How important is upgradeability for GPUs in laptops?

I'm currently in the process of deciding whether to buy a laptop or not with the Maxwell 860m GPU, I have read that the GPU is soldered on and thus cannot be upgraded. I have also read upgrading laptop GPUs can be too costly so my question is, is upgradeability important from a cost benefit analysis?

 

Cost benefit? No.

It will let you expand the longevity of your machine if you opt for a mid-grade MXM GPU up front and is sufficient for your needs. But only expect to be able to upgrade to the higher end GPU's that are offered with the laptop at that time because future cards may not be compatible (i.e. buy 860m now, 880m later, don't expect a 980m to work, although it may). A big part of that problem is the system BIOS. Alienware are good at keeping their BIOS updated usually, but you pay a significant premium over a Sager or MSI, which are less likely to have future compatibility. Thankfully the online community and many of the talented individuals offer modded BIOS usually to offer that compatibility, but it's not always as simple as plug and play.

IMHO, buy the most you can afford now, and if need be sell that system and buy a new one in two years or so as opposed to upgrading the GPU.

 

Is there a reason why the Maxwell GPU is soldered on? Will it be soldered on for every laptop that comes with the 860m card?

 

No. There are two versions of the 860m.

The soldered or embedded type is the newest Maxwell tech. It runs much cooler and uses less power.

The MXM type, for now, is "older" Kepler tech. It is clocked faster and uses much more power and generates more heat than the Maxwell version.

Both achieve similar performance, however, Maxwell is so much more efficient which is why it can run cooler and use less power. The MXM Kepler is really designed to fit in machines that are already MXM equipped and can already deal with a 100W+ TDP video card. I'm sure it's nVidia's way of exhausting any remaining stock of Kepler they have.

 

I was specifically talking about the Maxwell 860m not the Kepler 860m, I was asking why the 860m Maxwell was soldered on and why they have not given the option of upgrading the Maxwell 860m and also will the Maxwell 860m card be soldered on for all other laptops, so far the only laptop I have seen the 860m Maxwell card on is the Gigabyte P34v2 and the Clevo W230SS and I think they're soldered on for both.

 

Yes, 860m Maxwell is soldered on only (for now). When you say "option of upgrading", the 860m is the highest end Maxwell at the moment. Next step up is the 870m which is Kepler. Not sure how Razer Blade 14 and MSI GS60 and GS70 will manage to cool those beasts in those slim laptops either. And those are actually soldered on as well in those laptops.

 

I must say I slightly disagree whith the comment that it is not a cost-benefit thing. If you decide to keep a laptop for at least 5 years, after 3 years your gpu is seriously outdated. So you get a top of line new gpu $700 and you are great for 3 more years. Example: m17x R 2 with a 5870m would set you back about $3000 5-6 years ago. Today you add a 7970m/8970m for $450 and you are up to par with current games. Ok, you could argue $3500 would get you to laptops, ya, but you'd never have the best. So if you go for a longtime investment, it could actually be worth it. But that probably implies heavier and thicker notebooks. Any ways, just my opinion.

 

It would say;

It all depends on your usage patterns and such. If you play the latest and greatest, and you have no qualms about stripping apart your notebook repeatedly and are willing to dump 400-600 every year on a new MXM card, then likely an upgradable GPU is important. But if you don't play the latest and greatest, a soldered 860M might be the card that will last you awhile. Just as an example, I replaced my Alienware M17x R2 with a P170HM Clevo with a 6990M (almost a "3" year old laptop) but it still plays all the games I want on high and 1920x1080 (Dota 2, SC2, TF2). But I could have maybe achieved all that with a soldered GPU, but I ended up buying an MXM Clevo because hey maybe later I want to tinker with it, and a 6990M is still a decent GPU being ~2.5-3 years old.

 

I think upgrading GPU is only important for gamer-type users. I know - that's so obvious. But if you're not a gamer, then there is no need to do the upgrade the GPU. But i also think that, it would be cool if we can also upgrade the GPU on laptops. but that's just impossible given that laptops' GPUs are mostly soldered to the mobo. Even if some laptops don't have the GPU soldered on their mobos, i don't think the system will accept some random GPU. But maybe this could happen in the future, just like what is gonna happen to smartphone through "Project Ara" that allows users to upgrade each of the components on their Project Ara smartphone. Only time will tell.

 

As HTWingNut stated, mostly it is up to the BIOS if it accepts a newer MXM card. Alienware laptops generally don't have an issue, but again they have good support. Heck the R2 can accept GPUs 2 generations newer. Some casual gamers would be fine with a soldered mid range GPU, like a 760M/765M/860M, it can still game but gives them a discreet option over APU/iGPU.

Clevo are a bit more picky, but TBH if my P170HM was limited to a 6990M/580M, I would be happy, it provides enough horsepower for a single card that I wouldn't have to worry. BUT if the card did crap out, I have knowledge that I could replace the GPU myself and not buy a whole new laptop.

 

I struggled with this same question. Ultimately, I decided I'd rather have the maxwell benefits of cooler running and less power draw. Every laptop I've had previously had a built in graphics chip, and it hasn't bothered me. However, the ati chip in my old hp desktop replacement was the only thing that ever failed... But I had moved on to a new laptop already, and had passed it to a family member at that point. The intel graphics chip still worked.. So it just meant no more games.

I think NVIDIA chips last longer than amd anyway. I figure at the price point of the clevos with the 860m, I can just sell it and upgrade in 3 years.

 

This is a question you should be asking yourself: "How important is upgradeability to me?" We can't answer this question, at least not accurately. This is different for almost everyone. If you are fond of upgrading components in laptops and must have the latest graphics and highest settings for gaming, and have money to spend on upgrades, I would say that upgradeability is important to you (or should be). However, if you plan on purchasing a new computer every 18-24 months, then this discussion is over.

Keep in mind that a lot of computers (practically all of them) are upgradeable one way or another, even if that means replacing the motherboard (for soldered components). But, the more important aspect of this is whether or not the manufacturer voids your warranty completely if you do upgrade components, and if it's worth the trouble of doing so. For example, MSI voids your warranty completely just by breaking the seal on the case. Alienware does not void any portion of the warranty, but also doesn't cover the new parts.

 

The problem is I'm unable to answer the question because I'm not knowledgeable about computer hardware and am therefore unable to effectively assess the benefits an upgrade in the GPU would bring and whether it would be financially responsible to do so, also I do not know to what extent a GPU can be upgraded which is why I defer to the expertise of the people on this forum

 

I'm hoping my Clevo will accept the new 20nm Maxwell.

 

No. This is not true at all.

 

I think it depends on some MSI laptops. I don't think that applies to all their barebone/gaming laptops, I had multiple 15-16" MSI barebones with none of that nonsense. But I've seen normal MSI laptops with a void warranty sticker on the RAM door.

 

If you look at it strictly from a cost perspective, upgrading is cheaper. But also with a new laptop you also get the latest spec tech including wi-fi, USB, SATA/PCI-e, etc. I'm pretty hard on my machines,well at least the ones that are my primary ones personally, and would want to replace them every two years anyhow. Can't imagine to get one to live for five.

 

From what you just said, I would suggest that you avoid upgrading anything besides basic components (i.e. RAM and HDD's). Therefore, upgradeability is not all that important, per se, but it is always nice to have the option to do so. I suggest you determine what your budget is and then purchase a suitable laptop that meets all of your needs, and will do so for at least three years. Start shopping around now, reading up on different computers, etc. This summer would be the ideal time to decide on what laptop you want, and go for it. New hardware is going to be released around this time, and you may regret paying top dollar for something now that will be obsolete in a few months.

Yeah, Tsunade is right. Not all of them are like this, but the few I've owned were. The more expensive systems may not be like this, I'm honestly not sure. Ever since I learned that, I haven't considered purchasing MSI, and may not ever again.

 

Not important. Of course this is purely opinion, you will get various answers depending on needs.

 

After checking out my above post, refer to this section of the forum: What Notebook Should I Buy? - A Laptop Buyers Guide. I honestly believe filling out the form and making a thread will be of great benefit in your search for a suitable computer.

 

When you say 2 generations what do you mean exactly 580 to the 780? Also the upgrade is as easy as buying an alienware compatible GPU and plug and play? No messing with the flashing the Bios. If so that might be worth the premium for my next laptop, because I can't really upgrade every 2 years.

 

It does depend on how long you plan to keep the laptop, as well as how good of a deal the upgradeable laptop is to begin with. You'll need to plan to be keeping it for awhile for upgrading the GPU to be worth it, and similarly, the machine will need to be well-enough built that it's worth keeping awhile longer when you're ready to upgrade. There's also the factor of whether the MXM laptop is a similar cost to the non-upgradeable alternatives. If you're paying a premium of a couple hundred dollars or a couple pounds versus your comparable non-upgradeable model, it may not be worth it.

I personally don't put much of a priority on it since the laptops with upgradeable GPUs tend to also be the ones that are large and heavy, and which have pretty expensive GPUs to start with. I do like that my laptop has a removable GPU (since it makes it easier to clean its heatsink and I wouldn't have to trash the laptop if it failed), but the fact that it isn't upgradeable beyond what I already have doesn't particularly bother me, even if it would be nice to be able to modernize it by 2-3 years. But if I could get a midweight, midsize laptop with a moderate GPU to begin with and upgrade that later, all for a similar price, sure, it'd be better than a non-upgradeable GPU.

What I didn't realize until this thread is that upgrade compatibility is still limited with MXM. I thought the whole point of MXM was that you could upgrade to another MXM card of the same size later on, similar to how if you have a PCI Express slot on a desktop, you can upgrade to any PCI Express GPU later on. It's interesting, if a bit disappointing, that BIOS limitations factor in.

 

Replacing gpu in laptops in my opinion is unprofitable. The new card costs a lot, and usually there is no guarantee, or has a short. Today, laptops are not made ​​to work for many years. So buying a laptop for two years, then sale and purchase of the new model is in my opinion the best option.

 

Considering I started the thread specifically about the Maxwell 860m card which narrows my choices down a lot, I already have in mind a few laptops i might get (Gigabyte P34v2 and W230SS) but really I was always going in with the mindset that I'd either pull the trigger and get a laptop with the 860m now or wait for the 20nm mobile Maxwell to release.

 

There's speculation going around that NVIDIA may never release 20nm, at least not this year. Honestly, I don't even know anymore... Things are so messed up, it's difficult to even make a guess as to if this will happen, let alone when. All I know for certain is: other countries usually get these cards approximately 3 months before the States do. Keep an eye out for leaks and other stuff, once those start to arise, it's likely we'll begin to see them elsewhere. Nothing has been released about 20nm, in this regard.

With that being said, the 860M is a great card and I think it would suit you very well.

 

The GPU range least likely to see 20nm this year is x60/x50M as they're already Maxwell.

 

Again I can't see this statement as a blanket statement. I know plenty of people who still have an M17x R1 (first generation Dell M17x) because their gaming needs haven't surpassed that kind of machine. And many more with the R2 still (despite 1st gen Clarksfield being kinda crappy if you don't get the Extreme variant), but the fact the R2 can take at least 680M/7970M without massive headaches is pretty amazing. It's also the build quality of such machines where people haven't decided to jump (and being Flextronics ODM vs Compal, bleh).

Of course I would like a new machine every year, just not economically feasible, and TBH overkill for my gaming needs (really all the games I play run modified Source engine). If someone could release a somewhat gaming oriented laptop that has good build quality and decent mid-range GPU, that could be my next gaming laptop, I thought the Gigabyte/Clevo/MSI with the 765M 17.3" for like 1200 was ridiculously overpriced, so I bought a used P170HM with a 6990M for 700 dollars.

 

Very important.

Not for me specifically because I tend to replace my notebooks every year, but its a option I like to have with my notebooks. It also makes it easier to sell it, because the new owner can just replace the graphic cards without buying a more expensive notebook if he want more power.
Notebooks with soldered GPUs is only a good option for people who don`t care about upgrade possibilities further down the road and for OEMs forcing people to buy a complete new notebook if they want a better GPU. I wish boycotting the soldered notebooks would lead to OEMs starting to use more MXM based systems, but I can imagine there is just too many people not caring hence it wouldnt get the OEMs attention that you and 5 buddies boycotted their soldered notebook

 

Soldered GPUs save space. GPU upgradeability may be important for a small subset of people, but overall soldering enables thinner, lighter and cheaper notebooks than what would be otherwise available. MXM has it's uses by allowing OEMs to offer multiple GPU configurations with the same notebook chassis, but the end user is usually better off just selling their current notebook and buying a different one instead of upgrading the GPU.

 

I agree with you... I used to have a brand new G73JH and paid a lot for it and used it for 3 years and decided to upgrade. This time, i didn't have that much money to spend.. Really was thinking of getting a M17x R5 with 770M but saw the R4 with 7970M for almost half the price so I jumped and got this.. Given that, I don't play source games but more hardcore like BF4 etc, I really needed a good GPU...

 

I have a question on this: Considering the Maxwell 860M is soldered-on and obviously non-upgradeable, are the laptops with Kepler-based MXMs really any more upgradeable? The consensus is that the 860M/870M/880Ms are Kepler-based because NVidia is trying to unload all their old Kepler chips. When the 900-series chips come out (or even the mid-year 800M upgrades inevitable before Xmas), is it too big of a logical leap to assume they'll all be Maxwell-based? If so, I would imagine that would shut down any cross-generation upgrades. I know I couldn't upgrade my Fermi MXM to a Kepler MXM when it fried.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm in nearly the same situation. I'm torn between a the cheaper 860M Maxwell Clevo and the more expensive Kepler version with an 870M. If I have no realistic upgrade options either way, I'll probably go 870M, even though it's twice as expensive to run, at 100W.

 

Being able to upgrade MXM cards almost relies on your laptop manufacturer to support vBIOS. Alienware tend to be much more upgrade friendly at a cost, and it is $$$. Clevo owners had an outcry over non-upgradable models a few years ago.