Nvidia clockblock: vBIOS (unblocked in 353.00)

What about haswell alienwares? But theoretically I could go dedicated GPU over optimus on my alienware?

 

I just mentioned Haswell Alienwares in the previous post. They have InsydeH20 BIOS. Unless you are talking about the new BGA garbage systems with Haswell.

 

Will note: I'm using UEFI windows 8.1 on my P370SM3, and as I showed you I've never experienced throttling issues, so you might be right that the drivers have been attacking the setup of the OS in the older Alienwares. We know Win 8 and Win 7 work without UEFI in the Clevos, and Win 8 with UEFI works without issue too for this, but again... no InsydeH20 BIOS (which we already know dislikes these machines). I've been on 350.12 for a while and I've been OCing to 1006/6000 in GTA V when the day isn't too hot for extra fps, and I've never had it throttle. Not even after ~5 hours of gaming. I haven't used 353.00 or 352.86 yet, but every driver people seem to have problems with works fine here, and it also works fine for your 980Ms in your Clevo, isn't that right Mr. Fox?

 

No no, the 2013 alienware models.

 

Yes, that's right. That's actually in line with what I am thinking in an indirect way. My Clevo system BIOS is very primitive compared to InsydeH20, which supports the most vile form of UEFI and firmware signing, etc. The older Alienwares (and, ironically, the brand new ones) have a primitive BIOS. If Maxwell has advanced power control features that are available to a system BIOS that supports (or conflicts with) InsydeH20 UEFI BIOS advanced features, that might be causing the problem. In this case having a BIOS that refuses to talk to, or cooperate with, the vBIOS may be a huge blessing in disguise,

 

Yeah, already mentioned them. I mentioned Alienware 17 by name and the InsydeH20 BIOS, so that catches it twice. To improve clarity for those that are not connecting the dots with InsydeH20, I inserted "or first generation Haswell systems" so there can be no confusion.

 

I can´t connect the dots in this BIOS/UEFI discussion, but I like that you´re on to something.

 

I am running in UEFI so it should be ok and optimus is something I can live with as a necessary evil.

 

Nobody ships an old school BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) any more. It's all UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) these days. EFI dates back to the beginning of Itanium. It is Intel's go, with assistance from HP, at a high level pre-boot environment similar to what Sun and HP and IBM and others have always (or almost always) provided on their servers. UEFI is an open standard based on Intel's original EFI. What you would call a BIOS these days is really an old school UI running on top of UEFI.

UEFI is essentially a mini-operating system with its own set of services and drivers. More accurately: UEFI encompasses many vendors' implementations of this mini-operating system as, for example, AMI's implementations are different from Insyde's implementations of the same specifications. This is how it can do things from enforcing signature checks on devices (like Lenovo does) to fast boot to the full secure boot sequence and a whole lot more. It may also be part of the problem, maybe the root of the problem, that many of you are having since UEFI can initialize the GPU(s) before the "real" OS starts and loads its own drivers.

On the other hand, if you disable UEFI boot then none of this happens. UEFI is still there but it hands all bootstrap control to the OS boot loader similar to how old BIOS-based systems work. You loose all of the benefits of UEFI boot by doing so but it will get around any bugginess in a given vendor's UEFI boot implementation.

 

UEFI is a two-edged sword. It can be used for good or for evil. UEFI Class 3 is a totally different story. It's evil by design because it eliminates the ability of the end user to use Legacy BIOS, does not allow CSM and signature enforcement is mandatory. Thankfully, Class 3 is not the de facto standard yet. As far as "benefits" of UEFI booting, I have never seen any good example of a benefit for laptop owners because the OEMs are using it for evil instead of good. Enforcing hardware and firmware signatures is a great example of the magnitude of their wickedness. The only beneficiaries of UEFI BIOS features seem to be desktop jockeys. Legacy BIOS is beneficial to laptop owners because it severely restricts the ability of OEMs to have any control or influence over what end users are allowed to do with their personal property after the point of sale. (As it should be, because it's none of their stinking business how the product is used or modified once it is in the hands of the end user.)

 

Yeah. I was all for UEFI at one point, but it's become nothing but a pain in the rear. And UEFI limiting USB bootable partition to FAT32 greatly limits any real usefulness due to 4GB limitation.

 

UEFI Secure Boot is beneficial to notebook users. It makes evil maid attacks and boot loader malware much more difficult to implement. The firmware validates itself, all of the devices in the system, and the boot loader. It refuses to start if it detects any tampering. This is a good thing for everyone, notebook users included.

As you say, it's a two-edged sword. Lenovo uses the secure boot signature validation mechanism to lock out third party hardware. This is pure evil. It's why I started recommending against buying Lenovo (the more recent spyware scandals is icing on the cake).

 

Thanks, didn't know that. Made my decision against a Lenovo tablet i considered very easy.

 

Er... I think I'm missing something. The 32-bit file size limit doesn't affect booting.

 

I'm not worried too much about malware and I really don't need any help from my BIOS in this regard. I think Micro$haft and the proponents of that sort of security are dangling it as a carrot to make UEFI Class 3 and signature enforcement more palatable and creating some level of hysteria to make people think if we don't have it we're all going to die... or, at least have our personal identities stolen. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances with the nasties than surrender any level of control, especially were firmware and driver signing are concerned. It's not the "feature" I have a problem with... it's the inability for me to opt out entirely and conscientiously choose Legacy BIOS, if I want to, being eliminated with UEFI Class 3 that I find objectionable and completely draconian. The elimination of end user choice in the matter should be illegal.

Any sensitive information I have stored on USB, my OS drives are imaged and the files I don't want to lose are backed up. I don't run any antivirus software and don't apply most of the Windows Updates. That being said, I don't visit naughty web sites and do not surf indiscriminately and only visit a small selection of web sites. Since I have moved all of my game libraries to Steam and Origin, I don't need to look for cracks and no-CD/no-DVD hacks to play my legitimately purchased games without an optical disk like the old days. Back in the day, I was constantly hammered with malware from that kind of thing. I've gotten nailed by malware once in the past couple of years, but I just blew everything out with diskpart, cleaned the disk, then restored my OS image and I was good to go within about 15 or 20 minutes. Once every few months or so I re-install Malware Bytes (purchased with lifetime subscriptions) and do a quick check to make sure nothing is lurking in the shadows. I confirm the clean bill of health and then uninstall it.

 

Sure, but you and I have a clue or three. Most consumers don't, and there are lot more of them than there are of us.

 

I agree with that, but here again, elimination of choice is a bad thing. I don't want my future ruined simply so they can play God and watch the backs of the lowest common denominators in PC world. Make it be turned on by default if they want to... that's fine, just don't RAM it down our throats. Let us retain the ability to disable it, use CSM if we want to. It's not good if they take away our right to choose Legacy BIOS or CSM only because some stupid dufus that doesn't know anything might get hurt. That's what UEFI Class 3 will be doing unless something changes with the spec, and I doubt that will happen if Micro$haft has any say in the matter. It helps them maintain a monopoly and they charge a fee for "signing" firmware and drivers. If we can turn it off, we cut off their extortion channel and they are no longer God. This is really the bottom line. They don't really give a rat's butt about consumer safety. They are just using that excuse to cloak their cash cow. It's not a lie, because the draconian controls that let them dictate everything, coincidentally, also blocks malware so they can spin it as a consumer protection feature. No thank you... no bueno... poo-poo, cah-cah, mierda.

As far as I am concerning, eliminating the option for end-user choice to select from Legacy BIOS, UEFI with CSM or pure UEFI is conclusive evidence, on face value, that they have a totally dishonorable and despicable ulterior motive. And, "they" includes all accomplices... OEM and ODM.

 

There's a small flaw in your reasoning. Microsoft aren't doing it because of monopoly. They're doing it because of cellular carriers that won't allow devices on their networks without these kinds of lock-downs. Why? Money.

The carriers had two choices back in the early days: secure the towers or secure the phones. Securing the towers would have cost money out of their pockets. Securing the phones would have cost money out of consumers' pockets. Consumers got screwed. Then digital cellular happened, carriers reimplemented all of their infrastructure... and screwed consumers again instead of doing it right the second time around. Then Palm got into the game with the Palm V which didn't do so well, but then others tried and then Apple's App Store happened and then smartphones were everywhere and then tablets were everywhere and almost every one of them is locked down tight because the mobile networks require it. They require it because the operators do not want "rogue" devices using their networks without their owners paying.

Money.

Mobile devices are where the money is. Apple and Microsoft are each fusing their mobile and desktop operating systems. It won't be more than a few years before Mac OS X and iOS are the same thing, and there won't be much distinction between Mac and iPhone/iPad. Likewise Microsoft Windows and Phone and their respective devices. That's where we're headed. All of those mobile devices will require mobile service. That service comes with mandatory lock-downs.

All at the expense of consumers.

Enough rambling from me.

 

We've got some of that ranting going on in the Windows 10 thread.

I see monopoly, you see money... they are one in the same. Lock-downs equal monopoly, which equals money, and we agree it's at the expense of consumers. Micro$haft doesn't want consumers to be able to boot another OS besides the OS they want us to use. OEMs don't want consumers to be able to upgrade their laptops... they want to sell them new machines. All things considered, a match made in Heaven (or Hell if you are an enthusiast) that serves everyone's needs except for the consumers that don't want to drink their urine-laced Kool-Aid.

On topic, I think some of this lock-down nonsense is why we are seeing such goofy things happening with NVIDIA drivers. They are trying to control more than the task to throwing an image onto a monitor. They want to control system behavior, and I think UEFI is making things possible for them on a level that could not happen with a "dumb" Legacy BIOS that does not facilitate conspiracy low-level behavior modification.

 

i hope chucking in a 980m won't be as painful.

 

The installing is the easy bit!

 

You already have windows 8.1 in eufi if I remember correctly.
So shouldn't be to difficult for you to make it work.
But I do agree installing is the easy bit.

 

i'd like to think that i have some level of competency when it comes to computer hardware LOL

 

I still think your better off trying to sell your laptop and add that to the money you would spend on the 980m upgrade. Wait just a little longer and get a clevo with a 1080m .
Too many horor stories from people trying to upgrade there alienwares to the 980m.
I wish I would of done that to begin with instead of trying to upgrade my 17. But live and learn.

 

that's all you can do.

 

Yep. We're heading down the rabbit hole. Laptops are becoming glorified smartphones. Everything integrated, locked down BIOS functionality, singular/simplified OS... it won't be long before desktops start to reach this threshold. There will be some heels dug in for a bit longer because the enthusiast market is larger, but eventually money talks. I can easily see most desktop PC's with CPU and RAM embedded on the motherboard, and possibly even mobile GPU's. Only thing you'll be able to do is add an extra hard drive. But there, the push for cloud storage is getting stronger than ever.

It's inevitable unfortunately. We are entering the Matrix age. Everything is controlled by "The Man" and our involvement will be minimal. The icing on the cake will be when PC games are no longer considered superior, or even exist at all. Keyboard and mouse will disappear and games will be dumbed down to the point that most of them will be nothing more than Candy Crush and Peggle. Even console games will be pushed to the cloud and the fight will shift from Microsoft and Sony and Nintendo to Comcast, AT&T, Verizon and a few others as they make cloud gaming their service, console no longer needed.

I have less time for games, and gaining less interest, probably because the games I want to play are no longer being made or are few and far between. I can easily see a point in the next ten years where I lose interest in gaming completely, and it has been a big part of my life since I was probably 5 or 6 years old. Quality single player games are so rare any more, as are local multiplayer LAN type games. It's sad really. We've come so far, but it will slowly regress into "one for all" common denominator. Enthusiasts be damned. Hobbyists be damned. Tinkerers be damned. We will do it their way, and their way only.

RIP PC's, RIP laptops, RIP PC gaming, RIP console gaming...

​

 

Sorry HT but I don't agree.

VR is going to completely transform gaming over the next few years.

We are about to enter a golden age, especially on PC.

 

What he's trying to say is that while tech is getting better and better, it's also becoming more and more anti-consumer. People want you to keep buying, rather than buy and keep for ages/upgrade/etc. More and more things like locked BIOSes and the whole clockblocking incident are proving that we're getting less and less control of our hardware.

 

I wasn't talking about hardware.

 

Yep. So even if VR doesn't fizzle like the last hyped big thing (remember 3D TVs?) it will be even more locked-down than what we have today because that's the way tech is moving.

 

The software is pointless if the hardware is a joke. Do you know that my laptop would be worthless if not for @johnksss and @svl7? If I could not flash their modified vBIOS, I would have sat there with artifacting in tons of games because my cards with nVidia's stock vBIOS cannot draw enough of some kind of power (either TDP or voltage, I know not) to run a 120Hz screen. My laptop *IS* a 3D edition laptop. The hardware it was sold with would have been pointless if I had security against modified vBIOSes in my drivers or if we get to a point where even @Prema's modified NVFlash no longer works.

Understand? Hardware control is essential to the people who want the best stuff. It's why the enthusiast doesn't look at a desktop mac with soldered RAM and proprietary SSD connectors which can only be found from Apple (when they have it in stock) and go "yes, this is the perfect machine for me who loves to tweak and draw the full potential out of my machine".

Believe me. Games can get as good as they want, but if our GPUs are all soldered to the board and designed to fail after a year and we're meant to buy new gear every 6 months, problems will be happening. And those problems won't be stopping either, as we won't be able to fix it as end users.

 

If you think your 120Hz/3D flicker was bad wait till one eye gets out of sync with SLI on the Rift/Vive because one card throtlles and the other doesn't or throttles in its very own rhythm...

 

No thanks. I have enough problems with VR goggles and headsets as it is. As in, I'm physically incapable of using them because of astigmatism.

 

Finally the ShadowPlay Desktop recording (non-optimus only, optimus support is in development) is official from GFE 2.4.5 update.

Spoiler

 

Personally I think you are being incredibly pessimistic. Agreed, for us tweakers and tinkerers it's fantastic to be able to do exactly what we want with hardware. I started the Nvidia ClockBlock petition for that exact reason. However I don't think it's the end of the world for games and VR if hardware starts getting locked down. VR is bringing along with it huge demands for additional GPU power to be able to provide the lowest latencies and stable frame rates. Companies like Nvidia are not going to be able to ignore that demand. Your personal examples are in the extreme and you should be protected by warranties in those situations.

My initial comment was referring to HT's views regarding where gaming is potentially heading. My view is the complete opposite. I think we're all in for a amazing ride very soon.

Also ratinox you do know that astigmatism is potentially correctable in software

 

I didn't say flicker, I said artifacting. Big yellow and blue streaks across my screen, with or without being in 3D. As long as both SLI and 120Hz were enabled, it happened. I thought my PC was actually broken. It was so bad I even ASKED mythlogic for permission to apply the custom vBIOS and remain under warranty and they agreed.

 

Mine isn't. Technically I have two different astigmatisms, both myopic but different enough that my eyes don't focus on the same point in space. I don't have stereoscopic depth perception. Forcing it on me hurts, real physical pain, because it forces my eye muscles to do things they shouldn't.

 

So yeah I wrote a book again. I'm spoiler tagging it to save you people =D.

Spoiler

You might be right about being pessimistic, but it is the going trend right now. Don't get me wrong, we can pull a full 180 and get back control of our hardware as enthusiasts and all... but the point remains. What if new cards come out with severe throttling/performance issues that never get fixed, and unlike with the 880Ms where we could have attempted vBIOS flashing etc, what if we can't even attempt to fix? Hardware is only as good as its supporting software. Toss a GPU in something and leave no drivers and no firmware and it doesn't even know what it is. Toss a bad firmware in it and it'll work badly. Make it impossible for us to fix that bad firmware and we have to live with it.

It isn't the end of the world for games and VR if hardware starts getting locked down. That was not my point at all. My point was that *IF* hardware gets locked down to the point where we're unable to adjust our own system's settings/firmware/behaviour and it's all controlled by the seller, then how do we fix problems? Look at @n=1's experience where his SLI 970s would sometimes crash at stock because voltage wouldn't kick up fast enough after a cutscene or something. He fixed it by using custom vBIOSes where he adjusted the voltage tables... but what if he couldn't? What if I couldn't use my modified vBIOSes on my 780Ms? What if Prema BIOSes for Clevo machines couldn't be flashed? The Alienware machines did that in the AW17 R1 and AW18 era, and it's the same now. Unlocking the BIOS is impossible without popping off the BIOS chip and implanting a chip already flashed with an unlocked BIOS onto it.

What I'm saying is, hardware isn't perfect and sometimes end-users have to step in and clean up the muck that 90% of the population misses... but those 90% are the 90% that don't care how hot things run or if they throttle or whatever until there's a distinct after effect like their notebook shutting down due to thermals or their games getting "too stuttery" because their GPU is fluctuating between 400MHz and 1100MHz on the core repeatedly. THEN they suddenly care about the issue, after giving their "oh it works fine" and "no this machine is great you don't need anything else" feedback to about 100 people all over the net. The pro-Lenovo y50 people are the best example of this. Only when one of them gets their CPU to 90+ degrees and their GPU to 95 degrees, both throttling at the same time, because they're playing something the notebook wasn't designed to take (which is what people like me keep telling others) do they realize "oh, crap, I bought a bad machine" and suddenly their "favourite new game™" is unplayable (GTA V is a good example of this).

Now, with all I've said that could be potentially bad about having locked down hardware and software, you need to remember that having locked down hardware/software means that companies of both kinds can DESIGN anti-consumer things. Look at Apple and their warranty-voiding "open checker". "What? You opened this laptop once a year ago to clean out dust from the vents? Nah your three year warranty is kaput. You gotta pay." <--- something like that. It's not that I expect it to happen (at least not widespread) but it is possible, and the scariest thing is, people are FINE WITH IT. They're fine with it because they don't expect it to ever make a difference to them, and when it does, they're the ones most annoyed. There was this one kid who literally cried because he opened his Razer blade to repaste the CPU and GPU because he was near-overheating on games that weren't even very demanding, did a poor job, then had temps RISE by 10 degrees, only to find out he voided his warranty by daring to repaste, so he's out of luck for the rest of his ownership of that laptop. But you know, tell him about that prior to buying the laptop and "I don't care I'll be fine". Then he buys it and does this and now he's suddenly a victim. That's no victim, that's voting with your wallet that anti-consumer policies are fine. By the time you want to complain nobody cares to listen, and it's too late at that point. And at that point is when we're royally screwed, because why would ANY company willingly cut profits by deciding to go pro-consumer?

 

I hope so, but I don't think so. It's a gimmick. Anything that requires a visual peripheral will come and go. It's come and gone and been tried many many times. I remember in the late 1990's and early 2000's when I made frequent trips to Las Vegas and they had all sorts of 3D headgear it was touted as "the future". Heck even the Nintendo 3DBoy or whatever it was called, I owned one, and it was a one trick pony. Even the 3D TV's that don't require glasses will be quite gimmicky as well unless it's a standard in most people's homes.

I know fidelity has improved greatly but unless the gear is completely comfortable where you don't know you're wearing it both from a pressure, weight, and vision standpoint, it will only be a novelty. I can't stand wearing headphones for more than a couple hours at a time as it is. I can't imagine something strapped around my head and eyes. If they can make it built into a regular set of glasses, I can see it happening, because you're not relying on cameras to show you the world around you. It also segregates those with vision problems because you can't get the full effect and may even be disorienting.

I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen trends come and go (as have many others here) and very few stick and become a standard. I'm quite interested in Microsoft's eye gear, too. But from a productivity standpoint, but I still think it's still too cumbersome to use regularly.

It's a start, but we still have a LONG way to go.

 

You're not wrong. There are just too many problems with goggles and the ones you list are scratching the surface. The real breakthroughs will revolve around realtime three dimensional spatial projections. By this I mean fully three dimensional projections that you can walk around and see from any angle. Until then we're just playing with gimmicks.

Aside: Nintendo VirtualBoy.

 

I would imagine your glasses have astigmatism correction? Mine do, I only finally started needing glasses about 2 years ago (I'm 44). Took me a while to get used to them even though it's rather light prescription. My laptop looked like a trapezoid until my brain finally adjusted like 3 weeks later. I would imagine if it's possible to use a VR headset with glasses that might work? Is there one that can accommodate them?

 

Ofc the Rift has to work with glasses, otherwise Carmack wouldn't be able to use his own device

 

Yes, my glasses do this. No, it doesn't work for me. I can't wear them when looking at things less than 12-18 inches away.

There was a VR headset demo in the area last time someone tried to make a buck (or a few thousand bucks given the actual prices) on these things. That would have been late 1990s or early 2000s. I tried it without glasses. Pain. I tried it with glasses. Pain and I could see nothing but colorful blurs.

 

I enjoy reading the recent discussion. At its core, it all just comes down to being about the bane of capitalism. As with all things, we must always strike a balance be it the consumer with demands or the corporations with profit-chasing. With that said, there will always be corporations that seek to abuse that balance for the sake of $. Therefore, I don't disagree with you D2 Ultima or even with HTWingNut's earlier post. It is important that we as consumers be aware of the very real potential of this "closed system" becoming a blanket reality (with tech, esp. notebooks & desktops CPUs+GPUs).

However, I more stand with iaTa in regards to maybe being overly-pessimistic. Like you said, things can quickly trend the other way. Even if it doesn't, if these bigger corporations and their monopolistic stances duplicitously dictate their respective mass markets, I believe there will always be some that do the right/fair thing. It'll be harder, but there will be people who will fight against it or become motivated to find their own better way. That alone is hope. It might matter less relative to the "misled" masses, but it does matter. Though more difficult, you will always have the choice to buy that problematic-unfixed (purposely or not), locked-down system or to not buy it. So overall, I guess it's just for us, however few, to remain vigilant. Discussions like this in public, online forums like NBR def helps. My ("optimistic?" ) 2 cents.

 

Well see, I'm not trying to say that that's where things are headed 100%. But I am saying that we're headed there. The reason we're headed there is because the majority is voting with their wallets that locked down, soldered, anti-upgrade, anti-consumer laptops are most popular. Not that every laptop is anti-consumer or anti-upgrade... for example Clevo's P6xxSx series might be soldered, but it isn't locked down or anti-consumer as far as things go. Anti-upgrade is a given with the soldered-ness though.

But let's be honest. The more people show a demand for certain things, the more people roll with it... think about it. Macbooks sell like hotcakes. Is the Macbook a particularly good machine? No. It isn't. But it looks and feels good to the touch, and it works, and people can abuse the apple care, so nobody cares. Still buy. If people are showing that they're willing to buy locked-down and anti-consumer hardware, what's going to happen? I just hope that people realize what they're doing before the market as a whole ousts the pro-consumer things.

 

I know, that problem was because of each card throttling different, messing up the screen refresh...the fix was to disable throttle via vBIOS Mod.

The mobile GPU throttle is going to be a major problem for VR in SLI on stock vBIOS.

 

That's why you're here, based BIOS and/or vBIOS modding asian being of flying phoenix.

Or something.

I've not slept in like 36 hours forgive my naming scheme. Basically, thank you we appreciate you <3

 

Macbooks haven't been selling like hotcakes. There was a point, about five years ago, where Apple had inched passed Toshiba for the top notebook vendor in the world title and then the netbook and notebook market collapsed when Apple announced iPad and then Google started pushing Android tablets. iOS and Android thoroughly gutted sales. Macbook sales over the last few years have been barely more than noise compared to what Apple has been raking in from iOS devices and their App Store.

That's started shifting again. Apple reported in April that Macbook sales were cannibalizing iPad sales. This jibes with winter holiday shopping reports that suggest we've passed "peak tablet".

 

I hope this offends the Jolly Green Giant... https://forums.geforce.com/default/...ng-hotfix-driver-353-00/post/4543326/#4543326

It's almost impossible to get a rise out of these brain-dead imbeciles. I'm trying to push all the wrong buttons, but they seem to not pay any attention to the content of their forums.

 

I can tell you 100% that there is no additional ACPI/SSDT throttle code present in P570WM BIOS and (unlike the driver and AW sBIOS) the Clevo system BIOS also 'ignores' the vBIOS throttle tables...
(not using them to additionally limit total system power draw, throttle CPU etc)

But as we all know Mobile Maxwell now has 9 throttle tables...cough...Turbo Boost tables...
(up from 8 on GTX 8xxM, 3 on GTX 7xxM, a single one on GTX 6xxM and none on GTX 5xxM)...but I am sure NVIDIA has nothing to do with that...