RTX on a dedicated card?

Hi,

Is there any truth to this?

I read rumours Nvidia may implement this feature from 2020 to make RTX more usable for those who don't or can't afford high performance GPUs?

I suppose it's like how our Nvidia Control Panel provides the option to use PhysX on a separate card.

 

They already have RTX support for GTX 1080, it's just not good at it. The only thing that's going to make it more affordable is continued iterative performance improvements in the hardware plus more competition when AMD can finally enter the game next year.

I think we're still quite some time away from high performing RTX being super affordable. The 2060 Super can do some low level stuff decently at 1080p and it's not ridiculously expensive, $399 is mid-range prices.

 

I don't mind paying for a Titan/Ti card. I just hope the Ampere cards are betterly optimised.

What sort of RTX support is provided for the 1080?

 

Software fallback support, which is to say, really really slow.

 

IDK, it's possible, but I think that time has passed for Nvidia. Nvidia had the chance to follow that more conservative route, gradually bringing RT RT on to the main GPU board, starting with a discrete RTX features card interfaced to an affordable GPU - giving customers the option to buy the GPU only until RT RT was in enough games.

That may be what AMD does in Consoles and PC's, perhaps that's what you've heard - discrete RT RT hardware not integrated with the APU die. That may or may not be how it is seen - depending on how the added hardware is interfaced - directly on the substrate or contained in an off APU package.

A discrete RTX card is what Nvidia could have done at the start instead of burdening every RTX card with the overburden of cost for implementing RTX on the same GPU card.

Instead of a GPU generation to generation uplift in performance at the same price points, Nvidia decided to force everyone to pay the burden of RT RT (RTX features) on every RTX GPU.

Nvidia has several high speed buses available to interconnect their GPU's with a dedicated RTX processing card instead of forcing RTX down every buyer's wallet.

With a little ingenuity, some marketing - co-marketing with game developers - Nvidia could have sold the RTX future as a bundle of RTX only card + game bundles, perhaps with quarterly "game passes" to add new games that supported RT RT.

Then the rest of us could have saved $200+ on each GPU purchase and when we saw enough value to RT RT - with enough games bundled in to make it worthwhile, we could have opted in.

Then another generation of GPU's without RTX and another faster RTX dedicated card, and then another pairing the next generation...

Until the technology was there to put them on the same card at a generation to generation same tier pricing performance jump.

An opt-in gradual generation to generation progression would have been far more palatable than what Nvidia has stuck us with.

I am worried that the next generation Consoles that would have been awesome just with their base CPU / GPU hardware performance upgrades alone are going to risk turning in to RTX failures trying to push RT RT. Instead of high FPS in Consoles now we get RT RT BS.

Gamers aren't ones to tolerate bad performing games or overpay for features they don't need. Burdening the new Consoles with RT RT hardware + overburdening game developers to pull it off in time for the next Holiday season may be asking for too much.

After all that I can imagine gamers will have the same reaction to Console RT RT in games - nothing special, more FPS robbing eye candy, how do I turn it off?

All down to Jensen Huang at Nvidia jumping the gun on RT RT before it's time, messing up the whole eco-system of gaming for nothing, and jacking the prices up so high Nvidia can't seem to sell enough GPU's to stay in business, with Nvidia GPU sales continuing on a downward spiral:

Global GPU shipments up in Q2’19 reports Jon Peddie Research
AMD leads the quarter with gains in desktop; Intel and Nvidia saw lower sales quarter-to-quarter
https://www.jonpeddie.com/press-rel...ments-up-in-q219-reports-jon-peddie-research/

• AMD’s overall unit shipments increased 9.85% quarter-to-quarter, Intel’s total shipments decreased -1.44% from last quarter, and Nvidia’s decreased -0.04%.

AMD Overtakes Nvidia in Overall GPU Shipments for the First Time in Five Years
Update 8/29/19 7:55am PT: Jon Peddie Research provided us with more market share information, which we added below. We also removed reference to graphics units present in consoles, as the report only quantifies PC-based graphics units.
[ If those Console systems CPU / GPU / APU's were included Nvidia would be far further behind, which will continue with 2020's new Console releases]
by Matthew Connatser August 29, 2019 at 9:10 AM
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-nvidia-gpu-market-share-report,40266.html

 

It's been proven over and over that add-on single-feature hardware like that doesn't drive adoption. The only way nVidia was going to bring RT into the mainstream was the way they did it by adding it as a feature in their new product line. In a generation or two it will probably be on every card they sell. IMO they did a good thing by doing it the way they did it. They knew they were going to take a beating from a lot of people, but this was the only way to do it correctly.

Those people can continue to cry and moan because the FIRST GEN of a brand new major shift in graphics rendering that significantly raises the bar for the first time since 3dfx launched the Voodoo Graphics. The rest of us can go along for the ride, and know it's only going to get better with each generation of iteration. If you don't want to jump on the RT train keep your 1080/1080Ti or buy a 5700XT.

 

Oof, that's a pretty egregious exaggeration.

 

What features in GPUs have done any type of paradigm shift since then? It's been iterative features like shaders, AA algorithms, super sampling, ambient occlusion, etc.. I guess MAYBE CUDA/OpenCL...

 

Fixed function pipeline vs. programmable pixel and vertex shaders had a huge impact on graphical fidelity. Halo PC running in fixed function mode compared to using Shader Model 2.0 looked like completely different games, a much more drastic difference than modern games with RTX off vs. on.

 

The discrete GPU is itself "add-on" hardware with a single feature "3D" rendering.

Aegia Physx add-on boards were successful and would have continued to be successful if they hadn't been bought up by Nvidia, made proprietary, and integrated into Nvidia GPU's.

There are lots of examples of successful add-on's: a vast range of various network add-on's, controller interfaces for a wide range of mostly industrial use, and of course audio processing boards which even though there are more high-end integrated audio on motherboards, they are still a long lived category of "add-on's"

The key element here is that all of those add-on's had a useful purpose, a useful purpose that people wanted enough to purchase for their own use.

Nvidia knew that RTX was crap from the start, the technology wasn't ready - there were no games - Nvidia knew an RTX add-on would take years to gain acceptance no matter how shiny the in game eye-candy was, as nobody would want to pay extra for it to reduce their FPS.

For Nvidia to stick that junk into their consumer gaming GPU's and force it down people's throats was the most egregious rip-off scam, using RTX / AI "technology" as it's snake-oil, and unfortunate Nvidia fan's wallets as it's mark.

Going along for the ride? You mean avoiding being conned by Nvidia into wasting money on RTX GPU's? Or, do you mean forgoing an entire Nvidia GPU generation or two / three generations because of overpriced RTX GPU's?

That all sounds more like getting *off* the ride: forgoing being "taken for a ride".

Nvidia's half-cocked half-baked RTX features - with DLSS already fallen by the wayside - and RT RT beginning to be shunned by game developers that don't want to take away resources from actual game development to integrate Nvidia's BS into their game - even with offers of $ from Nvidia.

RTX is a giant mess that's affected everyone's joy in gaming negatively one way or the other and it looks like Nvidia's push for premature RT RT features are getting shoe-horned in to the next gen Consoles too which could wreck them and their games for generations as well.

The way I see it RTX is a horrible thing, it's done horrible things to the gaming hardware and gaming development industries - driving up the prices and expectations only to fall flat on delivery.

I'd be happy to see RTX disappear completely and not come back to haunt us until it's ready - until it's worth the added costs it demands - and that should have been another 5-10 years.

 

Yeah RT is such a scam that Nvidia adding it to the 2000 series has pushed AMD to add hardware RT to their RDNA GPUs, and the new 2020 consoles from Sony and Microsoft are both going to have hardware RT solutions as well. Guess what that means? The number of games with ray-traycing features is going to sky rocket next year.

Your thoughts on the matter have always been so overwhelmingly misguided. Take off the blinders. Nvidia pushed the industry forward with its decision.

 

Nvidia forced RTX down people's throats whether they wanted RTX or not, and it turns out most don't want RTX, so they turn RTX Off to get back the FPS they do want.

RTX owners, after waiting with baited breath for weeks, then months, then more than a year later, and now there are still nowhere near the number of promised games released with RTX support:

This list is from Nvidia's RTX marketing BS at release promising what games would have RTX support *soon* - from over a year ago:

NVIDIA Lists 21 Games with RTX Real-Time Ray Tracing Support
Ron Perillo / 1 year ago
https://www.eteknix.com/nvidia-lists-21-games-with-rtx-real-time-ray-tracing-support/


And the reality is that now only 7 games are listed as having some kind of RTX support, but only 3-4 are AAA titles - a year after release, and only 3 of the original 21 games promised have materialized - *3 games* :

Here are all the games that support Nvidia’s RTX ray tracing
These ray-tracing games will help you push your GPU to the limit
By Jon Martindale August 28, 2019 9:10AM PST
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/games-support-nvidia-ray-tracing/

Sure, in the same way as promising the 21 games at RTX release Nvidia says 10 more are gonna be coming soon, so that makes what 3/7 x 10 = so about 4 more PC RTX games might actually eventually show up - soon = over the next year?

And now because of Nvidia's RTX BS we have to put up with the same RT RT BS in Console games and Console hardware in the PS5 / XBOX next generation.

Except it's gonna be even worse in the show vs no show percentages. Why? Because the Consoles are always under-powered as compared to the PC's of the same generation. Because Console developers are always trying to squeeze just a few FPS more to hit a constant 30 FPS or even more rarely 60 FPS in AAA titles.

Do you really think any Console game developer shooting for the most FPS to get good game play on their Console game are gonna waste time shoe-horning in RT RT - except for those games sponsored $$$$$$ by Microsoft / AMD / Sony?

Just like Nvidia pushed through some RTX features on a few AAA titles on PC in the last year - the same over promising of RTX support BS will happen on Console games of the next generation.

There may be some kind of RT RT "Lite" that will allow next generation Console games to claim some level of RT RT support, but it won't be full RT RT support - not in 1st generation Consoles with RT RT, just like it has been with 1st generation Nvidia RTX GPU's on PC's - only partial RTX features were doable in each game.

Just like Nvidia's RTX marketing BS on PC's we now have to put up with the RT RT marketing BS on the next generation Console's and games.

Just when customers and developers thought they were gonna get a new hardware generation of Consoles to bring their game FPS up to 60 FPS, or even more - they've had those FPS gains taken away for RT RT.

If game developers want to support RT RT on the next generation Consoles they have to forget about their higher FPS dreams, and give up their FPS gains for RT RT Eye Candy. I don't think there will be many Console game developers ready to shoe-horn in RT RT festures compromising their game play FPS without being fed $$$$$$$'s from Microsoft, Sony, and AMD.

And then we're gonna have to put up with RT RT BS with the next generation of AMD PC GPU's not long after RT RT on Consoles is released to support the hand full of next generation Console games with RT RT features porting over to PC's.

What a waste of time and effort, and our money. Well, not my money.

 

Looks like I'm not the only one that has noticed RTX has been a giant waste of time and resources, with RTX still failing to deliver promised results more than a year after release.

Nvidia RTX Ray Tracing, One Year Later: "Just Buy It" ...or Maybe Not?
Hardware Unboxed
Published on Oct 25, 2019


He points out so many failings of RTX point by point, yet tries to put a positive spin on it where there is none, I consider that a disservice - he should call RTX out for what it is - a giant waste of resources and time.

 

If AMD and Intel invest in RT acceleration hardware (lets not forget RTX is just a extension to the DirectX API (DXR) and Vulkan that anyone can use) then we can call it a success.

For one I'm glad nVidia is trying to push the industry forward. It's brand new and it's first gen. Someone had to take the hit to move the industry forward. It wasn't going to happen in this day and age unless it was baked into a complete solution. They did the right thing. We'll see this technology go through more hardware and software iterations over the coming generations of releases. It's just a sneak-peek into the future that's an actual WORKING solution today. Not a bad MVP. If you don't want to get on board the train and wait for one of the next trains that will eventually come into the station people can feel free to buy Pascal, Turing GTX or AMD Navi.

nVidia knew there was going to be a lot of loud detractors, they took a hit to invest in the future and get the foundations out there. I'm sure in order to be first as well. They are a company after all, it's a good marketing angle and something to combat the hit from the crypto-crash.

 

Nvidia misused the roll-out of the nascent RTX technology to push overpriced GPU hardware - falsely claiming 2xxx GPU's are "special" or more valuable because of RTX - whereas in reality RTX was a boat anchor that detracted from the performance and "value" proposition of the 2xxx GPU's.

Hardware Unboxed's take on how Nvidia should have handled RTX is just as I've been saying, to honestly aprise customers - buyers - of the infancy nature of RTX, how it's not going to be of value to you until a few generations of development and a few generations of faster hardware have been produced.

The true value of RTX isn't now, it's years down the road - far down the road past when you are buying RTX today.

Nvidia should have focused on the generational improvements in performance instead and sold it as it truly was - a modest performance improvement generation to generation, which would only allow a modest price adjustment - or better yet no price increases.

The generational price between 1080ti and 2080ti for example should have kept the price category unchanged @ $699 cost the same instead of decreasing the price of the 2080ti to $599 for having the increased burden of distraction provided by RTX.

Instead Nvidia took a negative - a pig's ear (RTX) - put a coat of lipstick on it (DLSS), and sold the 2080ti at the price of a silk purse @ $999++.

In other words, the RTX GPU's are a total rip-off in price vs value, generation to generation.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/nv...e-cap-chip-maker-bet-analyst-says-51572017854

That is a market puff piece trying to get the Nvidia stock price back up (to $290) despite bad sales results for all of 2019. Imagine someone trying to blow "hot air" into an ever deflating Hot Air balloon (Nvidia) - trying to keep it afloat.

There is enough investment money out there with blinders on that responds to the "hot air" as the Nvidia stock price has gone from $124 to $222 over the last 52 weeks despite Nvidia giving quarterly reports showing sales shortfalls and high inventory retention:


Nvidia is continuing to experience sales shortfalls and have high inventory on the books, it's not a pretty picture in reality - sales are decreasing quarter to quarter and inventory (5x historical average) is piled up on storeroom shelves - GPU's aren't selling:

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NVDA/nvidia/revenue


https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NVDA/nvidia/inventory

Nvidia screwed themselves over with the RTX 2xxx overpricing and failure to deliver on ray-tracing in 2019, and I don't see this improving in 2020 for them.

We can only hope that AMD's PS5 and Xbox next generation consoles, now saddled with Ray-tracing because of Nvidia's greed, don't have the same failures to deliver useful ray-tracing enabled games as Nvidia has had with RTX enabled games on PC's.

Console games are in a continual battle trying to keep FPS up to 30 FPS or 60 FPS and I don't see game developers getting excited about further reducing their game FPS with performance killing ray-tracing.

Nvidia would be in a much better place today if they would have played it cool with ray-tracing like AMD was (is?) doing, building up the software and hardware with developers over the real time it takes to build a complex new technology and deliver it cleanly to the public.

 

I had already referenced the crypto-crash of 2018, that stock crash wasn't due to RTX. I figured you'd try to show that stock trend, I had already looked at it myself.