Maxwell or Mantle makes you more excited?

Nvidia coming with new mobile Maxwell GPU in early next year, AMD will introduce the mysterious Mantle. Which of these is a really game changer?

 

Maxwell is definitely the next nVidia 3D video card hardware tech, but Mantle is not mysterious or hardware. Mantle is an API, software for driving 3D video, primarily for AMD's GCN silicon. So I guess it's hard to compare the two.

 

Maxwell gtx 860m wont be a monster for mobile, i'm waiting for now, hope it will be released in max february, else i will get a gtx 765m and oc it

 

Yes, the two things are different, but both staffs goal is to enable better, more efficient gaming for customers.

 

Well we can hope for new AMD R9 mobile cards next year, with mantle support it should be clear choice vs maxwell.

 

And AMD drivers for 3 years ? Nope, will go to nvidia in all of the cases..

 

What is wrong with AMD drivers?

 

Bsod sometimes with some lappys, suttering, bug fixes every 2 days when a game comes out (bf4)..

 

Indeed, it was terrible to install every day a new driver for BF4.

 

Mantle is smoke and mirrors, until we get some benchmarks which prove it really makes a significant difference.

 

they say you can expect a bump of 20%, we will see..

 

I'm more and more excited of Mantle as we more know about it, especially very interesting part that it will give sense for APU + dedicated GPU systems. Currently IGP doing nothing near the dedicated GPU, but with Mantle the developers will able to use the IGP for different extra calculations (Mantle support asynchronous work), near the big GPU, so for example a Kaveri APU + GCN GPU will overkill in games. CPU bottleneck will gone and the good thing is already 20+ games are under construction with Mantle support.

 

Mantle. Not only does it provide a performance boost, it also takes load off the CPU. I don't see Maxwell doing that.

 

Nvidia will do that with some OpenGL extensions

 

Neither, G-SYNC would be my preferred choice. But picking Mantle over Maxwell? Yeah right..lol. Mantle will be a niche API that only paid devs will use.

 

Mantle.

I was at AMD BF4 Fan Day while APU13 was going on just down the hall in the same building. I caught up with Johan Andersson from DICE who was giving the big Mantle speech at the AMD Developer Summit and he said that Mantle is a thin layer of abstraction that sits over hardware, not an AMD-specific product. There's no reason companies like Nvidia, Intel, and Qualcomm couldn't use Mantle in future products. In fact, he hinted that he wants to see Mantle receive widespread adoption, not just in PC's but in things like smartphones, tablets, mobile consoles, etc. Of course, that would be the best thing for everybody if it happens.

Later, I talked to Austin Evans (tech YouTuber) and he told me that Mantle's performance increase is expected to be around 20%.

And if you didn't believe any of this, here's proof:



Maxwell doesn't have the same widespread repercussions that Mantle could potentially have. And being that it will be on the 28 nm process again like Kepler was, I don't expect another Fermi-to-Kepler performance jump either.

The good ol' days of next-gen CPU and GPU architectures being released year-after year like clockwork are gone due to the rise of mobile chips and process migration difficulties. Just look at the difficulties Intel had transitioning to 22 nm and now to 14 nm with its recent delay of Broadwell. And keep in mind that Intel has the most advanced fabs in the world.

Same thing with Nvidia. In addition to lack of competition from AMD, yield problems with GK110 forced them to release it later-than-intended as Titan. GK110 was originally supposed to show up as the GTX 680 in their product stack.

So I don't think we'll ever see another 2x or greater generational performance leap like we did with, say, Radeon 8500 to 9700 Pro or GeForce 7800 GTX to 8800 GTX. Or another 50% increase like we saw from Nehalem to Sandy Bridge. Those days are over.

I don't think D3D and OpenGL can ever achieve what Mantle can in terms of reducing CPU overhead and increasing draw calls and parallelism. And apparently, Mantle will also eliminate microstuttering in multi-GPU configurations (!).

 

And G-sync won't be niche?

 

Like the ones that write video games, a multi-billion dollar industry?

 

The slides from Johan's keynote about Mantle at APU13. Browsed through it and it's pretty fascinating stuff if you ask me.

Mantle for Developers - Frostbite

 

Mantle and here is why:
"Later on he talked more about Mantle empowering low spec systems. That's important to developers and customers because suddenly the user base has expanded. He said it also means that they're much aligned with the current trend to low-power devices, tablet-like devices or any other slim devices. Those are the devices that are in the most need for an efficient way of driving the GPUs and CPUs. He said Mantle is uniquely positioned to deliver the best proposition on those types of low-power systems."
AMD APU13: Mantle Shooting for 100,000 Draws per Frame

Also for many other reasons some of which Atom Ant mentioned. And from this it seams that we will finally get problem free hybrid crossire (APU + mGPU) with Kaveri and mobile variants of cards based on Bonaire GPU (the one in 7790 and R7 260X), which will probably be the performance (below enthusiast 8970M/R9-M290 series) cards for the mobile segment similar to the new mobile FirePro card I talked about in a separate thread.

As far as Maxwell goes nobody knows how crippled mobile variants will be. And I don't even care about G-Sync. Sure V-Sync was a pile of garbage and G-Sync improves it, but the way it does it is plain stupid. A $100+ add in card for monitors and there is only one ASUS monitor in the near future that will support it. How long will it take for notebooks to support that? Maybe they (display manufaturers) will design a similar solution but the current one from nVidia is, once again, stupid. I rather play games at 30FPS average on a 2560X1440 PLS monitor with settings maxed out rather than a 120Hz crappy 1080P TN panel with G-Sync.

 

I also think g-sync will be a game changer. G-sync will work with any game.

 

Well let's not turn this into a Mantle vs. G-Sync thread, we can start a new one for that. The bottom line is, this thread is comparing apples to oranges.

 

So? Mantle could be cross-platform: Windows, iOS, Android, Mac, Linux *ahem SteamOS*. And it could be cross-vendor: Nvidia, Intel, Qualcomm. PS4, as opposed to XBONE, already uses a Mantle-like API. IMO mobile is one of the most interesting use case scenarios of Mantle.

At the end of the day, what frustrates me the most about PC gaming is vendor and platform exclusivity. If I pay a boatload of money for a game like Star Citizen that supports G-Sync and PhysX and Mantle and TrueAudio, you better believe I want to be able to have all of that regardless of what graphics card and OS I'm running. Making it impossible for a PC gamer to get the full experience out of a game that he/she paid $60 or more for is so frustrating and unfair.

 

Mantle is said to give 20% performance improvement http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/amd_mantle_could_get_you_20_more_performance.html

I like apples.

 

But not any hardware. G-sync enabled desktop monitor only at a price premium.

 

Mantle can be used for this thing View attachment 104976

Uses a Qad Core 4.5W TDP AMD A6-2XXX Mullins APU that's faster than the current 8W A6-1450 Temash.

More articles and Pictures:
AMD entering the tablet business? New images reveal all-new device | News | TechRadar
AMD introduces gaming tablet concept called "Project Discovery" - Liliputing

 

Mantle doesn't work with any hardware. Sli when it came out was enclusive to Nvidia, only later did AMD do crossfire. Nvidia had 3D before AMD, but later AMD did it. Nvidia had optimus first, then later AMD did it. My point being that if it is good, then AMD and Nvidia will both do it.

Price premium? You mean paying for a gpu isn't a price premium? Of course it is, and one gamers think is worth it. It remains to be seen if gamers will think g-sync to be worth it. I think they will, but that is just based on Carmacks reaction among others. When they do buy it, the prices will drop and availibility will increase. Even so, sight unseen I would pay an extra $100 to get it now.

As for the person saying Mantle is importantant for tablets, but then you say g-sync is bad because it doesn't support notebooks, seems you have a double standard. Either use the notebook standard for both, or not.

Also, I think you misunderstand g-sync. It is made for people that want ultra settings even though the frame rate drops to 30fps. Which is what you said you prefer. I get the impression it won't do a lot at over 60fps. I could be wrong, as there is limited information.


As for Mantle, or Maxwell being game changers, well I don't see any change. Just increased performance. G-sync visually changes the game look at lower frame rates. It also changes how games are optimized, therefore how they are designed. I see John Carmack getting excited over Oculas Rift, and G-sync, but not Maxwell or Mantle.

 

The reason I even included the tablet in here is because mantle not only supports Desktops but also laptop and tablets that are using GPUs optimized for it. Nobody is stopping ARM chip makers or even nVidia from optimizing their own products. nVidia on the other hand does the ty thing again and only supports its own hardware. G-Sync is not software, its hardware made for Monitors, and since it uses nVidia chips everyone else gets screwed. Once there is a software version of it supported by displays than G-Sync will become important.

As for you second point I was mentioning the fact that I would rather spend that extra money and get a high res PLS panel, rather then a crappy TN panel that is only 1080P and costs the same. As for the 30FPS part, I just ment that it would be much more tolerable to me than the TN even at 120FPS, and I am not the only one who things this way. That's the big problem with G-Sync, bad monitor support. Sure it might get better later on but I would rather wait for a software implementation that doesn't cost extra on the already expensive high res monitors. In the meantime I will wait for 4K monitors to drop under $1000 instead of G-Sync. Frame latencies aren't that big of an issue and Mantle even improves that. Network latencies are the biggest problem, especially WiFi, since you can only put a router in 1 room, and running cables room to room and across floors isn't the best possible optiot.

 

I didn't say Mantle didn't work work with any hardware. Just that G-sync doesn't. And 3Dfx came out with SLI well before nVidia.

Yes it is a price premium above and beyond your normal monitor. It's definitely not free. I didn't say if it was worth it or not, it's definitely a premium price upgrade.

Not really. It's to prevent the shortcoming of vsync primarily tearing, stuttering, and input lag. Input lag is mainly due to being under the refresh, but tearing and stuttering are from being above the screen refresh.

 

Mantle is a non-proprietary graphics API, not on the same plane as those. And hopefully you turn out to be wrong:

I do understand G-Sync, it is you who are slightly confused. G-Sync doesn't eliminate the need for high FPS. You will still get input lag at low-enough frame rates on a G-Sync setup, same as you would at the same FPS with no V-Sync. G-Sync just makes the visual experience perfect. And it is beneficial regardless of what FPS you're getting.

Increased performance is just the tip of the iceberg. Mantle is a potential game changer.

G-Sync changes the way the game looks at all frame rates. But so does Mantle. Enabling 10x more draw calls means increased responsiveness, new effects and realism, a fuller environment, and more. And multi-GPU without AFR? With the visual bliss of having microstuttering eliminated, multi-GPU will no longer be visually distinguishable from single-GPU.

Mantle does that too.

John Carmack isn't some sort of infallible god. In fact, he hasn't been relevant in the bleeding-edge gaming scene for years. He spends more than half his time now away from id Software working at Occulus on the Rift. Rage and id Tech 5 were underwhelming and id vacated their spot atop the 3D engine tech totem pole long ago. Meanwhile, Johan Andersson is at the helm of one of the most advanced engines in the world, Frostbite 3, which is going to be used for a slew of huge upcoming AAA titles in addition to powering the most stunning graphics on the market in BF4.

I'm not necessarily saying John Carmack isn't right or that he's out of touch, but his words just don't carry as much weight as they once did.

 

I never understood G-sync. So instead of using the extra $100-$200 on a better graphics card, you're supposed to use it to buy a G-sync monitor to make your low fps look less crappy?

I suppose it'll reduce tearing even at high fps, but I don't see that being a big problem with a 120hz monitor which is less of a price premium.

 

Without V-Sync or G-Sync, tearing will happen regardless of your FPS or your monitor's refresh rate. I understand the benefits of both G-Sync and Mantle and I'm not gonna bash either one. But my big problem is that I can't have both along with PhysX and TrueAudio all at the same time.

 

Link4, I think G-sync will be important. I also think AMD will do a competing version. Much as I like new technology, and understand why companies make it exclusive, I also like open standards.

Regarding your monitor point, yes that makes sense. Hopefully other monitors will support it soon, as well as laptops. BTW, I saw a 4K TV for under a grand...

HTWingNut, Good point about 3Dfx. My only point is that if it is good, then both companies will support it. Yes, a price premium, but technology prices drop fast.

Sorry about the misunderstanding g-sync, that was meant for another, and it was my misunderstanding the monitor comment. I think you have a handle on it.

Octiceps, True, Mantle could run on other hardware. I think Dice said just this. I then said if it is good then both AMD and Nvidia will do it. Is that the part you hope I am wrong on? You hope it stays exclusive to AMD?

I don't think I misunderstand g-sync, but I could be. I meant the comment for another, I misunderstand a monitor comment. Also, I didn't say it eliminated the need for high fps, although it is supposed to reduce lag. I just think the benefit is reduced at high fps, I am not saying there is no benefit.

You say Mantle is more than just performance increase. I have seen some hints at that, but nothing concrete. Do you have more details on that? Or are you refering to the 10x more draw calls statement? I saw Dice said 20% improvement. They weren't concrete about anything else. And I find it suspicious that the other devs are not talking. It just feels like it helps some, but the rest is marketing hype. I don't know, but it just feels that way.

Valid points about John Carmack. I also feel he might be biased against Mantle...

I am glad this is so far a civil discussion...

 

Please note, I am not bashing Mantle, or Maxwell. They just don't feel like game changers. PhysX was supposed to be a game changer, but it hasn't turned out that way.

 

Well, if you buy the top end GPU, there is no better card to ger. Also, monitors can last through many gpu changes. And if it takes off, the price will drop. Gotta love the early adoptors that drop the price for the rest of us.

 

Nope I meant that I hope you're wrong when you said Mantle won't work with just any hardware. I want to see widespread cross-platform and cross-vendor adoption of Mantle like what is shown in those slides.

I don't think anybody ever felt that PhysX was supposed to be a game changer. I still remember when PhysX was the add-in PPU card made by Ageia and it was horrible. It's obviously better now, but the general consensus from the outset was that PhysX was mostly a gimmick.

 

I meant it doesn't currently work with any hardware. I think has said that it could work on other hardware and implied it would even work on Nvidia.

I remember the Ageia card. I thought, oh no, not another card to buy. I thought PhysX might be a game changer. Oh well.

 

A good, relatively easy-to-understand article that should answer quite a few questions regarding Mantle: AMD Mantle API poised to revolutionise PC gaming

And this is why Johan Andersson of DICE has been the main pitch man doing the rounds to promote Mantle, not someone from AMD. He was the one who thought of it in the first place and approached all three major GPU vendors about it in the beginning!

Knowing that Mantle is, by nature, not a vendor-locked API, it makes this scenario a lot more plausible:

 

I know Dice has said Mantle is open. Has AMD said it is open, free, and doesn't need a license? I expect Directx will make some move to counter Mantle, to make it less necisary.

 

See above. Read again if you need to.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear, I meant free and unrestricted to Nvidia and Intel.

" It doesn’t stop there. AMD’s goal is to make Mantle a software standard and offer it as an alternative to developers who want more control than DirectX offers, with all the benefits of better performance, more efficient programming methods and comprehensive documentation for the API.

It will be free for developers to implement as well and will surely see adoption in AMD’s Gaming Evolved program."

It says AMDs goal is to make it a software standard... which means it currently isn't. It also does not say they will do this for free, or without some sort of benefit. If it is truely open, can Nvidia and Intel modify the standard? The next paragraph is different, it just says developers will be free to use it. Nvidia and AMD are not developers.

 

I don't have answers to these questions. I don't work for AMD or DICE so I'm not privy to this information. There are no inherent restrictions preventing Intel or Nvidia from supporting Mantle in their future products, so the ball is in their court, so to speak. As for licensing or whether Mantle becomes an open or closed standard, that remains to be seen. And of course Mantle is not a software standard yet, it has only just begun picking up steam.

 

Lol @ "picking up steam". Was that an intentional pun? For those that may not know, Andersson stated Mantel would be perfect for SteamOS.

 

Yes of course that was intended.

 

OK, I have to give you points for that.

 

I'm leaning AMD for my next laptop. I would say this without Mantle for the advantages from AMD being in both the PS4 and XB1 and considering the price compared to Nvidia's top end. Mantle just sweetens the pot.

 

I think Mantle is more exciting but nVidia has been on a role recently. G-sync, shadowplay, and the streaming from your pc to tv are great little bonuses.

 

Even if some of us would buy a Radeon laptop rather, hard to get one, only Samsung offer GCN Radeons with good Intel CPU. In future I think Nvidia will be even more arrogant and aggressive and we will have no option to buy Radeon based laptops.
Fortunately, I'm lucky I could get a Samsung Ultrathin with Radeon 8750M and I definitely won't change it for any Nvidia Maxwell based laptop. Maxwell will be just minor jump with current manufacturing process, while AMD offer something radically new for current owners; more effects, less CPU load and 30-40% performance jump, in some extrem case they mentioning even 3x performance;

 

Hopefully the rise of AMD will translate into having more choices in brand, but there is always Sager/Clevo. I don't know if I even want a ASUS again now that they solder the CPU to the mobo. Sure the 4700HQ is a bit better than the 4700MQ, but I don't like the trade off.

 

Finding or build a laptop with the high-end 8970M Radeon is actually not impossible, but the mainstream category for causal gamers with 87xx and 88xx Radeons are very rare. So if certain people now see a Radeon GCN more future proof as the current Nvidia solutions, they'll still gonna buy Nvidia laptop because that is the only option.