nVidia Optimus, why do DTR's have it? What can be done about it?

Hello everyone, I just bought a Sager NP9170 with the GTX 675Mx. I am curious as to why, since this is a DeskTop Replacement(DTR), do I have to have nVidia Optimus on this machine? I don't want it. I never run it on battery so I am not, in any way, concerned about battery life. So why does nVidia insist on forcing this system crippling software onto my machine? I would love to hear everyones thoughts on this. I would also love to hear your opinions about Optimus, do you love it, or hate it? Do you even ever unplug your computer, or does it sit on a desk like a real desktop replacement?

 

One of the reasons I bought my Asus G75 was that It had no possibility of using Optimus...

 

In what way is it system crippling? From my understanding muxless graphics switching will give maybe a ~5% performance hit versus nonmuxless, but other than that I can't think of a reason why Optimus is a bad thing.

 

Just be thankful you're not stuck with Enduro. Optimus is (for the most part) seamless, and doesn't really affect performance negatively. Enduro on the other hand has been a complete nightmare for Clevo owners with the 7970m.

I agree though, the fact that the new Clevos can't disable switchable graphics is a huge negative. Fortunately AW doesn't have to deal with this issue. The M17x can disable Optimux/Enduro and run off the dedicated card, and the M18x doesn't have switchable graphics (though it can run off the HD 4000 if you need it to.)

It seems that switchable graphics are here to stay though. Clevo made a huge mistake by going muxless; it's one of the reasons I sold my NP9150 and don't plan on going back to Sager any time soon.

 

Heat, battery life, noise

 

Well, guess I'm in the minority, but I LOVE Optimus.... why force the dedicated GPU to run 24/7 wasting power and heat when the IGP does the job just fine most of the time and when no longer sufficient, it's a completely seamless transition. Yes, you have a DTR and you aren't interested in any mobility, but being a long time 17" DTR laptop owner myself, I'd more than welcome the opportunity to actually use my machine on the go for more than 45 minutes. I loved my G73JH and Toshiba x205-SLi1 and Sager 4780, but Optimus is a must in the future in any laptop I buy... battery life will literally improve double or triple, and honestly I like the idea of my GPU running icy cool saving itself for when I want to game. Why waste the power simply because it's available?

As far as issues, I haven't had as much as a hiccup with Optimus... sure, occasionally an obscure indie game or small developer game won't automatically utilize the Nvidia GPU, but it takes about 10 seconds to click the dedicated GPU option either through the Nvidia control panel or even "right click run with gpu". I realize there were some initial issues years ago, but I have yet to have any concern or problem, so just flat don't understand the fuss. It's very possible I'm missing an issue here, but all I ever read is maybe there's a "~5%" difference" yadayada...

I for one will not be buying a laptop that doesn't at least offer me the option to utilize Optimus or it's equivalent. I simply can't see the point in a laptop regardless the size, and love the extra battery life. If I simply wanted always stationary non mobile always plugged in battery and power be damned computing, I'd build a desktop

 

But it does have optimus. Since it has a mobile GPU and a mobile CPU then it definitely has optimus running on it. I was gonna ask... Can you prove that it doesn't have optimus? But instead I went to Asus and chatted with a tech and he said this!

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Now I am outraged! How dare Sager force this Optimus crap on us? I payed lots of money for this laptop. I should have a choice on whether or not my system runs optimus or not.

 

Now this I do agree with, while I do love Optimus and the benefits it brings, options are always better and if possible it should be up to the end user... curious what it involves to make it user selectable or not to the manufacturer.

 

While, sure, it's good to have options, I still don't see how Optimus is "crap".

 

Some of this is on you for not doing your due diligence when purchasing the product. Every major Sager reseller has this info on their product pages, and if you had questions, the time to ask was before you handed over your money, either to the resellers or the folks on this board.

 

I am not saying optimus is crap. I am just saying that my system never leaves the desk. I do not use my computer as a laptop, I use it like a desktop. I should have the option to have optimus or not. I don't need it. Heat isn't an issue, neither is battery life, because my computer never gets unplugged. I could see needing optimus if I went to coffee shops or whatever with my computer, but my system is so large carrying it around to those place would be a chore. I just do not need optimus and I want full use of my GPU. I get horrible benchmark scores because all the benchmarking software see's the integrated graphics instead of the dedicated GPU. I just don't like or need optimus.

 

If Optimus works, why all the hate? You get the same performance as without and it operates automatically without you doing anything.

 

Optimus (Enduro)? What is that?

 

Complaining about a laptop with Optimus that you just bought is like complaining that you want to drive a manual transmission when you bought an automatic. You bought the wrong laptop for you then.

NP9170 isn't necessarily a DTR. It's a regular 17" notebook. It's portable and gets 3-4 hours battery life (up to 5+ with latest BIOS) which isn't a DTR. With Sager the NP9570 is a desktop replacement and even has a desktop CPU. There is also the NP9370 which does not have Optimus or Enduro, which sounds like the notebook you should have bought. Bottom line is that there are other options if you don't want Optimus. The only potential "crippling" thing that Optimus may do is restrict HDMI output resolution. A couple oddities with Optimus I've found is that switching is restricted to exe files and sometimes it auto detects a certain exe to be used for a specific game and it's not the right game.

Personally I would like to be able to manually turn it off, but that also adds cost and complexity to the design. I use my NP9150 with 680m unplugged quite frequently and even run it 3-4 hours. To be honest even with the NP9170 to have a 680m or 7970m and be able to still use it 3-4 hours on battery is quite incredible.

 

My P170EM also remains plugged and stationary just like yours, but I kinda like this Optimus thing. My P170EM remains dead silent, I can only hear the hard drive's faint spinning and the fans kick up every 3-5 minutes for 10-20 seconds and die back down, depending how long the laptop runs. I always wondered how a P370EM sounds like when idle - do its fans also die down or just spin constantly?

Anyway, I've tested older games, which I have in abundance, that I could use my Intel HD 4000 with, and playing without the dedicated GPU proved to be a similar experience to idle, so why crank up the power in cases where it's not really needed? I'm thinking more in terms of my personal comfort and the laptop's longevity rather than the 'conserve power, heal the earth' hippie stuff. If it bothers your benchmarks, then like HTWingNut said, perhaps you should have bought a P370EM, instead.

 

Laptops that run only on the dedicated card are just as quiet. The fans don't kick in until the GPU reaches a certain temperature, so it's dead silent at idle. I don't think it'll improve longevity either. My GPUs sit at 0% utilization and around 35C during light tasks and web browsing.

 

Oh, good to know, thanks!

What happens if you load a light game like Castle Crashers or old games? Do the fans remain quiet then as well?

Anyway, if that's indeed the case, then there's not much point in this whole Enduro/Optimus thing other than perhaps battery life.

 

I'm not totally sure, since I haven't done any light gaming on this laptop yet. If the fans did run, I imagine it would be at a low speed since the GPU(s) wouldn't be getting very warm. Either way, it shouldn't be much louder than a machine with Optimus/Enduro.

Switchable graphics are a nice feature in smaller notebooks, but I prefer just running with dedicated cards on larger machines like the M18x. If I ever need battery life, I can always switch to the igpu with fn+f7

 

When I play older games my GPU runs pretty cool and fan isn't very loud.
Not sure about them monster lappys, but I would recon it's pretty same situation.

 

Yes, I can play older games on the integrated graphics and the CPU only reaches 55-60 degrees C. The fans come on but it's nowhere near the noise I would get if the discrete GPU were running.

And PLEASE, can someone link me to any article anywhere that says Optimus or the Mux-design decreases performance? Everyone seems to throw this out there but I've never seen it anywhere.

Edit: If it truly is a 5% decrease... that's 3 fps at 60 fps. Wow, crippling yeah?

 

HTWingNut, I didn't buy the wrong laptop, I got educated after the fact. I have surfed the web and watched movies with my NP9170 unplugged and unfortunately I got nowhere near 2+ hours of use. And before you ask yes I did have it set to power saver mode. Aero was turned off everything that didn't need to be on was shut down including but not limited to WiFi. I got 1 hour and 57 minutes. Oh and the screen brightness was reduced to 80%. The only laptop that I know of that is similar to the NP9170 is the Asus G75, it has a 17 inch screen and it is similar in form and function it however does not have optimus. The only reason that, that laptop wasn't an option for me is because it isn't office friendly(AKA it doesn't look professional enough). I am in and out of peoples house repairing and installing computer components so I need a machine that looks like I know what I am doing. Not just sitting around playing games all day. No offense to anyone that owns one. I just think the Asus G series and the Alienware computers look like they are targeted more towards teens.

As far as what optimus does to my computing experience. Well for starters it ruins benchmarking. I can't get good solid scores because most benchmarking software sees the integrated graphics and automatically selects that instead of the dedicated GPU. What games does optimus ruin? GTA4, I can't play it because it isn't optimized for selective graphics. And yes I have tried updating it and all of my drivers, I have tried rolling back drivers and selecting GTA4 in the nVidia software. It doesn't help at all. Those are just my issues.

The other laptops you mentioned NP9370 and NP9570 were way out of my price range, otherwise I would have opted for them. Trust me about that. I had to stick around $1,300 to 1,500 max.

I still think it should be our decision on whether or not the particular optimus drivers are installed or not. After all, we know what we need more so than nVidia. At least I do. Like I said before my computer is never unplugged. The only time it runs on battery is when the power goes out. Which is very rare.

 

Odd. I haven't had any problems involving Optimus, save for maybe a couple of older/less graphically intense games defaulting to the HD4000 (e.g. CSS). Haven't had any benchmarks with permanent problems, either. If I had a benchmark accidentally default to the IGP, a simple selection solved it and I got correct scores.

I understand why you dislike Optimus, but you seem to be having an atypically bad experience with it. The issues you're having shouldn't be occurring.

 

First if you're only getting less than 2 hrs then something isn't right. Make sure to turn off backlit keyboard (Fn+* on keypad), set Clevo control panel to "quiet" mode (Go to desktop, press Fn+ESC), and have fun.

The issue with benchmarks and GTAIV using the IGP is easily fixed. You can quickly and easily switch which GPU your benchmark is using by going into nVidia control panel and setting that specific game to dedicated or integrated GPU. Takes all of 10 seconds and once it's set, it's set, no issues with benchmarking or games.

 

If you're having such a huge problem, and the solutions proposed here are either not working or not what you wanted to hear, either return or sell the notebook. If the former and you purchased it from one one of the major retailers, many of them have a 30-day no-questions-asked policy. At this point, if you have taken the troubleshooting steps outlined here and you are still unsatisfied, there is nothing else we can do here.

 

I'm sorry but that just isn't true. GTA4 has been known to run choppy even on high end systems because it's a game issue. And Nvidia is the easiest to force usage of the discrete card. Just look in the control center and there's an option to use the discrete card for everything.

And screen brightness is one of the biggest ways to drain battery. If you use the Hotkey app that comes with the Sager (or download from their site) and use their Power Saver and 20% screen brightness, I can get 4 hours. Keep in mind that apps like GPU-Z or most other programs that monitor GPU usage or temp, will actually activate the discrete card so you won't see the advantages of Optimus.

And every single benchmark I've ever used automatically uses the discrete card, which ones are you talking about? And did you try forcing the nvidia card?

 

I have to agree with smellon here.

Its good to have a choice with MUX switching, where you can disable the automatic system IF the system is known to not work. With AMD and their Enduro for example I might demand MUX since I would be a little weary to trust AMD, but not with Optimus that works on 95% of the software. With my MSI notebook I have yet to encounter any problem after playing many games. There was one game where the system would use the IGP instead of my 680M but it took me like 10 seconds to edit the settings for that game. After that it worked like it should.

Both Clevo and MSI refused to use Optimus earlier due to some performance drop, but ever since Optimus 2.0 came out with almost no drop, both OEMs now have Optimus on all their notebooks with the 600M series.

I really don`t understand the hate for it.