you currently have. Gamers normally update a laptop within that time period anyways, so it shouldn't be too big of an issue. Next year will surely bring about the first games developed exclusively for DX10 and DX9L, with more to follow in their footsteps, but a full market shift won't occur for at least 2, probably 3+ years.

 

Well that all depends on how quickly people adopt DX10, they will support so long as a large enough part of the gaming community have DX9 only.

 

As far as I remember one of th e biggest improvments is at batch processing (As nVidia showed in the "batchbatchbatch" article , opengl was 1.7~2.3 times faster at processing batch jobs.At DirectX 10 the stupidity of the API is decreased so DirectX 10 should be as fast as OpenGL now (in batch processing)

 

We are also seeing the introduction of geometry processing, the geometry of the scene can be altered by the GPU now (before only the CPU could do this).

 

Gaming is a cruel and fickle mistress.

 

I know, I was doing the pursuit challenge in NFS:Carbon and I make this perfect 90 degree turn at like 120mph and WAM get hit by an SUV Heavy. Using my masterful skill with the directional keypad I quickly hit the handbrake to stop the fishtailing, slam on the nitro to avoid the 10 or 15 federal pursuit cruisers behind me, and run smack into a water truck hidden behind the SUV's. Argh 11 minutes into a 12 minute chase.

 

Well the ps3 has a dx 9 card.

xbox 360 has some dx 10 but is still a dx 9 card.

software will be written that is compatible with those formats for the next 5 years.

dx 10 games will be pc only. Very small market in comparison.

It stands to reason that even in a few years your dx 9 card will run that days software in some form even though not as nicely as the dx 10 version.

So I actually think dx 9 was the smartest one to jump in on from that angle, your hardware will not be completely obsolete the longest.

dx 8 cards they will be obsolete really soon. You bought in like a 6800 ultra you got the short end of the obsoletion cycle. within a year all the software for your pc was written in an xbox version and it wont run on your hardware.

not likely to even be a dx 10 console ever.

Dx 10 comes out when the consoles are brand new as well, likely to be a very weak pc gaming period.

 

Console graphics has always been quite different to PC graphics and my radeon 8500 lasted quite a while (DX8.1), a DX change is always a challenging period for upgrading.

Games will be ported, effects will be updated, but good ports always required work on the GFX engine, hense why games like Halo sucked because they were ported badly and the xbox uses a geforce 3 derrivative.

 

oh your radeon 8500 lasted years

but the 6800 x700 etc level cards are going to have a very short obsoletion period.

 

The x700 and 6800 have already lasted quite awile. The geforce 4 had a shorter life span.

 

I'm not sure if I am not interpreting you right, but you seem to be implying that the 6800 is a DX8 generation card which it is not. The 6800, using the NV40 series core, was the first DX9.0c generation card and has actually been at the cutting edge in terms of meeting spec standards the longest. In fact, the current GeForce 7xxx (G70 core) generation is actually just a revision over the NV40 core, not a new design. So the 6800 Ultra will be usable like any current GPU with the latest games until around 2008, which is when the first DX10 only games will likely start to arrive.

Meaker is right about the Radeon 8500 though. It was a quiet, but actually quite revolutionary design in that it was representative of what was to come. DX8.1 and SM1.4 was a nice introduction to DX9 and SM2.0, and it's really a shame that nVidia decided that since ATI came up with it they would take no part in it. Instead for the GeForce4 they tried to emulate the new features of SM1.4 in their existing GeForce3 implementation of SM1.1 to create SM1.3, but while they may meet the feature checkboxes, SM1.3 lacks the speed of SM1.4. Going their own way of course came back to bite them with the GeForceFX 5xxx series and their poor DX9 SM2.0 implementation. This meant nVidia's entire GeForceFX generation had to ironically, revert to DX8.1 and SM1.4 (like I mentioned it's not DX9, but it's better than SM1.3), which meant that the Radeon 8500 and it's Radeon 9000 derivatives were given a new lease on life.

 

So, is DX10 going to require a new graphics card entirely, or can certain cards (if powerful enough, of course) be updated to run DX10? Basically, will my X1400 ever support DX10, or will I have to someday upgrade my video card (is that even possible on the E1505?) to get full DX10 features?

 

DX10 requires a GPU that's designed to meet the spec. You can't emulate it with drivers. The performance would be terrible anyways. So yes, you will have to get a new laptop. I'm not sure if the E1505 has an upgradable GPU, but it wouldn't be for the faint of heart anyways since power and heat issues would come into play.

 

Nope, have to get a new card. (Which presumably also means a new notebook)

Also, DX10 really includes two separate parts.
One part of the package is all the under the hood changes. As people above have said, these are to minimize the overhead on certain operations (such as batching), or to virtualize the GPU so that multiple DX apps behave better when running side by side (because Vista uses DX for everything, it's no good giving one game exclusive access to the GPU), or in extension of this, to improve stability.
All of this absolutely indisputably requires Vista, simply because it requires Vista's driver model.

The second part is a few entirely new features (mainly geometry shaders).
That *could* have been done on XP. And in fact, OpenGL will support this exact feature under XP. But MS thought they'd bundle it all together and use it as a reason to get people to upgrade to Vista.

In other words, under XP you can still get the new features (At least if your game uses OpenGL), but you won't get the DX performance/stability improvements. (Then again, OpenGL didn't suffer from the same performance limitations in the first place, which makes this less important)

So I wouldn't be surprised if OpenGL starts getting more popular again over the next year or two. Simply because it's able to offer functionality under XP that DX won't do.

 

The funny thing about OpenGL though, is that it seems fairly limited under Vista. I believe Microsoft implemented it instead of as a separate API, but as a subset of DX9.0L. This seems to be why performance with OpenGL games in Vista is poor right now since it's kind of being emulated until graphics card drivers improve. Still, I don't think OpenGL will ever be as fast on Vista as on XP.

So this kind of makes the future of OpenGL uncertain. It'll definitely bring DX10 features to XP eventually making it superior to DX9.0c, while on Vista OpenGL is limited as a subset of DX9.0L.

 

my mistake.

mobile 68000 has ps 3

mobile 6600 does not, x800 and x700 do not. 6800 gpu was a very wise buy indeed in obsoletion time

 

Hmmm... now why would MS promote an API other than its own? OpenGL will always remain a subset within Windows, unless some higher power compels them to drop DX for OpenGL.

 

ALL 6x00 series have SM3 from the 6100 to the 6800U. x700 and x800 do not.

 

Interresting thread (even if I have a very limited understanding of it).

What does this mean in regards to notebooks being released with dx10 gpu?

I read in some other thread that I could no longer find, perhaps july? Does that sound like an accurate estimate? Also will those gpu s be available only in high end gaming mashines for quite a while after (such as the 17' notebooks only)?

AT this time it is possible to get a decent gaming notebook for $1600/$1700. What is the estimate for the same price range lappys with DX10 gpus??? thanks

 

Nope, they changed that. OpenGL works like it's supposed to now, and should get just as good performance under Vista.

 

you can get a decent gaming notebook for $1000-$1300 (asus s96j)
or you can get an exceptional gaming notebook for $1500 (dell e1705 with coupons)

So your prices are a bit off.

If you configure the high end laptops with high end video cards run in excess of $2200, 6 months from now when mobile dx10 cards come out you could probably expect a similiar price.

 

Thanx for the reply. I guess when I stated a price I was specifically thinking about the Asus G1 or HP nc8430.

I guess my question is how long before we can find a 15.4' lappy with a price of $1600 with a DX10 capable gpu?

My desktop has some minor life left in it, so though my consumerism/materialism is seeking a hollow happyness in a shiny new lappy today, I can in all reality wait for several more months or 1/2 year before getting something new. I want something that is going to last for at least 4 years to come, so if in July 2007 I can get a nice lappy with a medium/high gpu that is dx10 compatible for the same price, then I might wait....

 

apparently the reason why DX10 mobile cards won't be out till july is because dell made a deal with nvidia.

http://www.guruofgaming.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=27

maybe ATI will put something out sooner? but they're behind with the r600...

 

i don't expect the gma 3000 laptops to cost more then 1600 when it first comes out,

though don't plan on playing any games on a gma, but it is dx10

EDIT: oh and i don't think Dx9 will die out in at least 3+ years. i know that the dx10 upgrade is different from dx 7-8 or 8-9 since those upgrades still meant backwards compatibility, but like 98+% of the world's population right now has a dx9 card.

i don't expect game producers to isolate that many potential customers with a dx9 card when it currently costs so much to upgrade from dx 9 to 10

 

How can you be behind on a card if the API and operating system its designed for is not even out yet?

 

I wanna buy a notebook
I can still wait for DirectX 10
Will a directx 10 notebook GPU be out by Febuary and at decent prices?

 

Well, technically Vista Business and Vista Enterprise Edition are out already with DX10 intact. Not too sure how many companies are going to be slapping 8800s in their systems though.

ATI is a bit behind though maybe not in a DX10 product persay, but a high-end product. I found the X1950XTX unsatisfactory since it seems to have too much bandwidth than it can use. They should have tried to bump up the clock speed to 675MHz, which combined with the extra bandwidth could have made it more competitive with the 7950GX2. They have done a good job in plugging the gab in the mid-range though with the X1650XT and X1950Pro. Which given how their previous mid-range products like the X600XT, X700XT (which didn't really exist), and X1600XT (good when launched but crushed once 7600 was released) were so disappointing forcing emergency products like the X800GT, X800GTO, and X1800GT, having a mid-range product that was originally designed for that segment is saying something.

 

Yea, the Intel X3000 in theory is a dx10 gpu. But guess u wouldnt want that thou.

 

I guess the question is when will we see dx10 gpu's in 15.4' notebooks that are comparable to todays x1600 or go 7700 (and whithin the same price range)???????????

 

nVidia isn't set to release mainstream desktop DX10 GPUs until February, basically to launch alongside Vista with availability later. With ATI a bit behind they probably won't have their mainstream desktop products out until March. Now these are desktop products, but you can infer mobile availability from them.

Essentially, with such late launch dates (late Q1), virtually all mobile vendors will wait for Intel to release the Santa Rosa platform so they can combine both refreshes together. So regardless of when DX10 mobile GPUs launch, Santa Rosa isn't likely to launch until early Q2, and it'll take time to get availability up. So you really shouldn't expect DX10 GPUs to be commonly available at decent prices until mid/late Q2 in time for summer. A late Q1 Santa Rosa launch is possible, but the Intel would be overlapping with LV and ULV Napa processors that don't launch until Q1 since Santa Rosa is also supposed to be launching with it's own LV and ULV variants. nVidia's plan's don't call for DX10 GPUs to completely replace DX9 GPUs until Q4.

This is why I'm planning on purchasing this holiday instead of waiting it out. I'm not that heavy a gamer anyways. DX10 only games probably won't really start in the highend until 2008 getting more common in 2009. By that time, I would extract the 2-3 years of useful life from a DX9.0c notebook anyways and can move on to DX11 one or whatever is next. (I believe DX10.1 is already specced out so hopefully current DX10 GPUs can handle that.)

 

Nvidia only has 2 DX10 graphics cards - the 8800GTS and the 8800GTX, both on desktops and both which cost over $400. They're the only models in the Geforce 8 lineup (no 8600, 8300, 8900, etc.)

I'd guess Nvidia would have to release more low-end DX10 cards in desktops before DX10 graphics cards in laptops become affordable or practical.

 

According to what I've heard, the goal is Q3 2007 for the mobile 8xxx series. And they'll probably start with the high end and slowly introduce lower models. It might be end of next year before what you're looking for is available.

 

Thanks guys. Those were the thoughts I was looking for!

 

Does anyone else think that the thread title 'DirectX 10 > you' would be more appropriate?

 

What's most important would be if game developers create DX10-exclusive games or not, and I don't think they want to do that when a huge percentage of gamers are still on DX9 machines. They wouldn't be that silly to go exclude the mass market that drives their business.

 

Most games coming out next year will be DX10. They would not be exclusive because the DX10 games will downgrade DX9.

Windows VISTA will be DX10 system. If the system does not have DX10 video card, it will use dx9c drivers. These drivers will down convert the dx10 exclusive games to dx9 video card...

 

It's mentioned in this thread and it's been mentioned many times in others, but that is not true. Drivers can not and will not make DX9 hardware DX10 compatible. The DX9 and DX10 APIs are both implemented independently in Vista and your hardware level will determine which API you will be using. Similarly DX10 code will only operate on the DX10 API and only with DX10 hardware.

The games being writen for next year contain both a DX10 codebase and a DX9 codebase. Both will be contained in the same disc and both will likely be installed with the game. Which code you are actually running depends on what hardware level you have. DX9 hardware will activate the DX9 code, only DX10 hardware will activate the DX10 code. There is no code conversion going on whether in the driver or otherwise and DX10 code is not backwards compatible.

The concern is when game developers will decide to stop including the separate DX9 code since including 2 code bases, which is almost like writing the game twice, is obviously not the preferred solution. That will obviously depend on Vista adoption, specifically DX10 hardware adoption. Ironically, the final cutting of DX9 support will more likely depend on Intel rather than nVidia or AMD/ATI since Intel IGPs do constitute the lowest common denominator. The faster Intel IGPs are DX10 compatible and offer remotely acceptible performance, the faster games will become DX10 only. So far with successive driver revisions Intel's GMA X3000 is shaping up nicely and the latest reviews show it fairing decently against the nVidia 6100 considering only hardware PS are activated right now. In all likelihood the first high-end DX10 only games will start appearing in 2008, with DX10 only games becoming mainstream in 2009.

 

As Itcommander_data said, DX9 and DX10 are in no way compatible. DX10 games can not automatically fall back to DX9 mode, and DX10 (the software) will not run DX9 games.

For that reason, few developers are going to take advantage of DX10 at all in the next year. And *no one* are going to go DX10 exclusive.

The former option is increases development time, and the latter reduces the amount of copies you can say by a ridiculous amount.

So for the next year or so, *most* games will be DX9 only. *Some* games will be DX9 and DX10. If *any* DX10-only games are going to be made, they're made by Microsoft-owned developers.

 

Game develoupers will stop programming sets of code for DX9 in a few years time, so you will be forced to use a GPU supporting DX10 such as nVidia's new 8 Series cards.

No, nVidia and ATI have not finalised their design for even their desktop chips yet, so it will be at least Q2 or Q3 2007 before DX10 fully hits the mobile platform. I wonder how a card with so much heat dissapation would cope using notebook cooling fans and heatsinks. The 8800 GPUs do ONLY use Dual Slot Coolers!

 

I dunno, Neat artical here

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20061113141458.html

Sounds like DX10 for notebooks is comming in with Santa Rosa. But could be wrong.

 

Although there have been some reports indicating late Q1, Santa Rosa isn't really meant to launch until Q2, probably early Q2. We'll no doubt see high-end mobile DX10 GPUs by then, but mainstream ones for decent battery life may be a bit longer. In any case, I'm not really expecting DX10 GPUs to become wide spread until Q3, and nVidia has been reported as not expecting the DX10 product line to fully replace the DX9 product line (ie. no more significant new products with discrete DX9 parts) until Q4.

 

I think we will just have to see on what next year brings us. game developers do know that a lot of us are still in dx9 architecture and are not just going to give up next year, poor example but look a valve source engine, dx6, dx7 ,dx8 and dx9 support all in one game, determain just like what ltcommander_data said

 

Well, would it be possible to buy a DX10-capable notebook in Q2 with a not-so-decent battery life, and just buy a new battery instead to compensate for that? I'm holding off just because I want to have my foot in the gate for DX10, and if the above is possible, it makes it a lot more worthwhile, imo.

 

The 8800GTX does not consume much more power than the x1950xtx or 7900GTX, I expect the midrange to be a similar if not better story.