NVIDIA GeForce GTX 480M is out

Overclock.net has some interesting threads for overclocking the HD5770. HD5770 users have been able to overclock theirs up to 1050 Core and 1450 Memory and having these overclocks stable with around 70C temps.

So you do have a point, but that would mean HD5870M if was to do the same would need more power and a different cooling system that MSI is using right now, Clevo probably can handle it. I think Asus fans are fine, but Asus would have to change to all copper heat sink with better diode design.

Also you do have to remember, that on all 3, Asus G73, Alienware M15x, and on Clevo W870CU, HD5870M users have overclocked theirs to over 900 core, nearly 950 core and 1250 on memory for Vantage GPU scores topping 10K already as is. And I know I'm not the only G73 user who has been gaming in BC2 with 800/1100 overclock.

So I think you are right, if ATi wanted to release voltage unlocked HD5870M could probably handle 850-900 overclock with more stability with better cooling could be stable for gaming. Current voltage is 1.15, so I think a voltage of 1.24-1.25 would be interesting to see for results.

 

You would offer it to the same machines the 480m is targetted towards.

Clock it 850/1200 (same as destop 5770).

 

Why do you think so? If ATI wanted to go after this market, they could have done so. The TDP of the desktop 5850 is 151W so if they bin and downclock, they could fit it into a 100W envelope, but they used the 108W 5770 as the starting point instead because they realized that the market for very hot cards is tiny. The 480M will only compete with ATI in the largest and heaviest notebooks and even there it will probably lose on price.

 

That is not necessarily true. ATI won that market with the 5870M GPU, both single and SLI, and their specs were enough to be the best. Now there seems (because we've got no benchmarks yet) there is a new best GPU, adn we should wait and see if ATI launches a new big GPU to compete.

 

I said a long time ago, that I hope ATI releases a 1440 shader GPU, based from the desktop 5830.

That would be the best course of action, if they want an easy counter to the 480M.

 

5870 = 1600
5850 = 1440
5830 = 1140 (plus half its rops disabled)

The 5830 is not very efficient, 5850 would be a better starting place.

 

As said earlier in this thread, there are many people who care about nothing but performance.

I am one of those, with the only exception of the size of the laptop itself.
I personally wouldn't mind to throw out the battery completely and use the space for something more useful, for example.

Nvidia also has the advantage of better driver support, which would make atleast me to choose a GPU of similar performance from Nvidia over ATI.

 

Oops yeah, my mistake. Meant to type 1140.

You're probably right there. If they could tame the 5850 into mobile form, that would be quite the breakthrough.

 

1120 SPU on the HD5830.

 

Probably not worth it at this time. The 480M won't be out until mid-late June. Southern Islands is coming sometime in the autumn so they can take the lead back then.

Yes, but those people generally buy desktops. There is a disproportionate number of enthusiasts on the forums, but the overwhelming majority of people who buy laptops (even laptops with discreet video cards) want a little more mobility than is possible with a 100W card.

 

Wonder if they based these chips on the GF104:

Nvidia GF104 goes for high frequency with 256 shaders - www.nordichardware.com

"Beside reducing performance Nvidia cuts GF100 more or less in half and this has a lot of positive side effects. The circuit becomes cheaper to make and the power consumption easier to handle. Thanks to 40 nanometer technology and a less complicated GPU the frequencies can be boosted a lot higher than with GF100."

Has some good potential for notebook application.

 

I actually was expecting the 480M to come from the GF104 line. The next mobile card certainly will though, as the GTX 465 is on the lowest rung of the GF100 as is.

 

Clevo NEEDS to put out a backlit keyboard option. Come on!!!!!!!!!

 

Very true. Even with a 5850 in a GX640 weighing 6lb I find myself carrying it outside only rarely. Just too... I don't know. Tethered to the power sockets, I suppose.

 

i cant delete this

 

You all are talking about the power usage and other things on Ati vs Nvidia. But I wonder if any of you have seen this article on power draw. Ati mobile 5870m vs GTX 285m. The laptop came with the same cpu, ram, blah, blah. The 5870m is rated at 50w (plus the memory) but 285m is rated at 75w. The 285m uses a little more power then the 5870m but the gpu chip is made in 55nm vs 40nm on the Ati side. The 5870m draws more power in idle, thats why the battery run down is lower on the 5870m.

Power, Efficiency, And Battery Life : AVADirect's W860CU: Mobility Radeon HD 5870 Vs. GeForce GTX 285M

http://media.bestofmicro.com/R/Z/245951/original/image025.png

 

What is mobility in a gaming laptop in the first place?
<1 hour battery life in non-gaming?

Well, i guess it's just me, but i want a laptop because i can take my computer and all my files anywhere, whether it's from home to dorm, dorm to school, home to work, location A to location B.
It's not very easy to carry a desktop computer around. With laptop i don't need any planning, just pick it up and ready to go.

It doesn't matter to me what the battery says because i'm not going to need such a powerful computer outside. There's netbooks which are much more suitable for that.

What about the world outside these forums? They count just as much as the people in these forums. As far as i remember, this started from the 480m "not having any impact on ATI" or something like that.
These forums are only a fraction of the people who buy gaming/performance laptops.

 

GTX 285 is not the new Fermi. 5870 is rated at 50w and the new 480M is rated at 100W.

Basically to be on an equal power rating you can have two 5870's in CF.

 

Yes for the same power you could have them in xfire, but you would also need more space, and a better cooling option, and so you'd have a larger laptop. Aren't the 5870s in the G73 pretty hot already, and that laptop is pretty massive, even with its large looking cooling system.

I'd rather have one single high watt, hot card that outperforms all others.

 

Like tsun said, while there certainly are people that want 2+hrs of battery life on a gaming beast, most of us will accept that batteries tend to be an UPS. Even then, a 12cell will only pump out 90-120 mins with a 5870 on low/idle...

The real concern is heat generated from that rather large 100w power draw. If a 5870 @ 75-85c under loads is already considered hot, what will a FERMI be? Heat is a known killer of components, so if a fermi is always above a 5870 in temps (which according to the laws of this world, it will be), why would you buy something that is more expensive and will not last you as long, for a paltry theoretical short term performance increase? And yes, while clevo and other companies may very well redesign a chassis or add fans or whatever, you could argue that you might as well stick a 5870 (maybe even in CF!) into that new chassis and happily game at 50c.

 

By "mobility", I mean in the sense that it is plausible for an average person to move the machine around (bring it to class, to meetings and so on). You can do this with some of the MR 5850 laptops, but it gets unreasonable beyond that.

I don't think it's comfortable or financially efficient to do this with the Clevo monstrosities on a regular basis. One time events are fine, but every day? Very few people are interested.

They do... and they tend to use laptops with integrated graphics.

Practically no impact, yes.

Sure. But the people who would even consider buying a laptop with a 100W GPU are greatly overrepresented here. The games most people play on their laptops will run on any full-fledged laptop and even on some netbooks.

Here is the latest Steam hardware survey. This is not a comprehensive list of all gamers, but the number of people they get these statistics is quite large and the only biasing factor is that all of them have a decent internet connection. If you look at the graphics cards used, the mobile ones with the largest share are:

Mobile Intel 4 Series Express
GeForce 9600M
GeForce 8600M
Mobility Radeon HD 4570
Mobile Intel 965 Express
GeForce 8400M
Mobility Radeon HD 3470
Mobility Radeon HD 4650

Nothing above the mid-range even cracks the 0.50% necessary to get on the list. This is not like the desktop market where people who play games tend to go for the x8xx cards. The number of people who buy laptops with high-end cards (by which I mean cards with the second digit being greater than 6) is very small to begin with and the number who would buy anything as huge and expensive as any laptop with a 480M is a small fraction of even those. Thus, the impact this will have on ATI is negligible.

 

I am not talking about the Fermi in power draw, I am just saying that the 5870m draws more power then most people think.

 

I agree that 480 will have a negligible impact on the low-mid line on ati, but there are rumors of 420 and 460 coming after, that will most likely enter list you posted, usually the first release on desktops/laptops gpus is their signature line, then comes the mid and low end market.

 

Mobility means being able to pick up the laptop, grab the power pack easily and move to new location or take it completely offsite.

It also means being able to use it on battery for me also. G73 not the greatest but get close to 2 hours and with 2nd battery purchase should be fine for my needs.

Oh but I do have a netbook just in case

 

...more space and more cooling? That's now how it works... the combined wattage is the amount of cooling you'll need. You will need the SAME amount of cooling for a single 100W card as for 2 50W cards. Now, since ATI and Nvidia spec TDP differently the 5870's will be more like 120W combined with the RAM, but you're still talking the same class heat-exhaust for 2x5870 as you would need for 1x480M GTX

 

Seeing the internals of the W880CU, vs those of the W870CU, will answer a lot of questions.

There's only a 1cm difference between the two.

 

1cm is half an inch, which is half the height of my entire laptop, with the lid closed.

 

1cm is not half an inch.

 

I'm sorry. It's 2/5ths of an inch. Which is really, really close to half an inch

 

Big deal. Way to go, you've rebuked nothing.

 

it's not 2/5th of an inch either. but close enough.

 

Directly from Clevo:

W880CU: 412(W) x 279(D) x 39~56.8(H)mm = 5506CC internal volume.

W870CU: 412(W) x 279(D) x 39~48(H)mm = 5000CC internal volume.

I used the two measurements as a direct triangular size, so these volumes should be accurate. If you can read that, it means that the internal volume of teh W880CU is 10% larger. That's HUGE. A can of soda is only 355CC (1CC of fluid = 1ml). It's the volume of almost two 1cm thick trade paperbacks. All needed just to cool a single GPU.

 

I have a bad news the GTX 480M don't seem so powerful than that. Yesterday, I saw that the new gtx 480M offering up 897 gigaflops but i return on nvidia website today and oddly it offer only 598 gigaflops. So this card will be less powerful than the quadro FX 3800M (648 gigaflops) and of course the ati 5870M (1120 gigaflops but it's another architecture). We must see the benchmark for confirm that but how disappointing this new fermi GPU!!!

 

1 in = 2.56 cm 1/2.56cm = .39 2/5in = .4

Basically 4/10 or 2/5. That's significant, in my opinion.

 

Comparing to a desktop pc... Taking a desktop computer from place to another more often than once a 6 months or so seems unthinkable to me... Considering i can carry my gaming laptop in my left hand or backpack.
I need to travel about once a month or so(excluding all countless other times when i wish i had picked up my laptop with me), and the lunchbreak in school is 1 hour while i eat in 10mins.
Let me guess; you don't travel that much?

I agree that this card has negligible effect on ATI as a whole, but i was talking about the mobile side. Guess i should've pointed that out.
If the steam survey list would include mobile cards only, i'm sure more high end cards would start to pop out.
Most of the percentage is eaten by the desktop cards.

Also: Many people in the list probably did buy the best card; in their own time.
The thing is, when people like me need a new computer, they will blindly go for the most powerful card. AKA 480m GTX.

 

The 480M will definitely have an impact on ATI's top end mobile card, 5870MR. I would say that if 480M was released when I'm buying a notebook I will buy it, even if it's 500+ more. When you are looking for a powerhouse notebook, you will just feel uncomfortable sometimes buying the second best performance card rather than the best, even though the best card might cost a bit more.

 

This was pointed out by many people when the 897 GFlops were first announced: the issue is that whoever was updating the website did not understand Nvidia's new architecture. In the old architectures, the number of GFlops is given by roughly

Number of GFlops = 3 * (Number of shaders) * (shader clock speed in GHz)

In the Fermi architecture, the equation is now:

Number of GFlops = 2 * (Number of shaders) * (shader clock speed in GHz)

Fermi has a lot more shaders, but each shader is not as good at doing floating point operations as the G92 shaders were.

Why compare to a desktop PC? The laptop will not be anywhere near the power or cost effectiveness of a desktop -- you'll be off by a factor of 3 or more. The more logical comparison is to the smaller gaming laptops which, while slightly less powerful (certainly nowhere near the difference between the big laptops and desktops), are also a lot cheaper.

I work on two different continents so I think I travel more than most people, but more importantly, I take my laptop with me to work every day and bring it to meetings. I don't think I'd do this with the Clevo monstrosities (if only because they're so huge that they'd stand out in meetings).

I understood that. I'm saying it has negligible effect even there. Mind you, not no effect at all -- clearly some people who will otherwise have bought the MR 5780 will buy the 480M -- but the effect will be quite small because there aren't that many of the former to begin with and even fewer of them can afford the price premium. It's like losing your pocket change: the value of the loss is not zero, but nor is it worth worrying about.

This merely reflects that most people who play PC games do so on desktops.

No. All of the cards on that list were either simultaneously with or after the high end versions of the same cards. Both Nvidia and ATI always offer the high end products first so the people who really want to try the new architecture have no choice but to shell out.

That being as it may, there are much, much fewer people like you than you think. That kind of thinking requires both a very high budget and tolerance for the heaviest and bulkiest products on the market. It's a rare combination.

 

The GTX 480M is just a marketing tool for Nvidia.

They are not dumb, they know majority of people are not willing to pay for GTX 480M that is twice the price of the desktop GTX 480 and but less than half the performance...

But Nvidia can parade around saying how awesome it is and that just makes an impression on people when buying their next card. Which name will they know more? GTX 480M seems to be making news well and majority of people won't even know how much of fail it is for a mobile GPU, that doesn't matter.

That's how I see it. While Nvidia may lose money on making these failures, they will be successful in continuing to spread the Nvidia brand name on forums, review sites and tech news.

 

Uh.. that's a tought one... hmmm...

And how exactly can you tell, from the survey, when the graphics cards were brought?

When i play MMO's, i see WAY too many kids talking about their super alien technology computer their dad/grandparents/whatever brought for them.
And from what it seems, they are very unlikely to use any forums or participate in surveys or anything of that sort.
All of this and what said earlier excludes people who do not speak english.

Still, it is the most powerful mobile graphics card in the planet, so it just has to have an impact on the mobile market of ATI. (inb4 "yes, but negligible")
I highly doubt the "problems" with it matter as much as you make it seem.

 

Are there any rumors on when these are coming? I would assume they would be based on GF104/106/108 rather than GF100 and thus won't be out until late summer. The 460M ought to be interesting.

Yes, it is a tough one. Your artistic talents aside, my point was that most people will buy a laptop that is cheaper, lighter and cooler, even if it is slightly less powerful.

You don't need the survey for that -- any tech review site will tell you when a particular graphics card was available (or you can just google it). Regardless of when they bought it, the people who bought the mid-range and low-end cards could have chosen a more powerful option, but did not do so.

First, they probably could not tell the difference between a good computer and a mediocre one. Second, I'd wager most of them are using their parents' 3 year old computer or something of the sort -- it's easy to brag on the internet.

That's the beauty of Steam's survey: it does not require the user to answer any questions or go on any forums or speak any particular language. All it takes is one installation of a Steam game and Valve's software will send all the relevant data back to them for analysis.

Looks like you ran out of reasons.

This is what I've been trying to tell you: the single most powerful mobile card doesn't matter. It is not like the desktop video card market where the only meaningful difference is price and if the premium charged is not absurd, many people will buy the most powerful thing out there. With laptops, the most powerful card costs not only money, but also goes against what a laptop is. Thus, far fewer people buy it.

 

The most powerful card isn't a huge dent in the market. But Nvidia (and ATI) both imply that "if we have the fastest card out there, even our other models are better than the competitors".

Which in this case is demonstrably false, but that's only for those of us who post on forums and such. Nvidia is hoping for a marketing coup with the GTX 480M, not an actual wide-distribution product.

 

i'll be waiting for this card to burn.. the 100W TDP is just too high... waiting for it to reach 120-130C... anyways , i still wouldn't buy this.. 5870 is good enough and super cool...but let's wait and see...

 

This is no longer the market in which the 9800M GTX was able to thrive, despite being obscenely priced. There was no competition back then, so Nvidia basically price gouged us.

Then, here comes ATI with the 4850/4870, and suddenly the GTX 260M is the most affordable enthusiast chip on the market, despite the 9800M GTX.

I expected Nvidia to attack today's competitive market, but with a superior chip falling within $200 of the 5870. With ATI now taking hold on the enthusiast with a budget, Nvidia has really overshot what the consumer is looking for in these economic times.

My gut feeling:

Since the GTS 400 series is behind schedule, Nvidia fell back on the only feasible chip available, as a poor stopgap. I don't even believe Nvidia is taking the 480M seriously.

I predict a faster and more power efficient chip before the year is out.

 

True, it's their flagship product. It's just like Clevos making all those monstrous dual GPU notebooks with desktop processors, not many will buy them, but it's like saying, we've got the most powerful notebooks in the world, so our products will be for enthusiasts. It's what all flagship products are, flagships.

 

I still don't understand your logic.
For example, the GTX 260 that is on the list now, could have been brought at a time when it was the best card available. There's just no way you can tell when someone brought their graphics card.
(i don't know much about desktop graphics cards so don't ignore the sentence just to say 260 GTX was never the best or something like that)

Can you tell when i brought my 285m GTX? No. You can't. And this is my point. In 2 years(when 285m GTX is mid/low-range) you can't possibly tell if my graphics card was the best at the time of purchase. Well, YOU probably can because you were here, but you get my point.

Well then, i guess this is never going to end so i'll just say;
I believe 480m GTX will affect the mobile market of ATI, you believe it will not.
My opinion, your opinion.

 

Hey anyone can tell me where it differences from ATI 5870?

 

Power consumption , price and heat.

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo/487376-pic-gtx-480m-3dm06-test.html

And possible Imba performance.

 

Sweet ! Thanks for the link

 

That's exactly the argument: the mid-range cards were never the best because the high end cards were always released either at the same time or earlier. I don't have to know when somebody bought their mid-range or low-end card because I know that every single one of those cards had an more powerful elder sibling. In your example, the GTX 260 was released simultaneously with the GTX 280.

That is correct: with a GTX 285M, I would not be able to tell because it actually was the best card at one time. But there are no mobile cards of this kind anywhere on the list.