"Lite" and "Arcade" are completely different. Apache Air Assault is a console title, so pretty difficult to even categorize it under "lite". It's arcade. Lite is just that it doesn't implement full or close to full avionics and flight model. Arcade is pretty much just that, just turn and burn and away you go. Hawx is arcade too. There's things called "study" sims which are like DCS Black Shark, A-10, Falcon 4, Longbow 2, F-15, F/A-18 where they try to realize the true experience of the cockpit and flight model to its fullest. Limited ammo and somewhat realistic combat (although exaggerated to make for fun gaming). Then there's "survey" sims like IL-2, USAF, etc that implement flight models and cockpits but just not as detailed nor require a detailed knowledge of the aircraft to fly. Typically limited ammo but a little more unrealistic combat battles (i.e against all odds types of scenarios) These are "Lite" sims. Then there's "arcade" which are really jets in the sense they look like them. Some may implement fake "stalls" or require a little effort to manage speed in turns, etc, like in BF3. But it's nothing like managing control surfaces properly. Not to mention typically have unlimited or regenerating ammo and unlimited fuel.
The Saitek X-52 is an excellent budget HOTAS (well lack of rudder, but twist stick to make up for it) that doesn't require hundreds of dollars and works great with study and survey sims.
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oh THANK YOU! all of them looks awesome games and I am buying A10 Warthog right now! +rep
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DCS A-10 is great, so is Wings of Prey. Black Shark was hard to get into because it was a foreign aircraft that I had little familiarity with. Hoping they add Longbow.
And I'm not saying arcade combat flight games aren't fun, they are, and it gets people interested in the genre without having to read through dozens of pages of material just to take off or fire a missile.
And Mitlov you have a habit of turning things that people say into something completely different. Please stop trying to be master of the universe. We have He-man for that. -
I can work with those classifications. Having cut my teeth on the Dynamix sims of the early 90s (Red Baron and Aces of the Pacific), I've always liked survey sims. Personally never really been into the study sims, either the Jane's sims or Falcon 4.0 in the late 90s or the DCS games nowadays.
RoF and OFF both appear to be really good survey sims (and I've always had a fondness for WWI and WWII flight sims that focused more on dogfighting maneuvers than electronics management). Once I'm ready for a new game, I'll probably try one of those. I'm excited about Cliffs of Dover, eventually...I'll need a next-gen computer before I can run Cliffs of Dover, and besides, Maddox has always needed a couple years to debug a game (I remember patch after patch with IL-2:FB, though each patch made it better than the previous).
I'll probably never try the DCS games. Like I said, not a fan of either modern air combat (too many electronics) or study sims. -
If Oleg had his choice he would continue to update IL-2 forever. With 1946 it turned out to be such a huge array of aircraft and missions that you could play forever. It's too bad they never implemented a dynamic campaign the likes of Falcon 4. It would have made for a phenomenal game. Dynamic campaign sims are the best. Too bad there's so few: Falcon 4, Enemy Engaged, MiG Alley. But thanks for reminding me of Apache Air Assault since it's only about $7 at YuPlay right now. Bought and downloading. It was like $35 last time I checked, too expensive for my liking for type of game it is.
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You know that I couldn't pass up a thread like this since I live and breathe nostalgia...
I think we last discussed this subject two months ago...
"Disappointing pattern that I see in gaming"
However, I'm glad that this one did get past the first page...the article on cracked.com was perfect for me...just as you, Getawayfrommelucas, and the article suggest, the modern gaming problem is more likely with me than the gaming industry...
And the "Call of DOOty" video that HTWingNut posted is hilarious..."Explosives" DLC Needed still has me laughing...one of the most recent (and less attractive) developments in the gaming world that has leapt from consoles (where HDD storage made DLC possible) right onto the PC gamescape...Doom had so, so, so, so, so many custom WADs available for free...different maps, different characters, different sounds (anyone play Simpsons Doom or Beavis and Butthead Doom?), etc...and it was free...yes, free...did I mention it was free? And some of it was actually better than the original...
But I digress (as I always do)...
masterchef341's post had the ring of personal truth for me, also...I've only remembered the good and forgotten the bad (I have bought crap on the 2600, the C64, the NES, the Genesis, et al. and until it was mentioned, I forgot about it...the mind's defense mechanism)...
I think there have been some great games in the last decade...Resident Evil 4 on the Gamecube may be one of my fondest gaming memories ever...I even played through it multiple times so I could play the game with the unlimited rocket launcher (and I believe that game is a good example of what we call 'linear')...God of War on the PS2 was worth my time...I loved single-player Ratchet and Clank on the PS2...Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, Force Unleashed, Crackdown 2 (nothing quite like jumping from building to building during an Orb race) and Dead Rising 2 (couple of sequels there) were fun on the 360...Band Hero on the 360 remains one of the ultimate party games with my extended family...and this holiday season, we all laughed at each other playing Dance Central with the Kinect...
Not sure if I've really enjoyed anything on the PC since Mass Effect, Batman: Arkham Asylum and Prince of Persia and none of those were exclusive to the PC (much cheaper thanks to Steam though)...but my big laptop is getting long in the tooth and I won't be replacing it any time soon (anyone have a spare mobile 7950 GTX for when the inevitable occurs?)...
Having acknowledged all that, I still think something is missing for me...I just have the feeling that, for a lot of games, the development focus was on graphics, physics, and/or cutscenes...I can't substantiate that, and maybe it's due to masterchef341's hindsight bias...the point could be argued indefinitely (and has been argued already on a few different threads in this forum)...
There's a film analogy (and I hate analogies so I have to be desperate to use this) that was already mentioned in this thread...the original Star Wars trilogy vs the prequel trilogy...the prequel trilogy had a two decade technology advantage at its disposal and well recognized and established actors...the available budget had to be huge compared to the original...but I think most people would agree that the prequel struggled compared to the original...and I don't think it's nostalgia either or unmet expectations...my 9-year old prefers the original trilogy to the new one (other than the battle at the end of Episode II) and he had no expectations of either set...but the analogy doesn't necessarily extrapolate to the gaming industry...(and the film industry's return to the Karate Kid worked, Inception was an amazing movie, etc)...
I just think that 25 years ago the development focus had to be in other areas than graphics or physics because processing power was very limited...graphics were more about a carefully chosen style that the 'engine' could accommodate than any type of dream of photorealism with multiple light sources...
Games are a lot more complex now than they were (discounting the hardcore flight simulator genre that has been discussed...anyone play Microprose's F-15 Strike Eagle or Microprose's F-19 Stealth Fighter?)...my 2600 and C64 primary input devices had an 8-position joystick (digital if you want to consider four contacts in orthogonal directions as digital...off/on...you were either moving to the top-right or you weren't) and one button...the NES doubled the buttons (quadrupled if you count start and select)...Genesis added one more, and then came out with the X, Y, Z pads for fighting games...now my 360 has two analog sticks, a d-pad, four face buttons, two bumpers, two analog triggers, a start button, a back button, and a guide button...it even vibrates and I can plug my headphones into it...the game that I'm currently playing on the 360, Joe Danger, is a modern version of Excitebike and uses everyone of those buttons and both analog sticks...
Some of the complex games are fun...some not so much...
For me, what settles the argument in the end, is the seeming lack of space sims (including mech sims)...between Star Wars, Wing Commander, Freespace, Mechwarrior, Privateer, Bridge Commander, Independence War, etc, there were a lot of high quality titles available in the genre...now, other than EVE (I don't do MMOs so I have no idea how well done it is), I have X on the PC or one level on Halo: Reach for the 360...
Mitlov, please give me the list of what I've missed...Darkstar didn't quite cut it for me, but I did buy it from Steam...maybe, the real problem is that there was nothing left to do in the genre after Freespace 2, and developers respected the genre too much to simply give it periodic facelifts a la Madden...
Actually, my XPS can emulate everything up to a PS2/Gamecube with a lot more options than the original hardware, and I have all my old DOS games installed on the laptop running under DOSBox (and as you suggested, that's why I will NOT be purchasing a new PC anytime soon...I have too much retro gaming all running well on my current laptop)...in fact, you're just as likely to find me playing Master of Orion under DOSBox or Raid on Bungeling Bay on CCS64 as upstairs in the bonus room playing Call of Duty: Black Ops on the 360...and Mappy on mame is more addicting than Angry Birds for me...d*mn that red cat in the tuxedo... -
Another great old space sim was StarLancer. However, the space sim genre is dead as a doornail right now. Realistic flight sims are experiencing a renaissance right now, but good space sims, as you note, basically haven't existed since Freespace 2 (1999), and good mech sims haven't existed since Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries (2002). Freelancer (2003) was the most recent space sim I can think of, and it was pretty underwhelming, due in part to a mouse-and-keyboard-only control scheme.
A Mechwarrior reboot is in the works, but it's too early to know if it'll be any good. Space sims? Haven't even heard of anything in the works. It's sad.
EDIT: I just remembered that there's apparently a new Star Trek game in the works, but while I've seen a lot of models of different ships, I haven't heard as much discussion of what gameplay will be like. Too early to tell, I guess. -
I would donate 50 dollars to microsoft (in addition to the game itself) just to see a Freelancer 2 project at hand...
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Thanks for chiming in IWantMyMTV - always respect (and usually agree) with your opinion. You're an old school gamer like me, maybe more hard core since I don't dabble with DOSbox stuff too much any more.
A lot of what you say is definitely true. The great advancement of 3D graphics has helped gaming in so many ways. But seems as of late (last 5 years or so) it has started to hinder it because it's all about graphics graphics graphics. I hate to see what the next generation of consoles will do because it will be all about the new graphics.
I miss Mech games too. That seems like a genre that would be quite popular. I believe there was a MechWarrior trailer for a reboot game that showed Mechs size of skyscrapers dueling it out in a city. But I think that was scrapped due to IP infringement or some such. There's a MechWarrior mod for Crysis, and MechWarrior Online due out soon too I believe.
If you want space based 4x games, check out starwraith games: Space-sims for the PC, Combat / Trader Simulations, Free Demo Downloads - StarWraith 3D Games
It's kind of an indie developer but did a great job with the games.
Edit: Oh yeah, MechWarrior seems it's now MechWarrior Online coming out Summer 2012. I might bite if it's as good as this trailer shows.
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a little bit off topic but the beauty of emulators today is you can now have a savepoint
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During the stone ages it was possible to dump memory on a Sinclair/ZX80 with a "magic button". It saved memory into a file on a floppy and then you'd load it and continue playing from the moment you dumped it.
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i think anything we experience during those 'wonder years' will always hold feelings of nostalgia and fascination.
its the same reason why music we listened to when we were growing up sounds better than the modern stuff.
it is also the same reason our kids will be looking back at skyrim, red dead, l4d, me, mw, bf, etc as the golden age of gaming when theyre our age.
and thanks for the great article assaultsuit:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/8205052-post38.html -
i dont think u can compare music to gaming
its like comparing this, its a crime Time - Pink Floyd - YouTube
to this CJ Fam - Ordinary Pop Star (Official Video) - YouTube
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Just tried Rise of Flight. It is AMAZING. I encourage any flight sim fans here who haven't tried it to pick it up, now. There's a free demo to make sure you like it and make sure it runs on your machine, and then you can either buy the whole game, or you can pick up campaigns, aircraft piecemeal for $5 here, $5 there. I'm going to get the whole game.
And yeah, it really does look this good. The video below is with max detail. Even with lowered detail settings to ensure high framerates (with just a 540M), it looks nearly this good. You don't need a high-end desktop to run this.
Rise Of Flight - Battles Of War (part2) Rated - YouTube -
I dunno. WWI doesn't interest me as much as WWII or modern aircraft. Actually Wings of Prey is pretty nice. Actually made me pull out my Saitek X52 and do some flying with it. Want my CH setup but just not set up for that at the moment.
Although it's not really a DEMO, it's a full version, just only get a couple planes then can buy up additional aircraft if desired. -
I have to add in my 2 cents here. The 2 biggest things that annoy my about newer games:
1) the "value-added" crap. Buy from here and you get this! Buy from there and you get that! This goes hand in hand with forcing always on connections, and having to use their servers to host multiplayer games. It's all about marketing more crap to you, not improving the gameplay exprience.
2) The abandonment of GOOD writing and storylines for FPS games that provide hours of gameplay. I understand most people get it for the multi-player, but you couldn't come up with ANYTHING better for single player? It's like single player campaigns are just to practice now, and you're only really getting half a game.
That's all
Does afterburner count as a flight sim? I don't think so.
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Great points MAA83 and I agree wholeheartedly. As much as I like the online Battlefield games, every other game I play I do primarily for the single player experience. I don't think anyone can say that this has not changed for the worse.
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Fair enough; it's all subjective. I like WWI because it's such a simple, distilled experience. It's just you and a lightweight, rickety craft and the laws of physics. Dogfighting techniques and energy conservation is all there is. No fancy engine management, no targeting computers, nothing.
Personally, my order of favorites:
WWII > WWI > sci-fi space sim > modern combat flight sim.
The other nice thing I'll say about WWI is that it's so morally clean. It was the last major war where battles took place on designated battlefields instead of overlapping into urban areas with massive civilian casualties. For example, in a WWII sim, a "bomber escort" mission often involves carpet-bombing of industrial targets in the middle of a city, and historically, that resulted in tens of thousands of noncombatant casualties. -
Love this game, but get the iron cross edition instead.
Rof and wings of prey are the best sims ive tried in years.
Sent from my samsung galaxy s2 using tapatalk -
Yeah, I got the Iron Cross edition for something like $37 on Amazon. Glad to financially support a company that makes such a good game AND publishes a large-scale free demo so I could ensure it ran well on my system before buying it.
EDIT: Albatros D.Va über alles. -
Yes, WWI can be fun. I had a blast with Red Baron back in the day. I may give this a go, essentially since it's free. WWI is definitely a different class. Slower, close proximity battles, and more personal (usually could see the enemy in the cockpit). WWII though, the aircraft didn't have all the avionics of modern warfare but all the firepower. Required true skill across all fronts of the war. WWI they would frequently have a "co-pilot/bomber" literally hand drop bombs out of the cockpit. The gun chain linked to the propeller to ensure proper timing so you wouldn't blow off your own propeller (although that did happen). Plus the wooden fuselage frequently was a bonus because bullets would just blow all the way through it instead of blowing up inside it.
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Just because you had less firepower than in WWII didn't mean you needed less skill than in WWII. Dogfighting is no less challenging--it's still the same game of maneuvering and energy management. You're slower and more maneuverable, but so is your opponent. As for gunnery, with a FW-190 (edit: NBR's automatic footnoting fails...the FW-190 is not a Sony laptop, LOL), if you hit ANYWHERE on the opponent, your massive stream of explosive shells will basically blow the other fighter to smithereens. In WWI, though, you needed to be sure of where you were hitting your target, not just on large bombers but even on fighters. Unless you hit a wooden spar or a control cable or you emptied your guns to shred the fabric surface, hitting the wing wouldn't do much good. You really need to target the engine or the pilot to get a convincing kill on a fighter.
That's the ultra-early war, when they hadn't yet figured out how air combat would work. They'd chuck things at each other or fire small arms. No WWI flight sim, including RoF, recreates this period. This period ended with the Fokker Scourge (the dominance of the Fokker Eindecker in the early war).
Warning: history rambling begins now.
The Fokker Eindecker was a generally primitive monoplane; it didn't even have ailerons (instead, its entire wings flexed when the pilot wanted to bank). But it was the first aircraft with a synchronized machine gun, and the period where it was the only game in town with an effective armament system was called "the Fokker Scourge" for a reason. The allies initially responded with pusher-propeller biplanes like the Airco DH.2; you didn't need gun synchronization with a pusher propeller. The early period where pilots just threw stuff at each other isn't included in RoF or any other WWI flight sim I know; the Allied challenge to the Fokker Scourge is generally the earliest stage of WWI flight sims. RoF begins even later, unless you purchase the Eindecker and the DH.2 (which are both AI-only unless they're purchased for an additional sum).* The first flyable Central Powers aircraft is the Albatros DV.a, which debuted in 1917. The Allied campaigns begin earlier, but still after the end of the Fokker Scourge.
RoF really focuses on the mid-to-late war, primarily 1917-1918, when most of the really famous and highly capable aircraft of the war were deployed (including the Spad 13, Sopwith Camel, and SE5a for the Allies and the Albatros D.Va, Fokker DR1 triplane, and Fokker D.VII for the Central Powers). By this time, combat was far, far advanced from the start-of-war anarchy of scout planes's crews throwing grenades and shooting revolvers at other planes.
*ROF Iron Cross Edition features about 8 flyable designs and dozens of AI-only aircraft. A couple dozen of these AI designs can be made flyable, with truly lavishly-rendered cockpits and unique handling characteristics, but each needs to be purchased individually. And new designs are being continually released. While this may seem like nickel-and-diming compared to Oleg Maddox's habit of releasing free new aircraft with every patch, I find that you get what you pay for...the game is far less buggy than 1C Maddox productions, and the attention to detail is higher. -
I didn't say it didn't require skill, I just said WWII pilots typically required skill across all aspects, and defined new roles for aircraft in war. Typically used just for air-to-air combat, with occasional bombing or strafing of targets in WWI, this changed drastically in WWII. Aircraft were much larger, tens of times more powerful, used for air-to-air, precision strikes against stationary AND moving ground targets, and as a general support role.
WWI pilots were crazy IMHO. They were flying wooden crates with guns with no parachutes. The aircraft require finesse control to prevent exceeding their limits within the small flight envelope, and didn't have the safety factors designed into aircraft that came in during WWII. -
I agree...sort of. Comparing a WWI survey sim to a WWII survey sim, there's a LOT more variety in the latter. You use machine guns, cannons, rockets, and bombs. You attack level bombers, fighters, dive-bombers, torpedo-bombers, tanks, bunkers, and ships. You dive bomb, you level bomb, you torpedo, you fire rockets. You take off from aircraft carriers as well as runways. Whereas in a WWI flight sim, you do reconnaissance interception, reconnaissance defense, balloon busting, balloon defense, bomber interception, bomber defense, supply truck attack, and zeppelin interception. Everything is handled with either one or two 30 caliber machine guns. You always take off from and land in a grass field. The scenery--the muddy moonscape known as the front--never changes. So I think playing a WWII study sim requires a much broader skill set than playing a WWI study sim.
But comparing the career of an individual WWI pilot to an individual WWII pilot, there's often a similarly-narrow focus. If you're a Buffalo pilot for the Finnish Air Force, you probably did nothing but IL-2 and PE-2 interception. If you were a P-51 pilot in the late war, you probably did just level bomber escort. If you were an SBD Dauntless pilot, you probably never did anything but dive-bomb ships and coastal targets. If you were a Hawker Hurricane pilot during the Battle of Britain, you probably just did bomber interception (and fighting off the fighter escorts). There were some pilots who did a lot of multi-role stuff--P-47, Corsair, FW-190--but there were a lot who only did two or three sorts of missions, just like WWI pilots, who did nothing but attack fighters, bombers, and dirigibles.
Not nearly as crazy as kamikazes
But yeah, not having a parachute brings a real sense of desperation to dogfights. And one of the challenges of a WWI flight sim is that the envelope you operate in is so small. There's only about 100 mph that separates "stalling and falling out of the sky" and "wings tearing off from going too fast." Airframe failure is an ever-present risk, not something that only an idiot brings upon themselves (like in a WWII sim). It gives a very different feel to energy management in a dogfight.
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Whatever. My grandfather was a Navy pilot between WWI and WWII and flew WWI vintage aircraft. Two of my step uncles flew Mustangs in WWII. I got some interesting stories from them before they passed away. In any case it takes lots of guts to be a military pilot even in today's complex aircraft.
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I don't disagree with anything you've said here. Not sure if you think I do?
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damn it I had those guts, but I had eyeglasses at the same time
my family also had a lot of pilots!
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Created a thread dedicated to Rise of Flight as we're pretty far from the original post right now:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/gam...637454-anyone-else-here-play-rise-flight.html -
You know what? I didn't join the Air Force because my eyes were bad too and at the time there was no decent corrective surgery. Now with laser surgery I could have joined up. But they basically dashed my dreams and said I couldn't fly because of my vision. That's why I ended up getting my private pilot's license, but just isn't the same. Although I do miss it.
old VS new games why new games suck
Discussion in 'Gaming (Software and Graphics Cards)' started by MSIfanboy, Jan 1, 2012.