Tim Sweeney thinks Microsoft will make Steam "progressively worse" with Windows 10 patches
By Shaun Prescott 12 hours ago
Epic Games founder renews attack on Microsoft's UWP framework.
http://www.pcgamer.com/tim-sweeney-...gressively-worse-with-windows-10-patches/#nnn
"It's well established that Tim Sweeney, co-founder of Epic Games and co-creator of the Unreal Engine, is not a fan of where Microsoft is headed with Windows 10. He's criticised the Universal Windows Platform twice this year, claiming that it's an attempt by Microsoft to monopolise what has traditionally been a happily open platform.
Now, in an interview with Edge Magazine, Sweeney has become even more direct in his criticisms, claiming that future updates to Windows 10 could serve to erode the usefulness of third-party applications and storefronts like Steam.
"There are two programming interfaces for Windows and every app has to choose one of them," he said. "Every Steam app – every PC game for the past few decades – has used Win32. It’s been both responsible for the vibrant software market we have now, but also for malware. Any program can be a virus. Universal Windows Platform is seen as an antidote to that. It’s sandboxed – much more locked down."
"The risk here is that, if Microsoft convinces everybody to use UWP, then they phase out Win32 apps. If they can succeed in doing that then it’s a small leap to forcing all apps and games to be distributed through the Windows Store. Once we reach that point, the PC has become a closed platform. It won’t be that one day they flip a switch that will break your Steam library – what they’re trying to do is a series of sneaky manoeuvres. They make it more and more inconvenient to use the old apps, and, simultaneously, they try to become the only source for the new ones."
While that could technically be true, how could Microsoft ever hope to bring down something as gargantuan as Steam, either intentionally or inadvertently? Sweeney believes they have a plan for that.
"Slowly, over the next five years, they will force-patch Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and more broken. They’ll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seems like an ideal alternative. That’s exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas. Now they’re doing it to Steam. It’s only just starting to become visible. Microsoft might not be competent enough to succeed with their plan, but they’re certainly trying."
Sweeney has previously said that the PC has remained at the vanguard of graphics innovation because it's an open platform. Microsoft's supposed attempts to turn Windows into a closed platform risks neutering new breakthroughs such as VR before they've had a chance to flourish. "
How can we make sure Microsoft doesn't ruin Steam, Uplay, GOG, etc on Windows 10?
Is the only way to stop Microsoft to not use UWP and Windows 10.
Should we all remain on Windows 7/8.1 and game there?
-
-
-
killkenny1 Too weird to live, too rare to die.
-
-
How does that help us stop Microsoft from ruining gaming with UWP and Windows 10?
When you tear down those speaking out intelligently and with much experience dealing with Microsoft on this very problem for many years, you aren't helping.
What are you thinking??
Do you or your development company have a vested interest in Microsoft succeeding in killing off 3rd party gaming services by UWP succeeding?Last edited: Jul 26, 2016 -
So please, relax. No one is tearing down or painting anyone in any way.
Peace out.hmscott likes this. -
Here are some helpfully good comments to that article:
" Drake Warnock • 44 minutes ago
I think this is what Microsoft WANTS to do, but if their launch of uwp is any indication they are not nearly competent enough to succeed."
But, Microsoft has a consistently successful method of "failing forward" that eventually is as successful enough that we need to be aware, concerned and active so we don't inadvertantly help them succeed in shooting down open gaming for us all.
" PoopMiner • 20 minutes ago
This is a bit far fetched, but I agree with the sentiment that it's on all of us to shut them the fvck down by not buying any of the games on UWP"
" stuart • a few seconds ago
I have noticed that my steam doesn't display anything from the store unless I am logged in as administrator."
" Ge0force Wayne Christopher • an hour ago
"How in the hell would he know what patches Microsoft will deploy?"
- Use your imagination. I wouldn't be surprised if UWP games suddenly perform better on DirectX13 than Steam's win32 games, or that certain DirectX13 features are only available to UWP apps. That's what Microsoft does. Remember when you were forced to buy Vista for the newest DirectX versions, while hackers could make it work on older versions after a few
I hope he is wrong. From what I read about UWP, I would prefer it never got off the ground. Feels like Micro$oft is taking away freedom again."
Lots more...Last edited: Jul 26, 2016 -
Well wasn't this obvious when Windows 10 went free? Increase/Inflate userbase and then force companies to bow down based on stats.Microsoft is not facing any major competition when it comes to OS's that can run games properly. Its the same case, as with Intel/NVIDIA monarchy.
We need more players out there, otherwise things will just keep on getting locked down harder.
Personally all i care about is CSGO and DOTA2 , and im sure SteamOS is going to be a nice OS for gaming, specially since they are working on integrating vulkan support.Last edited: Jul 26, 2016 -
Touchy people are most sensitive to Thoughtless people. Like I said, I didn't think you meant it, but you couldn't tell just going by what you posted. -
I don't want to multiboot Windows 10 and SteamOS to have what I already have with Windows 7/8.1, it works on Vista as well.
SteamOS isn't going to run all my other apps, and if Windows 10 locks out 3rd party services - makes them run 2nd rate - then going to Windows 10 is a bad idea. -
Specially if you want to play AA/AAA titles properly?
SPECIALLY since Microsoft will not bend, developers however will. -
If there are games I can't get except on Windows 10, I would do without them. Or run those MS exclusive games on a MS console.
For me the Xbox One never seemed like a good choice. The Xbox One hardware was disappointing to me in comparison to the PC, and to the PS4.
I was thinking about getting an Xbox S or future unit.
If I want to run MS's games I would rather do it on the Xbox than help MS ruin Windows any further.
If we help MS UWP succeed, and MS uses that to push out other services, we would end up with no other good alternative for games on Windows 10 besides UWP and MS Store.
It's really all MS' fault for these negative expectations, seeing as how MS has accelerated those expectations by fulfilling them with its consistent bad behavior, even more so in the last year.Last edited: Jul 26, 2016 -
You know what my friend at Microsoft said when i asked him why does DX12/11.5 API suck so hard and i hate what they are doing to cripple proper game development? (he is a developer on the DX team)
Nothing.
He just showed me a stats sheet and said , things will get "unified" soon.
End of the day, if you boycott titles using UWP, you are hurting the developers and not Microsoft. -
What we decide as individuals matters, if more of us give purposeful consideration it matters more. Information exchange is built 1 person at a time, one on one, with the end result being overwhelmingly positive.
It's not helping the developers by helping MS succeed in narrowing developer options for game development moving forward.
MS is hurting those developers by ruining things such that we need to make the hard choice ourselves to stop MS moving forward by voting with our $.
Same as developers lost out on Window Mobile because MS botched that as well, it's MS that's causing the problem, not us.
I'm not going to feel guilty looking out for my gaming interests, I feel for the developers caught in the middle of this, but it's not going to help them or me by ignoring MS's efforts to close off and limit choices on Windows 10 moving forward.
Besides, buying Xbox games instead still compensates the developers
But, like I said, that might not happen, as Xbox hardware hasn't been my 1st choice, and there is only so much time for gaming, and there are plenty of DX11 games on Windows 7/8.1 now, and for the foreseeable future.
There are lots of games I don't get, and now Windows 10 UWP exclusive games are on that list.Last edited: Jul 26, 2016 -
But i hope it works out as you say.
If people start the whole boycotting business, its going to hurt the devs as much as piracy does.
Please dont take this the wrong way, but you talk about doing good for the developers and the industry, but at the same time you want to hurt them 10 times over by boycotting something that isnt even their fault. Give them a better platform and they will be more than happy to move.
Buying XBOX games is partly the reason why Microsoft is moving the industry towards this BS. To unify the console and PC market. In the end boycotting those titles will do even more harm, because the developers will choose to develop and deploy once instead of developing for 2 different platforms. And this is already happening.
Im not saying to give up hope and bend over. Im saying to find a better solution. Because boycotting is the worst one out there.
Oh, and no that "WE" is a very small base of people who actually know what the hell Tim is talking about. The general "gamer" populace doesn't care.Last edited: Jul 27, 2016 -
Describe to them the robbery in progress, describe to them what is being taken from them and how it is being done, they can make an informed decision.
Armed with that information they can then defend themselves, preventing the crime from happening in the first place, they can prevent it from ever happening.
Experience has shown us that all is not as described to us, to look for the obvious clues that stand out contradicting what is being told to us.
Learn to not be gullible. That's the clue to look for most, does the story require me to be gullible, or have unquestioning faith to make the obvious deceptions used in the story work.
Windows 10 and UWP aren't needed. MS knows we want the games, they know if they can get the developers to only develop and publish in MS's sandbox, everyone will be forced to do what MS wants and pay what MS demands.
The developers should never agree to putting all their "eggs" in one basket, it makes them vulnerable to being strong armed.
A good business person diversifies from the start, and doesn't become locked in to one supplier or distributor / publisher.
As soon as they put themselves in that position of only have a single source or single outlets for key portions of their business they are at the mercy of those single weak links.
You are focusing on the wrong aspect by telling us that we should go along with MS's mayhem, use Windows 10 and buy UWP games so that we can protect the developers from harm.
You stop Microsoft by not participating in their plans, and by not giving MS money.Last edited: Jul 28, 2016 -
I dont see anyone on any of the forums, or servers, or Steam communities, or anywhere to be even concerned with this.
Most of all i do not see an alternative? Do you?
Still haven't answered my question - WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE? WHAT OTHER OPTION DO THE DEVELOPERS HAVE INSTEAD OF DEVELOPING FOR WINDOWS?
Quit development for PC's? Sure .. even more money for Microsoft. That is an even more locked environment. And that makes them more a slave to Microsoft.
More over , i do not see you spreading the word about what is wrong with this, and what we should ACTUALLY do to prevent this. Instead i see a wall of text with quotes and a bunch of preaching. (i mean no offense by this)
Again, what other OS or platform do the developers have? I dont see development for OSx? I dont see games being specially developed for Linux? Because things are not always as simple, as - Oh hey man, they are doing this bad and it is bad for the whole community, lets just leave this community and be a part of another one. And make cupcakes for them, because the butter in the previous one was bad. What if there is flour in the new community ?
Things are never black and white, you say its only Microsoft? I assume you do realize that NVIDIA and AMD, are also an important part of the equation?
Heck i dont think you know how much goes on into the development of a AAA title.
Let me ask you this, what if tomorrow, Intel and AMD start charging you to be able to use their processors in order to develop on whatever platform you develop on? And this is on top of what you have paid already for the chip.
Will you go ahead and start you own platform and use a brand new non Intel/AMD processor?
Oh, and again. You are not hurting MS, in any way, not even close. Like they dont care one bit what you buy or not buy, you WILL however hurt the company that is developing those games.
And the moment you refuse to buy a game, not only have you hurt the developer but in the process you just make Microsoft a wee bit wealthier. Now you have to buy their console AND the game for their console.
And with all due respect, please dont reply to this, unless you have an actual reply instead of good people theories, and what people should do. Everyone can form beautiful and inspiring sentences out of words, but very few can actually offer a solution.
Most of this comes from having worked in the Game and Film Industry for more than 7 years now. (and counting)Last edited: Jul 27, 2016D2 Ultima likes this. -
How I am handing this personally:
I am not running Windows 10. Done.
By not running Windows 10, I don't even have the opportunity to use UWP or DX12 or MS's store.
I am not buying MS's Store games, or UWP enabled software.
I am going to get those exclusive games via Xbox One, or not at all.
I will buy games that also have versions available for DX11, outside of Windows 10 and DX12, sold via all the other publishing channels available to me.
It's that simple. It's my solution. AFAIK it's really the only solution for Windows gaming users.
I'll repost the solution for developers by Tim Sweeny published a few months ago.
Microsoft is looking to dominate the games industry ecosystem with its aggressive new UWP initiative. Developers must oppose this, or else cede control of their titles
Gears of War developer tells games industry: we must fight Microsoft
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...-pc-games-development-epic-games-gears-of-war
"With its new Universal Windows Platform (UWP) initiative, Microsoft has built a closed platform-within-a-platform into Windows 10, as the first apparent step towards locking down the consumer PC ecosystem and monopolising app distribution and commerce.
In my view, this is the most aggressive move Microsoft has ever made. While the company has been convicted of violating antitrust law in the past, its wrongful actions were limited to fights with specific competitors and contracts with certain PC manufacturers.
This isn’t like that. Here, Microsoft is moving against the entire PC industry – including consumers (and gamers in particular), software developers such as Epic Games, publishers like EA and Activision, and distributors like Valve and Good Old Games.
Microsoft has launched new PC Windows features exclusively in UWP, and is effectively telling developers you can use these Windows features only if you submit to the control of our locked-down UWP ecosystem. They’re curtailing users’ freedom to install full-featured PC software, and subverting the rights of developers and publishers to maintain a direct relationship with their customers.
Windows Store and UWP
I’m not questioning the idea of a Windows Store. I believe Microsoft has every right to operate a PC app store, and to curate it how they choose. This contrasts with the position the government took in its anti-trust prosecution, that Microsoft’s free bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows was anti-competitive.
My view is that bundling is a valuable practice that benefits users, and my criticism is limited to Microsoft structuring its operating system to advantage its own store while unfairly disadvantaging competing app stores, as well as developers and publishers who distribute games directly to their customers.
Gears of War: Ultimate Edition. Photograph: Microsoft
The specific problem here is that Microsoft’s shiny new “Universal Windows Platform” is locked down, and by default it’s impossible to download UWP apps from the websites of publishers and developers, to install them, update them, and conduct commerce in them outside of the Windows Store.
It’s true that if you dig far enough into Microsoft’s settings-burying UI, you can find a way to install these apps by enabling “side-loading”. But in turning this off by default, Microsoft is unfairly disadvantaging the competition. Bigger-picture, this is a feature Microsoft can revoke at any time using Windows 10’s forced-update process.
The Solution
If UWP is to gain the support of major PC game and application developers, it must be as open a platform as today’s predominant win32 API, which is used by all major PC games and applications. To the PC ecosystem, opening UWP means the following:
- That any PC Windows user can download and install a UWP application from the web, just as we can do now with win32 applications. No new hassle, no insidious warnings about venturing outside of Microsoft’s walled garden, and no change to Windows’ default settings required.
- That any company can operate a store for PC Windows games and apps in UWP format – as Valve, Good Old Games, Epic Games, EA, and Ubi Soft do today with the win32 format, and that Windows will not impede or obstruct these apps stores, relegating them to second-class citizenship.
- That users, developers, and publishers will always be free to engage in direct commerce with each other, without Microsoft forcing everyone into its formative in-app commerce monopoly and taking a 30% cut.
Games and EA are operating highly successful businesses selling their games and content directly to consumers.
Microsoft’s situation, however, is an embarrassment. Seven months after the launch of Windows Store alongside Windows 10, the place remains devoid of the top third-party games and signature applications that define the PC experience. Where’s Photoshop? Grand Theft Auto V? Fifa 2016? There are some PC ports of what were great mobile games, and some weirder things, such as the Windows 10 port of the Android port of the PC version of Grand Theft Auto from 2004.
But the good PC stuff isn’t there, with the exception of Microsoft’s own software products. Does Microsoft really think that independent PC developers and publishers, who cherish their freedom and their direct customer relationships, are going to sign up for this current UWP fiasco?
Minecraft is developed by Swedish company Mojang. Will future games be developed now that Microsoft is closing its borders? Photograph: Alamy
In my view, if Microsoft does not commit to opening PC UWP up in the manner described here, then PC UWP can, should, must and will, die as a result of industry backlash. Gamers, developers, publishers simply cannot trust the PC UWP “platform” so long as Microsoft gives evasive, ambiguous and sneaky answers to questions about UWP’s future, as if it’s a PR issue. This isn’t a PR issue, it’s an existential issue for Microsoft, a first-class determinant of Microsoft’s future role in the world.
Why We Fight
As the founder of a major Windows game developer and technology supplier, this is an op-ed I hoped I would never feel compelled to write. But Epic has prided itself on providing software directly to customers ever since I started mailing floppy disks in 1991. We wouldn’t let Microsoft close down the PC platform overnight without a fight, and therefore we won’t sit silently by while Microsoft embarks on a series of sneaky manoeuvres aimed at achieving this over a period of several years.
This day has been approaching for over 18 months, and I need to give credit to Microsoft folks, especially Phil Spencer, for always being willing to listen to Epic’s concerns with UWP’s paradigm, and to proposed solutions. Because they listened very patiently, I hoped and believed that Microsoft would do the right thing, but here we are. Microsoft’s consumer launch and PR around UWP are in full swing, and this side of the story must be told.
Microsoft’s intentions must be judged by Microsoft’s actions, not Microsoft’s words. Their actions speak plainly enough: they are working to turn today’s open PC ecosystem into a closed, Microsoft-controlled distribution and commerce monopoly, over time, in a series of steps of which we’re seeing the very first. Unless Microsoft changes course, all of the independent companies comprising the PC ecosystem have a decision to make: to oppose this, or cede control of their existing customer relationships and commerce to Microsoft’s exclusive control."
Tim Sweeney is the co-founder of US-based developer, Epic Games, creator of the Gears of War series of Xbox and PC titles, which has sold over 20m units worldwide.Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2016toughasnails likes this. - That any PC Windows user can download and install a UWP application from the web, just as we can do now with win32 applications. No new hassle, no insidious warnings about venturing outside of Microsoft’s walled garden, and no change to Windows’ default settings required.
-
hmscott likes this.
-
-
Opened a new Thread to track this problem RE: Steam
Steam Problems after Windows 10 Anniversary Update
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/steam-problems-after-windows-10-anniversary-update.794574/
Steam problems after Windows 10 Anniversary Update...
It's happening already!!
Civilization 5. It says "preparing to install 1%" then says "The Steam Servers Are Too Busy To Handle Your Request. Error Code (2)" (I already have the data files, it's already downloaded/installed". I've reinstalled game/steam multiple times, verified game cache, googled it and cant find a fix ;~;
https://www.reddit.com/r/steam/comments/4w2hl2/_/
Dr_Injection 4 points 10 hours ago*
"Having the exact same issue. It seems to be affecting any game I tried to download after the Win10 anniversary update. Changing the DL server had no effect (the filed DLed fine the error occurs when you try 1st launch of game).
Edit: So Civ V and XCOM EW didn't work but Shadowrun Dragonfall did. I suspect it is because SR doesn't actually use Steam DRM."
And, killing vendor gaming tools:
MSI Gaming Center is broken by the Anniversary update:
Windows Anniversary Update killed Dragon Gaming Center
https://www.reddit.com/r/msilaptops/comments/4w2yjc/_/Last edited: Aug 4, 2016 -
I think it would be good to write an article/appeal on Steam Forum about Tim Sweeney's article and that microsoft is starting doing this.
Also online petition... to a Steam. So that they would make a statement immediately to microsoft and do other preventive measures before it's too late. So that everyone would know it is microsoft's fault and their sneaky dirty actions.hmscott likes this. -
There are people on Windows 7 reporting the problem too, some saying they just noticed it after Windows 7 updates were installed.
It may be more than Windows 10, and it may be a Steam problem.
That's the thing that Sweeny said, it's going to be raising the frustration level with Steam on Windows, you don't know what is the cause, so it's doubly frustrating. -
hmscott likes this.
-
There was a Steam "outage" posted 3-4 hours before the other thread posted on reddit... it might be related.
steam down![Resolved]
https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/4w1m0q/steam_down/
Again, lets see how this plays out.Last edited: Aug 4, 2016 -
saturnotaku Notebook Nobel Laureate
If Microsoft is intentionally screwing with Steam (and/or Origin, UPlay, etc), they better be prepared to have holy hell rained upon them. MS is powerful, but so are Valve, EA, and Ubisoft.
hmscott likes this. -
MS should be able to muster the expertise to implement the UWP Store options in technically and economically attractive terms on their own merit.saturnotaku likes this. -
saturnotaku Notebook Nobel Laureate
Microsoft is a single multi-billion-dollar enterprise that is potentially messing with several other multi-billion-dollar enterprises. You'd think common sense would dictate that this is probably not a very good business strategy. Instead of cutting them off, I would look into opportunities for synergy, so that everyone can benefit.
hmscott likes this. -
Another reddit thread tracking Game issues coincidental to Windows 10 Anniversary Update:
Windows 10 AU broke my games
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/4w3ao9/windows_10_au_broke_my_games/
Here's another AU issue:
Windows 10 Anniversary Update Causes Input Delay on Some Devices: Here's the Fix!
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffe...anniversary_update_causes_input_delay/d630ms2Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2016 -
Edit: it seems the broken games may be a steamworks issue affecting all versions of Windows and happening at the same time as AU roll-out may be a coincidence. Valve hopes to have a fix out today."
RESOLVED: Steam Error 2 - Windows 10 Anniversary Update
https://steamcommunity.com/app/8930/discussions/0/360671352684764658/?ctp=2#c360671352685113103Last edited: Aug 5, 2016 -
Quantum Break Devs Abandon Windows 10 Store
Thomas Puha@RiotRMD Aug 11
@sabin1981 @QuantumBreak sorry to hear you are having problems. Its unlikely we release another Win10 patch.
Thomas Soft @ RiotRMD Aug 11
Quantum Break reaches Steam mid-September http: // goo.gl/dng1YN via @3djuegos
https://twitter.com/RiotRMD/status/763622167217053696
Comments
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/4xa4py/quantum_break_devs_abandon_windows_10_store/
Quantum Break is coming to Steam
http://www.overclock3d.net/news/gpu_displays/quantum_break_is_coming_to_steam/1
"This article was possible thanks to information provided by Dicehunter on the OC3D Forums.
Microsoft and Nordic Games has today announced that Quantum Break is officially coming to Steam, ending the game's exclusivity on the Windows Store.
The Steam version of the game will release on September 14th, including all of the updates that are available to the Windows 10 Store version, though Microsoft did not confirm whether or not Quantum Break's Steam version will be a UWP application or Win32 application.
PC gamers will soon no longer need to be forced to use the Windows 10 Store in order to play Quantum Break, which is a huge step. Hopefully, more of Microsoft's future first party games will be coming to Steam and other online storefronts in the future."
" -Update
We have confirmed with Remedy that the Steam version of Quantum Break will support Windows 7, meaning that the game will support DirectX 11, and will not be a UWP game.
Below are the PC system requirements for the Steam version of Quantum Break.
MINIMUM:
- OS: Windows 7 - 64 bit
- Processor: Intel Core i5-4460, 2.70GHz or AMD FX-6300
- Memory: 8 GB RAM
- Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760 or AMD Radeon R7 260x
- DirectX: Version 11
- Storage: 68 GB available space
- OS: Windows 10 - 64 bit
- Processor: Intel Core i5 4690, 3.9GHz or AMD equivalent
- Memory: 16 GB RAM
- Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970 or AMD Radeon R9 390
- DirectX: Version 12
- Storage: 68 GB available space"
Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2016 -
Microsoft's UWP framework - Why it's bad for gaming
Discussion in 'Gaming (Software and Graphics Cards)' started by hmscott, Jul 26, 2016.