Which GPU would you choose for gaming?

I'm looking at the Crossfire dual 3870 solution, and I'm wondering how it really compares to the other options I'm considering for my next gaming laptop purchase. I have a few specific questions.

1. How does the Crossfire dual 3870 solution stack up from a power/heat standpoint?
2. Are there still issues with Crossfire in non-Crossfire optimized games?
3. Have we heard anything at all from ATI about better mobile GPU support in the near future?
4. What kind of performance could I expect from a Crossfire dual 3870 setup compared to a single 9800M GTX?

 

Ok I'll try my best to answer your questions.

1. It's quite hot and it eats quite a bit of power, but it's comparable to other high end GPU setups.

2. I'm not sure, it probably depends on the game, not all games can properly support/run multiple GPU setups(Crossfire or SLI).

3. The HD4xxx series is coming out sometime this year and the HD4850 mobile version is said to perform roughly similar to an underclocked version of its desktop counterpart.

4. The dual HD3870 will best a single 9800M GTX in performance on games which support and properly run multiple GPU setups by a significant margin.

Oh and for further reference, you'd best post your question in the "Mobile Graphics Card Info Page: most GPU Questions answered" thread over here. You'd probably get more answers there

 

I've been wondering this myself. From what i've read on this forum, some users with OCZ/M17s w/3870s have got in the 14k-15k 3dmarks. While a user with NP9262 with 9800m GTXs is getting in the 15k-16k 3dmarks.

But keep in mind, I believe the OCZ/M17 is overclocked to get those results, and you must have a nice CPU to get the most out of ATI cards.

And some are saying that the ATI cards are great in benchmarks, but Nvidia are better in actual gaming. Also since Nvidia are supporting mobile drivers now, thats a plus, but I don't really mind modded infs from Lv2go.

I'm on the fence about an OCZ/M17, price is really great compared to Nvidia, but soon as I get that, mobile 4850/70s will come out, but that's the life of a pc gamer

 

I would go for the 9800M GTX. I think the SLI is especially overkill, and there isn't 100% support for it between games.

 

I'd say a more accurate estimate (not overclocked) is 14500 to 14900.

 

ATI GPUs in general perform quite high in 3dmark, but 3dmark does not directly translate into performance.

But as someone said, ATI has yet to release proper mobile drivers while Nvidia has heirs released therefore the driver support is a bit iffy.

Mind you, the HD4xxx series is coming out for laptops so I'd say wait for that(if you can) and see how well they stack up.

 

If they perform anything like their desktop counterparts you know they'll be cheap and fast.
PS. If you really need it now, (don't quote me on this, heard it somewhere, but I believe it was confirmed->) you could get the 3870's and upgrade them to 48xx's in the OCZ (not sure about the M17).

 

So I've heard. Maybe we'll hear something out of CES this week? I'm hearing "sometime this year", but this year has just begun, so that could be a long time. The fact that the 3870's haven't been out all that long makes me guess that the 4xxx series isn't necessarily just around the corner. :/

 

Is it safe to assume that by "other high end GPU setups" you mean SLI or would it actually be comparable to a single high end nVidia card in this respect?

I've not bought an ATI card since the days when one of their selling points was the fact that they ran cooler than nVidia and was just wondering if that still held true.

 

Well yes, I'm not expecting them this month. ATI doesn't have as much of a foothold as Nvidia in the notebook department and a few people speculate the arrival of the HD4850 mobile version will help them secure the high end notebook market .

Mind you, Amazon.com has already posted the MSI model with the HD4850 for pre-order sale so it mustn't be THAT far away either lol

Well someone somewhere speculated the mobile HD4850 performs similarly to a desktop HD4830 or an underclocked HD4850. Looking back at their history, ATI's mobile GPUs can actually compare somewhat to their desktop counterparts, unlike Nvidia .

The OCZ and the M17 are the same chassis and use the same barebone so I'm guessing if it applies to one it should to the other I believe .

Yes I meant other SLI setups although note that a single HD3870 is more or less comparable to perhaps a 9700M GTS-9800M GS(correct me if I'm wrong ) so perhaps the heat produced by two of them might compare to a single beefy 9800M GTX.

One thing to ask yourself is if you need a dual GPU setup >.>

Well I'm not an expert in cooling of GPUs, but I've heard stories of both Nvidia and ATI GPUs of the high end category getting hot. It's an inevitable fact. I'm guessing the more important question is whether or not this heating becomes problematic.

ATI's main sell point these days is usually price/performance ratio in the case of desktop GPUs. An ATI machine is generally cheaper than an Nvidia machine of the same performance. Mind you, in the notebook world, Nvidia currently has a higher foothold than ATI, making this hard to confirm for laptops.

 

1) In terms of power, each card has a max power consumption of 55w, which lower than a single 9800M GT or GTX. In terms of heat, it really depends on the cooling system. On the Arima/Flextronics chassis (only mass produced chassis to feature the cards), max temperatures are around 80 degrees C with an idle in the low 50s

2) I would Imagine that there would be issues in non-Crossfire/multi-GPU optimized games, but that would be either a driver issue or an issue with the game. The latest mobility modded drivers addresses most of the driver related issues.

3) The only thing so far is the Mobility 4xxx series, which MSI is offering so far. It's still unclear who is responsible for driver support (whether it's ATi or the ODM that use their GPUs), but so far, ATi mobility GPU is lacking, and the situation is even worse with nVidia stepping up and offering direct mobile GPU support/drivers.

4) In non multi-GPU optimized games, the 9800M GTX would perform better than the 3870s in Crossfire by as much as 25%. In multi-GPU optimized games, the Crossfire solution would outperform a single 9800M GTX by as much as 50%

* If price were no issue, I reckon most would go for the 2x 9800M GT in SLi out of those choices due to driver support (though it performs similarly to the Crossfire 3870s in some games). Factoring in price per GPU and most would say that the ATi cards are the better deal.

 

if $$$ & travel is in consideration: ATI Mobility Radeon Crossfire dual 3870

if travel is not in consideration: build a desktop

if still needing a laptop for travel & gaming and money means nothing to you: nVidia GeForce 9800 GT SLI

The GTX still doesn't get on my list.

 

Well, MSI said in their website that the MSI GT725 and GT727 will be available at CES (in 3 days), and also bragged about being able to "break 10000 points on 3Dmark" which I assume they mean 3dmark06 (granted that it's the basic version).

The GT725 is supposed to go on sale/ship this month.

 

Well if I read the article right, all the new MSI models(GX725/727, GX627 and all the netbooks) are going to showcase at the CES so I'm hoping that means that they should be out for consumer purchase soon after(hopefully within the new few months).

 

That is a very valid question. The largest factor in my consideration of a dual GPU solution is the likelihood that whatever laptop I settle on will include a WUXGA display. My desktop display is a 22" 1680x1050 (WSXGA+?) LCD driven by a GeForce 8800 GTS 640MB GPU. I really like this resolution and kind of consider it the sweet spot. It does a very good job on just about any game I care to play at native resolution (I'm a stickler for running at native res). When considering switching to a DTR notebook *and* bumping that resolution up to 1920x1200 or so, I also have to consider what GPU will continue to provide me close to the same gaming experience I've enjoyed on my desktop.

My understanding has been that the higher resolutions is where Crossfire/SLI start to shine. That's really the main reason I'm even looking at them, as I really don't like the notion of a laptop that runs any hotter than it needs to.

Thanks for your input.

 

Hmm more VRAM usually benefits higher resolution(if the GPU can effectively utilize the VRAM that is) so yes, a dual GPU setup will indeed yield a better performance over a single one, but as I've said, it really depends on how the game is coded. Some games are poorly optimized and do not take advantage of multiple GPUs and some even don't properly use multiple CPUs >.>

Also note, the 8800 GTS 640mb in your desktop is roughly equivalent to a 9800M GT(or 8800M GTX) in terms of brute performance. So that's something to consider.

Lastly, you mention that 1680*1050 is the resolution you prefer most and you speak of it coming from your experience on a 22" monitor. Now, I'm guessing your notebook will be smaller than 22"(probably 17"?) and you intend to bump up the resolution?

This purely my opinion, but a smaller screen and higher resolution to something you already considered "ideal" will probably not yield anything better. Everything will just become loads smaller in this case and you'd reduce the future performance of your machine by picking a higher resolution. What I mean is that you like playing on higher resolutions and that requires power. This means that in a few years time, your GPU might no longer have the power to play at such a high native resolution anymore without toning down the settings considerably. To be honest, I'd prefer a middle ground between settings and resolution(leaning slightly more to settings) so that I'd be able to secure being able to play at native resolution in the future. Just my thoughts though

As you said, the more power you bump into a laptop, the more hot it becomes. I'm perhaps still behind, but I still consider laptops behind desktops in terms of brute power and therefore gaming. A laptop is still less efficient for gaming and unless one is moving around a lot(and feels the need to game a lot while moving) then I wouldn't recommend a huge beefy notebook(which then kind of defeats the purpose of moving it around a lot lol )

 

Those were actually my sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, the notebook pickings at 1680x1050 are slim (as are matte screens, but that's another subject ).

I am willing to move to 1920x1200 if necessary to end up with the machine that ultimately suits my needs. I *do* want to be able to do my gaming away from my office if need be. Also, I am an applications developer, so the extra real estate, while undoubtedly needing some getting used to, may not be such a bad thing.

That said, if anyone could recommend a 17" gaming beast with a WSXGA+ display, I'm all ears. Short of rambling into "What Notebook Should I Buy" territory, I just require it to support multiple hard drives as well as provide ExpressCard and eSATA ports. Now that I think of it, perhaps I *should* throw a FAQ together in the other forum.

 

This or This?

 

lol all the polls are almost the same

 

The Mobility Radeon 4xxx are almost out. If the Mobility Radeon HD 4850 is anywhere near as fast as the desktop version, it'll smoke even the 9800M GT SLI option and for potentially less power consumption.

Hell, if the Mobility Radeon HD 4670 even has similar performance to the desktop version, the 9700M GT (and the other mid-range Geforce 9M GPUs) may be completely out of the option for all mobile gamers who don't like big, heavy 7+ lbs laptops. Nvidia's GF 9500M, 9600M, 9700M = Desktop GF 9500 GT. Kinda sad... The Radeon HD 4670's performance is on par on that of the desktop Geforce 9600 GT. So should the mobile Radeons be almost as fast as their desktop counterparts, we have a clear winner from ATI.

 

Well ATI's notebook and desktop GPUs are actually somewhat comparable whereas Nvidia's GPUs from both sides rarely are.

I heard that the mobile HD4850 will perform similarly to an underclocked desktop HD4850 or near a desktop HD4830 and supposedly it'll be cheaper so here's to hoping it'll be a good purchase .

 

I really MUST see this when the new Mobility Radeons come out. None of Nvidia and ATI's single GPU (non-SLI/Crossfire ones) mobile solutions are faster than the Geforce 9600 GT/8800 GS. If the Mobility Radeon HD 4850 really is as fast as the HD 4830, which is also as fast as the desktop GF 9800 GTX which is faster than the 8800 GT (my current desktop's card) and 9600 GT, Nvidia's whole "high-end" mobile GPU line just got obsolete.

If the Mobility Radeon HD 4670 is as fast as the desktop one which is as fast as the desktop Geforce 9600 GT, might as well just get the MR HD 4670 than those power-hungry 9800 GT SLI / 3870 X2 cards. The current mid-range line up of both sides may be made obsolete by the MR HD 4670 as well. Woo! Go ATI! I've been wanting an upgrade for a year now! Too bad all I can afford is a mid-range laptop. =/ One with the MR HD 4670 + 14" 1440x900 screen will be perfect. I just hope it's actually as fast as the desktop one. Gosh. I'm blabbering about this again and again. I'm psyched.

 

I wud have gone for 8800m gtx SLI.

 

I have the 3870's in SLI, but I would rather nVidia if I had the choice simply because of their drivers.

 

9800m GT SLI is already up there as an option.

 

lol I wouldn't get my hopes up TOO high yet, but MSI is showcasing their new notebook models(those with an HD4850 and HD4670) at the CSE 09 in 3 days so we'll probably be hearing more about these GPUs .

Hopefully they're as good as they sound . And even if they were partially as good, it'd still be worthwhile since it'd give Nvidia some competition in the higher end GPU market for notebooks and competition is always good

 

The MR HD 4670 hopefully should be good. I've been waiting for a replacement for my laptop for a while now and I need something that still gives me more than 4 hours of battery life (even with a 9-cell battery sticking out since I'm used to my lappy's 9-cell sticking out as well) without compromising performance. The GF 9500/9600/9700M GS/GT series is a let down for me. They're NOWHERE even close to the peformance of the desktop Geforce 9600 GSO.

 

Hopefully with the new Ati mobility they should slap up NV for those confusing naming scheme!

 

Yeah Nvidia's naming scheme for their GPUs is a big mislead. I remember some people buying a 9600M GT hoping to get a desktop 9600 GT performance O_O

As for battery life, I'm not sure how the new ATI GPUs will perform. The higher end desktop ones are definitely power hungry monsters so idk how the mobile versions will perform.

 

9800GT SLI. Desktop cards are much more powerful than notebook cards, since you didn't put 9800 m GT SLI

 

I hear the Mobility 4850 card would consume 55w of power, which would be the same as the Mobility 3870. Not too bad...though wouldn't be surprised if the final number is 60 or above.

 

The naming schemes aren't misleading in that respect. Notebook and desktop parts can't be compared by either companies. You will never get same or close performance comparing same numbers ie. 9600M GT and 9600 GT.

 

Remember, nVidia is releasing mobile GTX 2xx chips to compete as well, so we'll see how they stack up.

 

Actually, the new mobile HD4850 and HD4670 are said to perform closely to their desktop counterparts where an HD4850 would perform near a HD4830 or an underclocked HD4850. This is all but of course news and rumors and we'll have to wait until they come out to say for sure, but it certainly is somewhat promising

Also, I didn't just mean that aspect, but also in the re-branding. Nvidia has had a lot of re-branding happening compared to ATI(I don't remember any recent re-brands from ATI actually if any >_>). For example, the 8600M GT re-branded as the 9500M GS or the 8800M GTX re-branded as the 9800M GT. This can mislead customers into purchasing the "new" GPU thinking they're getting more when inf act it's the exact same GPU. The pefect example is when Alienware "changed" their 8800M GTXs to 9800M GTs and people actually returned their laptops to change GPUs...lol

 

jeez, when is this happening, i seriously am holding back $2k right now to see if theres any new mobile video cards being released....

 

I don't remember where I read it; maybe it's on google. Probably.

 

what in the world is going on there

 

Select chips go 55nm, while others are phased out; new chips, based on 40nm GT2xx architecture, are scheduled for Q3-Q4.

That's my interpretation.

 

Yeah Nvidia is also having a re brand of all(or at least most) their GPUs so don't mix that up with the new upcoming ones. I don't remember where I read that, but I heard that depending on their cores & series, they'd be re branded differently with a GTX, GX or GT prefix or something of the sort. I'll try and look for the article and thread on it.

The main hype about the new ATI GPus aren't necessarily their performance(which should be good), but the fact that they're advertised as being cheaper than their Nvidia counterparts. The MSI 17" with the HD4850 is priced at 1300$ on Amaozn, which is still a cheap price for a high end GPU which is said to best or be on par a 9800M GT/GTX.

 

I would go for the single 9800M GTX, it will run the coolest for a good OC and use less power.

 

Not necessarily true. If the laptop's heatsink is designed for only one GPU it will be no cooler than a laptop with a HS designed for 2 GPUs.

 

So you're saying that the dual GPU sinks are designed such that the same amount of residual heat (not transferred out of the machine) is produced as from that of a single GPU? Interesting. I wouldn't have thought to be quite the case.

 

Not quite sure I get what you mean so I'll try to explain it like this.
HS1 can dissipate 50W of heat/power whatever. It is in a system that can have only 1 HS. Max cooling ability = 50W = 80C (just random numbers)

HS2 (2 parts remember) can dissipate 100W (50*2) and is in a dual GPU system. It's individual GPU cooling ability (each HS) is also 50W (so the GPU temps are the same, there's just 2x the amount of heat to remove, so 2x HS).

 

What I was saying is that all GPU heat sinks bleed some heat into the chassis that isn't evacuated out the vents. That's what makes the machine hot. I would have thought that there would be more of that unmanaged heat produced by two GPU's than one, unless a 2-GPU heat sink is designed to be more capable such that it is able to process enough more heat than a single to basically net an even result.

Kind of like the fact that a cup of coffee would have to be a good deal hotter to melt two ice cubes at the same rate it could melt a single cube.

I'm no physicist or anything, but that's the way I would have thought it to work.

 

But HS 2 would be nowhere near twice the cooling ability, it would probably be able to disipate 75W max and that's why (unless the 9800M GTX naturally runs hotter which it might) the single GPU should run cooler.

 

Would these be cheaper than nVidia cards if one was looking to upgrade in the future

My card is MXM-II so which of the new ATi cards do you think would fit my laptop, that beat the DDR3 9600M gt (still going strong )

 

Possibly the 4670.

 

And how do you think that compares to my current card

Any ideas??

 

And why not? 2x the cooling hardware (just assumptions for the principle) should be able to dissipate ~2x the heat (if it isn't, then the system wasn't designed properly). And by your logic, it would be impossible/impractical to have 2x anything in a laptop because the 2nd HS would have to be smaller and thus wouldn't be able to cool the 2nd card enough so it would have to be massively downclocked.

The difference is in the cooling ability of the system (just play along, that's why really, no 2 laptops have the same temps).
System 1: 17", 9800Xsomething, releases 50W of heat (just a number)
System 2: 17", 2x9800xsomethings. Since each 9800xsomething gives off 50W of heat, the cooling must be able to dissipate those 100W, otherwise as I said earlier, it would be impossible to have 2x anything in a laptop.

Hopefully this can clear up my point.