The hopeful of keeping MXM 3.0b alive thread!

It seems we number few (those of us that haven't fled to a desktop setup yet or who can't )

This thread's purpose is to keep the hope of a new MXM 3.0b card alive. Whether it be AMD or Nvidia based it doesn't matter.

I welcome data, speculation and anything else related to the topic!

To start I post (or should say re-post) this image of MSI's 1060(M) MXM 3.0b card. We all know there are problems that exist with Pascal:

- Heat. A 1060M card is probably the only viable Pascal card for 3.0b anyway despite running efficiently
- No LVDS support. Something that needs testing but a likely barrier to overcome
- Supply. Where to find this card to try and establish supply if it turns out to be a suitable upgrade.

MSI 1060 MXM 3.0b card

However there are some positives if the kinks can be worked out:

-Performance- rumoured to perform very similarly to a desktop GTX 970. This is at a level 10-15% solidly above the 980M and at power consumption levels of a 970M.

-OCable? Perhaps and if it OCs well then expect it to match a desktop GTX 980 and more. The desktop version of the card already does so the potential is there.

-This community. We usually find a way if we work together towards a common goal

 

HP and DELL just refreshed their ZBook 17 (G3, different chassis than G1 and G2) and Precision (7710, different chassis than 6x00 series). They usually keep the chassis for at least two generations. I looked at the disassembly guides and there seems to be no room for odd shaped MXMs, so chances are that we'll see standard MXM-Bs for a while. Not sure if they'll support LVDS, since both machines are eDP. The downside - they'll come with Pro markup (especially the Quadros).

 

subscribed

and good find, i wasnt aware that the 1060 came in standard 3.0b form factor i was just focused on the MSI 1070 thus far, but that would require significant dremeling inside my machine....

 

Here comes an unpopular view:

I've been around long enough to know that we, as end users, have very little influence (as a minority group), no matter if every NBR member supported this... With that said, I can't support this knowing that MXM has its limitations and we'd be supporting "holding back" innovation in favor of our own selfish need to maintain upgradeability, all to save a few bucks. I hate BGA and always will, but I won't support MXM if that means sacrificing technological advancement. If there's a way to have the best of both worlds, I may support that, too.

I support the advancement of technology. Hell, at least I'm honest.

 

Buy every year, or twice a year, it's up to you. I don't have a cash tree, if you have a spare one, I'll give you my address to send it. As for the MXM's viability, I can write you an essay, but so what? It wont change anything. This topic is for these of us that hope that there would be one last upgrade, before we buy another machine. Afterwards? I shrug thinking about what it could be afterwards. I'll most likely keep my current machine as a not-very-efficient on the go power and build a desktop.

This topic reminds of the MXM 2.1 (II and HE) topics back when most transitioned to MXM 3.0. There was a surprising amount of options, so I'm positive that we'll get our last round of upgrade.

 

1070 from msi

 

yep thats the one i was referring to in my previous post

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Not holding back advancement J Dre. All the mobile cards are bastardised MxM 3.0.

No what I want is choice for at least one more generation.

Keeping to the 3.0b spec simply allows many of us to upgrade to newer tech on the cheap.

The *only* limitation is power consumption. 3.0b is good for up to 150w. Nvidia could easily have kept 3.0b ref for up to 1070.

Iam all for advancement but at the moment I dont see any advantage of for example the msi 1070 bloated 3.0b shape.

Perhaps next gen will scrap mxm and go to nvlink connector. Then you can talk about being held back by mxm.

Ditching the 3.0b ref while keeping the mxm 3.0 connector and at the same time removing all support for LVDS is a move to greedily prompt many to throw their current systems to upgrade.

What a waste. Unfortunately this is the way of society today. Throw away and above all do not try to fix and prolong. The same mentally/socially could be applied to relationships between couples these days....divorce and take the easy but unrewarding way out rather than fix and work out the kinks to forge a better and stronger bond like older generations did. It is all a product of how modern western society has developed.

Consuming beyond our means in an unsustainable manner. Compare products made during the 70s and 80s and compare with products made now the difference in *quality* is as vast as the mental and social differences between the generations.

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*200W

I'm pretty sure we've had MXM pull well over 150W in the past, especially since Khenglish over on T|I took a GTX 980 desktop card core and put it on a 980M card (which means no power connector) and managed to overclock it and have it benchable.

 

yep, id also say 200W. ive had my 980M up to 180W and it only gave out because of its sissy mosfets/power delivery on the board, not the mxm connector itself...
would be nice to have "one last upgrade" to go to. maybe an 1160 might do the trick with sufficient performance boost? although 1060 is a good candidate form factor wise the performance boost over 980M is meh...not worth the hassle

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Well it's actually - voltage supply (usually 19.5V) * 10A (that's a constant) = ~195W and this is the maximum allowed peak power, by spec at least (some are going lower than that, M15x for example is 7A, that's still ~130W). It was going to be part of my essay I was going to write, but I deleted it, because I saw no point.

Yup, that was part of the essay as well.

Here's the essay:

MXM 3 is pretty future proof. The only real limitation is size, which restricts robust power delivery in high power applications, that's why all the odd shapes. Then again, there's M5500M, a standard MXM-B 150W GPU. Overclocking took a handful of MXM-B GPUs close to (some probably over) the maximum allowed power and as @jaybee83 mentioned they were held by the VRM.

MXM 3 outputs 4 DP, a VGA and LVDS. Ditching the later (because eDP, and/or because unwillingness to support, same could be said for VGA, so if you want VGA, you have to count on external chip) would gain room for 2 more DP, also there are Reserved pins, which I would guess could be used for another DP, bringing the total to 7 DP without LVDS and 5 DP with LVDS, while the total display count is whooping 8 or 7 (w/o or w/ LVDS). But nGREEDIA can't output that much, so what's the point anyway (at least they think so). One of the reasons why MobileWorkstations rock - docking stations. In same model machine Quadros output up to 4, while FirePros up to 5 (limited by the current MXM and machine design, since EyeFinity is capable to handle 6 displays).

It would've take a slight revision to make it HBM compatible - the size would've been the same, just the hole spacing would've change. The HBM chip is bigger, but with the lack of vRAM, the space could be utilized for VRM. No push in that direction though.

All in all I can't see a single realistic limitation, that would hinder the "progress" (returning 20 years back to entirely soldered components is not what I would consider progress and don't get me started on the environmental impact of this throwable (buy, fry, throw, repeat) trend). The current machines that have removable GPUs still use that interface as pointed by @King of Interns.

Why ditching the MXM 3 then?

I already said it - HBM. If the standard was kept and adapt for HBM, it would mean that AMD can compete as well. After all they have a head-start there. Also there wont be room for excuses to not use AMD, although there's R9-M295X which wasn't given the chance. Instead nGREEDIA took the advantage they have now and push for custom implementations, this way securing the laptop market. AMD has the consoles, so it only makes more sense nGREEDIA to secure the laptop market. If MXM-HBM was a thing, Fury is quite likely to be skipped, but Vega is supposed to scale up and down no issues, while nGREEDIA's HBM would be mid-2017 (optimistic). A bit late to the party. Also the MXM-HBM would've fit in the same room the MXM-B did, no custom work required and no odd shapes. So turning things around, they made it seem that AMD are late to the party.

There is a mention in the GTX 10xx release slide that gaming notebooks have 30% sales growth, compared to 4% for the consoles. If you want to keep the growth steady, you want to ditch that user replaceable component. Because a motherboard would cost A LOT more than an MXM GPU. So when the GPU dies, the consumer would just go and get the new model. The GPU is the main cause of a laptop failure. Also the GPU is fastest to hit the obsolete mark, while the CPU and RAM are viable for quite some time. So making it proprietary means, again, steady growth.

There's also the fact that the mobile 1070 is 2048 cores, while the desktop is 1920. Can you point me at a single time in the past or present (why the mobile 1080 has the same cores count as the desktop? or the 1060?) where that happened? The mobile 1070 was supposed to be 1080m, like the early rumors suggested. That extra push just granted that AMD would look irrelevant and no one would even consider them, let alone buying one.

The fact is nGREEDIA dropped the only open and somewhat standard thing they had - MXM, because it doesn't fit their plans. The only thing MXM is hurting is nGREEDIA's and their partners' bottom line. NOT the future. Why don't we drop PCIe as well? That's what MXM is, only that the external output is wired back through the slot. The thing is nGREEDIA is pushing to ditch the PCIe as well, securing the entire PC market. So actually, they are hurting the future. Proprietary sucks.

ANYWAY, you can see with a post like this, how the thread could be easily derailed. This thread is meant for those of us who care about MXM-B and whether or not there would be a suitable upgrade option. The rest - there are quite literary a ton of other topics to discuss disposable POS. Oh and don't forget to buy each new machine that hits the market. If you do forget, the white smoke would be the "friendly" remainder. What makes laptops better than consoles then?

 

Ironically consoles last much longer than the typical modern BGA gaming crapbook so you have a point there. What is the difference....

AMD ought to put 2 fingers up and develop an HBM MXM 3.0B gpu and gddr5x versions too

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I'm still hoping that 1st gen MSI GT80 getting two generations of replacements means the same deal can find a way to the GT72.

That said, I think my 980m will manage the ports this console generation offers so I might not upgrade unless it dies.

 

Well :/
Nvidia Geforce GTX 1060 6gb Gddr5 Pascal- 974,61€

 

This is for a laptop with gtx 1060 right? Tell me it's not just for mxm card.

 

Probably just the MXM card at that price.. Keep dreaming of laptops at that price for at least a year

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Nope that sounds about right. €1000 for 3rd tier card that sells for €200 in more powerful desktop form doesnt make sense even now at launch. It must be for whole laptop.

Still I expect around $400 - $500 for the card.

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nope. im afraid hes right:

http://www.ceg-hardcorecustom.com/c...mxm-upgrade-for-notebooks-clevo-and-alienware

1060 MXM 6GB = 975€
1070 MXM 8GB = 1272€
1080 MXM 8GB X = 1605€

that. is. insane....


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Have you looked at MXM price gouging in the past? Couple this with the fact that ONLY the 1060 appears to be compatible with most older MXM machines and it makes perfect sense to me.

 

Considering 980M goes for $600 new and $500 2nd hand while this website asks for €800. Hmmm I dont exactly trust it.....

Also what is a 990M??

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990m is the desktop 980 for notebooks

 

600 new? It's 720 on RJtech, where are you seeing it for 600?

 

When I sold mine a month ago woodz was selling them at $600.

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CEG hardcore custom is legit theyre handling their warranty directly through clevo service centers.

also, consider that u get 12 months warranty with those MXM cards, whereas RJTech only offers 90 day DOA iirc. u can even upgrade to 24 months for 119€ extra.

also a bad sign: the clevo 1060 is optionally offered with a power cable, which means it also has an external power connector like the two top tier clevo cards.... ugh

@clevo-extreme: any chance u guys might jump in here and show us folks some pictures of the clevo 1060 MXM? much appreciated

 

Fair enough. Those prices though!

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The Clevo version won't fit anything under P750DM.

MSI is the only hope for a 1060 that fits standard MXM machines.

 

Djeez.... wel I'm glad I sold my M17x R4 and bought a cheap GT72, upgrading the R4 would be impossible without a 120hz screen (edp) and it would have been ridiculously expensive to upgrade it to a 1060

 

Might as well get a new notebook so you can have pcie SSD, usb-c 3.1, HDMI 2.0.. etc etc

Sent from a 128th Legion Stormtrooper 6P

 

I don't know if you have noticed, but MSi GPUs are not that wide spread and the ones I've seen are mostly left-overs after upgrade. The other thing is that MSi requires Serial Number and some times to return the defective part (GPU) in order to sell you a new one. Don't know how this upgrade thing would happen, but if it is tied to a Serial Number it would be "fun" for the rest of us. Maybe @majster msi can shed some more light on the matter?

These 10xx prices... that's literary half the cost (actually more than that) of the machines they are going into.

 

Where did you hear that from? Link?

 

It was originally rumored to be called 990M. N16E-GXX which is what it says on the page when you click it and also on T|I here - https://www.techinferno.com/index.p...-gm204-gtx-980-m5500-n16e-gxxq7-all-variants/

 

For 900 I can get 1070 and i7-6700k in a desktop... They must be crazy

 

thats completely correct, i checked some prices last night and machines with 1060 and 1070 start at 1599€ here in germany (open market and preconfigured, that is. configured through a sysrem builder could potentially be cheaper)

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Even Quadros don't go that high (percentage wise). That's just ridiculous. Well, I'm looking forward for the FirePro (RadeonPro ?) and Quadro anouncements. I'm pretty sure that we'll get 1070 level of performance in MXM-B form factor.

 

that would be nice for us 3.0b folks

 

~1000 FREAKING DOLLARS FOR THE MXM 1060!?!!

...now I really need to find a way to latch on to the GT80's 2nd offering. $1k for almost-a-side-grade from the 980m is a ludicrous offer. So much so that MSI's promise of an upgrade path for GT72/80 owners shouldn't be considered a good faith effort with the 1060 as the offering.

 

Prices will drop. The mxm 1060 is only rated 80w vs the 120w of the 980M.

Still it features pretty beefy vrms for a 80w card. It might just clock up very well and with plenty of thermal headroom to boot!

Performing at moderately Oced 980M levels at stock (80w) while 980M would consume in excess of 130w to match it.

1060 @ 80w = 970
1060 @ 100w = 980
1060 @ 120-130w = 980ti
1060 @ 150w max = 1070

For the right price it could be a decent upgrade. Even M15x could run it at 980 levels. This of course all considering if the thing can be overclocked and overclock well at that.

Lets be positive.....

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Btw that part for sale on ceg is the clevo part not msi. I have yet to see the standard mxm 3.0b version of the 1060 for sale anywhere!

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Its a Clevo 1060... MSI ones won't be up for sale for a few months!

 

subscribed! I'm using a MSI GT60 with 870M, thinking of switching to desktop and keep the laptop for mobility. will be interesting to watch and see how this develop.

 

In case you missed, Make sure to have a look at this T|I thread, a lot of hardware info is there about the Pascal cards. Also folks this one too -> MXM Poll, Make your vote against the felony that these greedy corps pulled on us.

 

The poll isnt very clear at all. Firstly it doesnt draw attention to the fact that 3.0b has been dropped and that we want this to be supported.

Also i dont think pascal should be pitted against polaris. Either in mxm 3.0b form should be welcome from a camp facing zero choice.

Who created it? Dont see much point in voting.

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it was prema

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The problem is false marketing most morons believe that mxm 3.0b is limited to 100w.

It is hard fact that most modern mxm 3.0b laptops can supply up to 195w to a card and even an aging one like my one own can supply 130w.

The ONLY card requiring a custom board with special connector is the 1080. That when overclocked only.

If AMD come out with a properly binned rx480 on mxm running at stock speeds then we should be happy and welcome the choice. Such a card if priced below a 1060M could be tasty.

I stand by my belief that the poll is not easy to support. I ended up voting to switch to desktops as I dont have an allegiance to nvidia or amd.

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Fixed it for you. It's power supply * 10A by standard, so it could be 200W if you will, but I'm not aware of newer notebooks with 20V power supply. If there's a variation in the Amps, it is up to the designer/endorser. As for the poll - Polaris for me

 

Polaris in any form we currently know about may not be a performance competitor to 1080 or even 1070 but to discount the possibility of a price competitive alternative to 1060 is short sighted. I, and I reckon a lot coming from 7 or 8 series would think about a hotter, slower, much cheaper alternative to 1060. We need competition in ANY form to make nVidia (and Intel) think twice before they go on their next anti-competitive anti-consumer bent. Give them actual sales to lose as a result of their decisions.

 

480 performs basically the same like 1060 in most DX11 games except in maybe 2 or 3 titles?
Follow that up with undervolting the core only on 480 which brings down power consumption by 20 to 30W and raises performance by as much as 5% in some cases (and if the VRAM is additonally undervolted, power requirements go down even more - essentially, not all 480's were affected by high power draw, only certain %, and those that were not affected were actually pulling less than 110W on the chip alone, bringing overall power consumption from the wall (when coupled with other components) in line with what 1060 draws from the wall too)

So, yes, a properly binned and undervolted 480 would likely be on par with a desktop 1060. The actual power draw of the two might end up in 1060 favour on the mobility side, but 1060 mobility seems to be on par with 980M (performance-wise) while drawing 40W less.

 

1060 is I thought around gtx 970 level no? So about 10-15% faster than 980M.

Also if 80w is accurate then probably closer to 45-50w less especially when you factor in the OC required on 980M to match it

An rx 480 if downclocked to 1060 levels while binned well could easily run at same wattage

I would prefer a 100-110w rx 480M performing somewhere around 980 mobile and then a 85w rx470M performing at 1060M levels.

Price both competitively and with LVDS support in a mxm 3 0b package its a winner. Add crossfire support too..if the cards are overclockable then 1070/980ti (stock) performance is possible.

Come on AMD!!!!!!

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I wouldn't really count on LVDS support, seems like LVDS is really dying out these days.

 

LVDS is good as dead... It should be totally dead by 2017-2018