What ever happened to "Amazing" RPGs?

Started playing Chrono Trigger the other day, for the first time surprisingly, and I haven't had this much fun in a long time.

The graphics are dated, and the combat system is simple, but I'm experiencing nothing but pure joy.

Why is it so hard for game companies to produce products like this anymore? I think the last 2 real rpgs that I'm aware of are FFXIII, which is decent at best, and The Last Remnant, which again is barely decent (would be much better if the main characters wasn't ungodly rude and obnoxious).

 

Well there are different types of RPGs. I mean surely I wouldn't put Skyrim, Chrono Trigger and Fallout all in the same category. I would categorize CT as more "classic" style of RPGs but you're right in terms of that those types of RPGs are hard to find these days. :-/

 

Just because game engines constantly improve doesn't mean that turn based RPGs have to go out the window, sometimes strategy is more fun than simply mashing buttons or acquiring the best gear. Something I'm loving about CT are the cross character combos that vary depending on your party members. Stuff like that simply makes games fun.

I've played both Fallout 3 and Fallout NV, and I think the story line for both is atrocious. There are no characters that I was remotely attached to in either. I think companies overlook character development these days. I'm hoping Skyrim will be different, but since it's made by the same company I'm not sure if I should get my hopes up.

 

Yeah back in the handheld days I loved Fire Emblem. Great games.

 

dragon age origins
the witcher 2 (with new patch)


but I agree 100% with your original post.

 

I agree with DAO, and would agree with the original Witcher, but I feel like they turned the 2nd one (in both cases actually) into more of a hack n slash.

 

I felt that way about the first one, hmm.

 

DAO and the mass effect series are pretty damn good...

The problem is that RPG's have been around for so long, that people expect you to do something different (and rightfully so), while also making sure the game looks amazing graphics-wise AND having a large game world. It's really, really hard to do that while also keeping the game a traditional RPG.

Also I think char development goes out the window when a budget comes into the picture, or when the studio is being pushed to rush it out the door asap to compete with the next big game, or when the company simply cares more about making money on sequels than creating the ultimate RPG.

 

I think developers are trying something different hence the new mechanics.
Only time will tell whether these changes will be better or not

 

Not to mention, we've all seen the same old storyline again and again...

 

And we haven't seen the "Post apocalyptic" theme used 10x over the last 2 years?

 

Yes, I'm tired of medieval and fantasy RPG's. More Sci-fi/space based please. I'm sick of everything being an orc or sorcerer or thug or thief based 1500 years ago. Mass Effect was at least sci-fi/space based, although I did get bored of it after a while, but still enjoyed it nevertheless. Not everyone likes World of Warcraft for crying out loud.

 

Story line wise Id like to see some Gothic scifi or medieval rpg more in the likes of game of thrones where anyone and everyone could be the good or bad guy. Moral ambiguity would make an interesting game.

 

Most great RPGS came out way before WOW, and WOW is terribly as far as the RPG elements it entails. Sad face.

 

Lol...

Sorry, I didn't read any other posts but the 1st. But play infinite undiscovery.

That game is 100% hilarious. The name states it all. I had to lawl at the gamestop workers when I returned it. (btw, if you didn't already know, you can buy a game used at gamestop, play it for a week, and return it for full price value)

 

Still far fewer post-apocalyptic RPG's out there than swords and sorcery ones. Personally I prefer the atmosphere and mood of these games over fantasy or sci-fi, it's typically a grittier, more realistic fiction. Not that there's anything wrong with the different genres, but different genres appeal to different people.

Storytelling standards change from game to game as well. Fallout 3 (can't speak for NV since I haven't played it) is so expansive and vast that the cast of characters is more a broad pastiche of people the PC encounters throughout his/her journey. It's not totally open, but much more so than many other games, it's giving the player a world and telling the player to create his own story. The lack of romance and recurring bad guys (individuals, not groups) can feel flat to players who are used to being led through a story like most jRPG's do, but there's still a lot to see and experience. Additionally, part of the lack of likable characters in Fallout 3 is due to the setting - it's an anarchic world with minimal moral order, so many of the individuals who rise to the top are those without moral compunctions holding them back from doing whatever they can to achieve their goals.

The main issue is that you're comparing jRPG's to cRPG's. ChronoTrigger is possibly my favorite SNES, with competition from Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2) and A Link to the Past, but it's very linear. This allows the developers to control the player's emotions and experience through the game through plot developments, cutscenes, and dialog. Without that control, some people will feel lost or bored, while others will set out on their own adventures, getting swept up in their own stories.

Now, if the statement is that there aren't any good jRPG's coming out these days, I don't have an opinion since I don't follow that stuff anymore, but if the idea is that there aren't any good cRPG's coming out, I beg to differ, and a glance at the previous posts through this thread should suffice as an explanation.

 

Western RPGs are the best they've ever been. Thank you Bioware for Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins. Heard pretty awesome stuff about the new Deus Ex as well.

As for Japanese-style RPGs, I think there's only so many stories about spiky-haired orphans who find the self-esteem to stand up to their self-doubt and save the world from total cataclysm before it all starts to run together. Even otherwise-positive reviews of Xenoblade Chronicles have made this point. I think if FFIV came out today for the first time, we'd all find the plot predictable and the characters trite. But in 1991, it was fresh and new, and when we go back and play it again, we're overwhelmed by nostalgia.

As mentioned above, Deus Ex. Now.

 

I felt like the original Witcher was more hack and slashy.

Personally, I hate turnbased/micromanagement RPGs. The combat system is the main reason that I can't get through DAO (and I can't get through DA2 because the setting is just lame).

 

Why have you not played Deus Ex HR yet?

 

Deus Ex HR is an amazing rpg, probably one of the top of the last 4 years along with DAO and Fallout 3 (with Mods). Can't compare any game though to a classic like Chrono Trigger. To this day it is still my favorite RPG of all time, followed by FFVII. Those were games that actually got you to get emotionally attached to the characters and the storyline, Something game-makers are overlooking lately.

 

Radiant Historia on the DS is pretty incredible. It has a crazy branching story path that requires you to flip back and forth through time to figure out the way history is supposed to end up. The battle system is pretty simple, but enjoyable. I would definitely recommend this to anyone that has a DS.

Also, I agree with the need for more ambiguity. DA:O was amazing for this, as is DXHR. Most games that attempt it end up falling into the ME/Fable trap, which is 3 blatantly obvious options(evil/neutral/good). Every character is shades of grey, so treat them as such!

 

I can only speak for myself but IMO, Japanese developers got lazy and took the cookie cutter cliche approach wrt their RPG's. Gamers got a little tired of the land of peace is being invaded by evil and boy sets out to save the world.

Over time JRPG's lost out to WRPG's where fresh ideas and more mature themes took hold. In fact I have read on gaming websites that Japanese developers have admitted this.

 

I'll admit that I haven't gotten very far into the Witcher 2, but it seems like anything can be killed with any type of weapon. I remember in the witcher 1 you had to use a certain sword and a certain fighting style against specific monsters or you couldn't win. That's why the Witcher 2 seems more hack n slash to me, because it doesn't require any thinking.

And how can you not like turned based RPGs? Until a few years ago almost all RPGs were turn based. Basically you're saying you don't really like RPGs, but you enjoy FPS/Action games where you happen to level up.

 

DA:O was amazing in that there frequently was no way out of a situation that left your hands clean. You had to choose which flavor of ugly you could stomach the most. And that made it really interesting.

Now if only they'd add that sort of tough decision-making and moral ambiguity into a game with a setting and gameplay more like Mass Effect 2...I'd be in heaven. (It sounds like DXHR might be this...I'll try it when I get my new computer).

 

It was more than a few years ago. RPGs where combat is turn-based do not interest me (FF series and the like). The concept of an RPG does not necessitate the presence of a turn-based combat system.

And TW2 does require you to use the silver sword against monsters, unless you like doing next to no damage. It also emphasizes the use of signs more than the first one.

 

Just gotta wait for WoW 2 haha..

 

I think that a company would make tons of money if they could port all of the great PS1/PS2 RPGs to computer, or even PS3 I suppose. It's fairly easy to find anything made for nes/snes/gameboy with emulators, but it seems to be much harder to track down ps1/ps2/n64 (I don't really remember any good exclusive gamecube/xbox rpgs) roms.

 

I think it's MUCH harder to make a smooth-running ROM of a Playstation/Xbox/etc generation game instead of 16-bit ROMs.

However, you may get your wish anyway. Sony's just starting to experiment with this, offering ROMs of select PS1 and PS2 games on the Tablet S. It's only a matter of time before those same ROMs are available with new Vaio laptops and desktops, I'm sure. The selection is tiny now, but should swell dramatically over the next year.

 

That's awesome news.

 

PSX and N64 emulation were thriving years ago, though it's true that it's harder to get it working than previous generation stuff. PS2 and GameCube have been pretty readily emulated for a few years as well, and most computers these days should have ample power to run that stuff.

Of course, if you're not using a BIOS from your own system or your own copies of the game discs or cartridges, it's still piracy. Same for older systems as well, though that piracy is easier and more widespread. The old argument that it was almost impossible to get actual copies of most of those games is largely moot as well, because most of the popular games that get the most emulator time are available as re-releases.

A lot of those games will be rereleased eventually, if they haven't already been. That's part of the problem, though - it's great to have a great game like Ocarina of Time to your credit, and it's great to share it with a new generation, but when you're rereleasing too much old stuff it lessens the motivation to produce good new material. It also keeps your new stuff feeling trite and uninspired by reminding the players that you're basically rehashing the same old formula with your new games.

And really, for a lot of games, that's the core problem - it's not gameplay issues or that the writing is poor or the game world poorly imagined - it's a literary problem: they've been using the same hero's journey plus romance paradigm for so long that everybody knows what's coming. To tell a stand-out story, you either have to do what everybody else is doing better than them, or you have to do something new. The standard stuff has been done so often and sometimes so well that it's hard to impress with the old story arc these days, it's up to developers to wow the customer with something new, but that requires more talent and vision and is a greater risk, so it doesn't happen as often as we'd like.

 

I see your point, but I'm just so unexcited about most new games that have come out. I would rather go back and play some of the gems I missed like Legend of Dragoon, or Vagrant Story, than Rage or another Assassins creed game.

I honestly really enjoy the theme including a knight, a world in chaos, and a love story. I find swords and magic a lot more enjoyable to fight with than guns (I work with guns all the time, they suck).

I know it's hard to keep coming up with new and innovative things, but the market is flooded with FPS/3rd person Action RPGs. Just a few I can name without thinking are Rage, Fallout 3, Fallout NV, Borderlands, Deus Ex, Mass Effect 1-3, Skyrim, the Witcher 2. That's all within 2-3 years. I can't even remember the last time a traditional RPG has come been released, except the 2(The Dragon Age series comes close, but still isn't quite traditional) I mentioned in my first post.

You say that people are sick of these games because the same thing was released over and over again, but if that was true wouldn't MMO companies stop releasing WOW clones (even though wow technically cloned EQ2). There's probably 50 WOW clone MMOs out there, yet people still buy into the hype, I'm looking at you KOTR. So I'm sure there are other people like me who still enjoy JRPGs.

 

The JRPG segment is alive and well, just not on PC (not that it really was ever PC-based). Get a Playstation 3. They're down to $250. Then get yourself:

Final Fantasy XIII (linear but gorgeous)
Vandal Hearts ($15 download from the Playstation Network, good reviews, and it has turn-based, grid-based battles)
Enchanted Arms
Valkyria Chronicles (as much strategy as RPG, and great atmosphere if you're willing to deal with guns in an anime, stylized setting)

Etc. Or get a PS2 for $60 used, and play the PS1 and PS2 Final Fantasies (skip 8, but 7, 9, 10, and 12 are all worth your time), Okami, or the multitude of other JPRGs for the PS2.

tl;dr version: if you like JRPGs, go Playstation.

 

Condensed for space, not to be dismissive of anything else in the post.

1) Vagrant Story was pretty awesome. Isn't it more of an action RPG itself though? I'm not 100% sure, I don't remember if there's a turn-based element to it or not, but I thought it was more action.

2) My theory is that the rise of action RPGs is due to a few things: first, they're well within producers technological capabilities so they're more likely to go that route (earlier turn-based stuff added dimensions of gameplay that would have been impossible in action oriented games at the time, but are now much more feasible). Second, gamers are more and more conditioned to expecting constant interaction and stimulus, and action RPGs give more of that than turn-based RPGs. Finally, people like progression ala RPGs, and they like action ala FPSs; giving them both of these in one package has proven to be a winning combination, so they keep on coming.

Oh, and some of my favorite SNES JRPGs were action RPGs, incidentally; Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermore, and Seiken Densetsu 3 are all classics.

3) WoW caters to a different part of our minds than most JRPGs. It's designed to appeal to the obsessive collector in all of us, giving the player a nearly endless series of milestones to reach. Other companies do indeed copy this formula in their own MMO's; they're mostly just trying to get a piece of the pie that Blizzard has been scarfing on for the past decade. One might note that a great deal of those games fold within the first year, emphasizing that although it's a different category of games, the same rules of stagnation and innovation still apply to some extent at least. Nevertheless, WoW and games like it are not about delivering an innovative story or gameplay experience (well, there's an element of that), but rather about creating an environment in which there is always a carrot on a stick for the players to chase, so comparing the PC MMO market to the JRPG market is of limited relevance.

 

Exactly! Although, this can also stem from the lack of funds, deadlines and overall market competition. Deus Ex: HR is neither an RPG, nor a shooter. It lacks in both parties, but it is a successful blend which managed things to work out. Personally, I found this blend pretty unique and enjoyed every bit of the game, despite all the talk about the "cancers" that modern games can't live without --> cover based shooting and moral choice progression.

Also, the devs revealed some time ago that the game was set to be even bigger, with hubs in Montreal and another major city. Why did this not happen? It's obvious. In the end, semi cover based shooters with RPG elements seem to gain territory.

 

Deus Ex HR is so overrated. The stealth aspect wasn't impressive. The boss fights were dumb. The whole issue over future integration of technology into our bodies also stupid. People already are running around with artificial hearts and already are research into to enhance brain functions etc. It's not even a good discussion.

Mass Effect 2 probably the most overrated RPG of the past decade. I wouldn't even call it a "GAME." Mass Effect 2 was an interactive movie. And there was barely any "INTERACTIVE" movie time. You spend 80% of the time gathering your teammates, and then resolving their sob story. Only 10% gathering resources. Only 10% of the game was actually doing something. Wow, some alien race conspiracy, must get to their homeworld, go to the source. THat was it. That was the WHOLE game. Rest of the time it was gathering resources and dealing with the myriad of issues your group had.

Anyway, Witcher 2 and Witcher 1 are on my list of good RPGs of the last decade. DA:O was decent considering the garbage interactive movies BioWare has become attached to. DA:O is the only one that wasn't a movie for me and was an actual game. Though again most of the time I thought was spent gathering your group for the final push at the end. So again with DA:O 50% of time spent gathering group. 30% gathering loot, gear and dealing with group's issues and doing fetch quests. Only about 20% on the actual game story.

Witcher 2 to me was about 5% interactive movie. 95% gameplay. No time wasted on gathering your group. The whole time you went from unravelying one conspiracy, one mystery from another that all came together at the end. At least in that aspect, Deus Ex: HR is still better than the interactive movies BioWare made/makes.

Also Witcher 2 was awesome in that I DECIDED the fate of EVERYONE in that game. So awesome. I decided what happened to Lethos. I decided what happened to the King. I decided what happened to the Prince. I decided what happened to the sorcerresses. I decided whether to save the girl or not. I decided whether to kill the villain or save the elvish women. The game is so EPIC and AWESOME in this aspect. BioWare games, everything was pretty much done for me, and I was there for the ride. Witcher 2 is by far the best RPG of the last few years for me. No question, hands down.

I hear FO3 and FO:Vegas are good. But I just couldn't stand the gun controls, and the scenery and story of FO3 series. Not saying it's bad or laying judgement on it since I barely played either. I couldn't play them, that was that. No interest, bored stiff.

 

You didn't like it. It doesn't mean it's not good. I love when people proclaim themselves the arbiter of quality when it's a subjective thing anyway.

 

I agree with the initial poster. I think all of my favorite RPG's are on older game consoles.

1. FF2
2. FF3
3. Chrono Trigger
4. Wild Arms
5. FF VII

6. Star Ocean 4 - Space based RPG for whoever was looking for one. I really enjoyed this game, however I almost felt embarrassed playing it if other people were watching. Some of the characters just drove you crazy.

7. The Last Remnant - There are so many different ways to play this game. Beware, this game takes forever, and is almost impossible to master without using some sort of online guide. The weapon creation in this game is so ridiculous, your main character will never achieve his endgame item unless you look up all the steps to make it.

 

You fail to acknowledge that "gathering your teammates" and "dealing with the myriad of issues your group had" generally, didn't involve sitting around talking and talking and talking (like you make it sound), but instead involved combat missions just like the central missions did. Escaping the ambush in the space station prison (finding Jack) or assaulting the geth colony (gaining Legion's loyalty) were no less exciting combat missions than getting the Reaper IFF. The climactic battle at the end of the mission where you find Tali was one of the best battles of the game.

Also...DLC added hours of missions. Probably doubled the length of the game. And these were well-put-together missions that felt like part of the original, already-substantial game, not junk just tossed together to earn another $5.

You're also the ONLY person I've EVER met who wanted more time spent mining resources than less. How monotonous was that. You really wanted more of that? It was like playing Minesweeper.

Spoiler

You like deciding the fate of people other, yet no mention about deciding whether Ashley or Kaidan dies in ME1, whether the rachni queen lives or dies in ME1, whether the Council on the Destiny Ascension lives or dies in ME1, whether you save the factory workers or let Zaeed's antagonist escape in ME2, whether you help Samara kill Morinth or vice versa, whether you rush to the final battle after your crew is kidnapped or whether you let the reapers jellify them one by one while you build up the strength of your fighting force, etc?

 

Chrono Trigger is my next Retro LP

Just about finished with Secret of Mana 2

 

Chrono Trigger <3

I agree, but you have to look at the gaming community and look at what the current trend is.

Face it, Most gamers are teenagers and teenagers want shooters/action/blood every single 10 seconds, otherwise it's not fun.

 

I don't think that's right. I believe a survey was conducted about a year back that said the average age of gamers was ~27, which should mean that games have a more mature audience. Whether that's actually true or not is debatable.

I wasn't aware Vagrant Story was an action RPG, due to the fact that I said I missed it, but it was highly rated and still something I would like to go back and play. Some others that are on my to do list are: FF3 (I actually have this so it'll be next), Wild Arms, Star Ocean series, Xenosaga, and maybe FF8 (I have this too, but couldn't ever bring myself to beat it).

Also I do have a PS3, but it's in storage right now and I won't be able to get to it for another ~8 months. I've found consoles to be frustrating, though, because I'm always on the move. I've been playing FFXIII on my friends PS3 down here for a couple hours a week, and I'm now about 1/2 way through (for the 2nd time), and am not sure if I'll even be able to finish it before my deployments over. If I don't, then I'll have to start from where ever I left off on my copy, on my PS3. It's so much easier on a PC where I can just move save files around at my will.

Cliffs: Average gamer: 27, list of retro games I want to play, PCs are much more convenient than consoles.

 

I personally loved FF13 and cant wait for FF13 part 2.

just my 2cents lol.

 

I'm 30 and I'm a gamer. A lot of my friends are still casual gamers. However, we play probably 1/10th as much time, and buy 1/10th as many games, as 14-year-old gamers. I think that statistic is only fair when you count each gamer as one gamer, regardless of how many games they play for how long. When you weight "full-time gamers" heavier than "once-a-week" gamers, the average age plummets.

Wild Arms is one of the half-dozen ROMs that Sony already offers on the Tablet S. Just as an FYI.

PSP and/or Playstation Vita? The PSP has, among other games:

Disgaea
Jeanne D'Arc
Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII

The Top 25 PSP Games of All Time - PSP Feature at IGN I'm sure Vita will also be heavy on JRPGs and tactical JRPGs.

 

I do have a PSP, but I don't know what a Vita is. I also can't download anything from the internet, as my personnel connection is very limited. I have, and have beaten multiple times, Crisis Core and FFT. I think FFT has an amazing story and character development, with a rediculous amount of twists and turns.

 

PS Vita is the next-generation PSP. It's been officially debuted, but I don't think it's in stores yet.

 

I haven't read past the OP but the over all tone of your thread is a pretty bias towards JRPGs which pretty much limits your game selection. IMO, the problem is companies (Mainly S/E) are trying new things in an attempt to increase their game sales because unlike their audience, they haven't grown much and it's caused their sales outside of Japan to decrease. Most of these new battle systems suck, a prime example is FF13. I have not once, never in my life been angry at a developer for making such a terrible video game until that game...everything about it was wrong. The characters were your stereo typical JRPG toons with their ridiculous hair styles and bizarre clothing, the game was extremely linear, etc, etc - people have bashed this game in to the ground and if you don't already know you can read up on it. It's these simple mistakes they are making, it's predicable. Also, removing the ability to roam around is slowly killing the JRPG market. My single most favorite part about playing RPGs is knowing that eventually I will get a dragon, air craft, horse, what ever and the world will open up.

I like being able to take my time with an RPG, play it the way I want to play it. Companies like S/E have taken that away and I know it will not change anytime soon. I personally, I've out grown most JRPG's; I rather play RPGs like Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc. So what ever happen to amazing RPGs? They still exist. You just need to realize that the quality of JRPG's are on the decline and western RPG's are getting better and better as time goes on.

tldr - their audience has grown up and they haven't

 

Well you actually bring up a good point: I feel that games in Japan are crazy creative. I love the Japs

Mr. Mysterious

 

Disagree huge. Far as I'm concerned, I've only played TWO western RPGs in the last 5 years. Witcher 1 and Witcher 2. DA:O, DA2, ME2 for me were not even games. They were interactive movies. Not RPG to me at all, about the same experience as me watching a fantasy or Sci-Fi movie.

I hope SkyRim is different. And I'm not the only one who has noticed this, even developers of RPG have mentioned this. Witcher 2 and Skyrim devs have both said their games will be true RPG games, not movies. Which were obvious direct insults at BioWare interactive movies.

 

I wasn't a huge fan of DA. ME though, we're going to have to agree to disagree. But when you're comparing Japanese vs Western RPG's over the last 15 years, come on - they're not even on the same planet. All opinions aside - just look at the sales numbers

 

How was DAO NOT an RPG? How does that make any sense at all? What about it makes it NOT an RPG?