P6860 FX BGA reballing

Okay, so it looks like the curse has struck my 6860. I think I'm going to try the heat gun/hair dryer solution mentioned here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/gat...60fx-died-no-support-gateway.html#post5501933

And using the disassembly guide here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/gat...embly-guide-covers-all-17in-fx-notebooks.html

So, firstly, does anyone have any suggestions other than doing this rather scary and time-consuming project? I think my warranty's expired, and from what I've been reading, Gateway's customer service isn't worth trying. The symptoms are blank screen on start up with everything else working (can sort of blindly use Windows and get predictable results suggesting everything's working), and also BEEEEEEEP-beep-beep during POST.

Secondly, does anyone have tips beyond the threads I linked above?

And the first post I linked to suggests using a hairdryer for three minutes. Does a hairdryer actually get that hot? I also need to know what kind of temperature sensor I need to not crack the chip.

So, in order:

1. Other suggestions?
2. Tips?
3. Hairdryer?
4. Temperature sensor?

Thanks for any help you can give. Maybe this can become a reference thread.

 

Heating the board with a hair dryer is not a good solution at all. A heat gun would be better but odds are it will not hold and you will find yourself doing the same thing over and over until the solder no longer holds. It may last around 3 months the first time around but the lifespan of the fix will likely get shorter from there. This is NOT a BGA reball, it is a reflow. If you can find a stencil for your GPU then you probably could pay someone to reball your GPU like someone has recently in another thread. (though they've yet to post if they were successful or not) If you did get it reballed, with good solder, it should be permanent or at least last longer than it did before it broke last time. At least in theory.

 

Thanks. Title fixed!

I did see the other thread. Would the amount of time the fix lasts depend on the temperature the chip operates at? That is, would investing in cooling help enough to be worthwhile?

 

While I've heard the temperature of the chip does often effect the time that a reflow will last, I can't confirm that it would make a huge difference either way. Most decent 17" coolers probably come with a pretty high price tag. Though I would get some ICD7/OCZ freeze for thermal paste. Best way to keep these laptops cool is the cheapest, just some elevation. Raise the laptop half an inch and it will do wonders, there is not nearly enough room underneath the Gateway FX models for good ventilation. Also of course be sure to check for any dust in the fans/vents while you have it taken apart too. If my solder broke though I would try for a reball, but that's just me.

 

Yes, I do raise the thing already.

Do you know what kinds of people I need to find to do a reball? I'm assuming the neighbourhood PC shop won't have the equipment? I'll keep an eye on the other thread to see if the stencil works.

 

Just a guess but I doubt anyone local would do it considering the equipment needed to do so. You may be able to find a business online willing to reball it though, I'd guess that's what the person in the other thread did. Odds are they have the wrong stencil though, I think they got the stencil for the desktop version that the 8800M GTS was based off of (the 8800 GS). I suppose it COULD work though. Supposing you have the correct stencil I think you may be able to get a kit to do it yourself. I have yet to have to reball something myself, but I may be reballing an old PS3 here shortly. I'd like the experience in case I have to do it again. Besides that I'm a student of computer science. =P

 

I did find this website, in case anyone's interested: cardoneventures.com

They look rather sophisticated and probably won't be cheap, but I'll call them in the morning.

 

On another note, the Youtube videos about a similar issue with HP laptops suggest thermal compound and a piece of copper for better contact with heatsink. Does anyone know if this might help, in conjunction with the reflow?

Also, the HP people have apparently a class-action lawsuit going. There doesn't seem to be a similar one for Gateways; does anyone know differently?

 

This is the best thread I've seen regarding the copper mod.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/del...m1330-nvidia-geforce-8400m-gs-copper-mod.html

You can probably find the piece of copper you need, or at least a sheet on ebay. It is meant to replace the thermal pad that is originally put on the heatsink because it will transfer heat faster. I personally decided to use ICD thermal compound to fill the gap that the thermal pad leaves behind on both the NB and GPU. The thermal pad on the heatsink isn't much of a pad as a... puddy? Which stayed intact on my NB, but the pad on the GPU was like... melted? I'd say the easier route would be to get a tube of ICD in this case. Also if you get a quote on that site please be sure to post it. =P

 

Ah, cheers. That is a good guide.

Would you recommend using ICD over the copper? Part of the idea of using a piece of copper seems to have been to make a tighter fit in the whole assembly and so exert more pressure between chip and motherboard for better contact. Perhaps that's slightly bogus?

The ICD seems to come in 1.5 g and 4.8 g tubes, how much would it need? I still have some AS 5 left over from a CPU upgrade, would that be significantly less effective?

 

Most people prefer ICD because it is thick and apparently lasts longer. I personally would says it's better than AS5. It seems to be about equal with OCZ Freeze as far as performance. I used the 4.8g tube when I applied it to my notebook but I applied it to the NB, GPU, GPU memory chips and CPU. I used about a quarter of the tube which means the 1.5g tube may be enough but it may be better to be safe with the 4.8g. The copper may indeed apply more pressure but I haven't done it myself. You'll want to find the right size shim if you do use copper though, which I'm not exactly sure what size that would be.

 

Alright, so I think the plan is now to find a thinner piece of copper than strictly optimal, so it might have some effect without going overboard.

I'll be gathering materials tomorrow/calling people, and I'll be back to report.

 

In the Everex XT5000t thread over on Hardforums (bad failure rates on the XT5000T & XT5300T also) one of the guys used this company Laptops - Arndt Computer Services - Computer house calls in Belleville, Illinois; laptop LCD backlight repair
Price was not cheap though approx 200 and took about 3 weeks total by the time he sent it off and received it back.

 

So I just called ASG (cardoneventures.com), and was told that they are not a "consumer service".

 

I wouldn't spend any money at all on 're-balling', especially if you don't know wether or not the GPU is problematic. There are a number of us that have had success putting the mobo in the oven. I'd try that first.

 

Yes, I'm going to try the heating method.

I bought a heating lamp today. Initially, I was skeptical that it would reach anywhere near the required temperatures ("It's a light bulb!"), but a test with an oven thermometer showed that it can reach 100 degrees C in a minute, and this with a slightly shiny thermometer. So I'm thinking this video ( YouTube - HP tx1000 no boot / black screen / motherboard repair ) might work.

I'm slightly concerned that they put the motherboard upside down while heating, thinking it might cause the chip to just fall off, but that's just paranoia, right?

I have also found a 1982 penny which might be used as a shim. Has anyone had success with this method for these FX models?

 

I'm surprised that what he did worked. Solder doesn't reflow until about 365-385 deg f. Most of us used oven temps in the 385-400 range and left the board in for 8-10 min's. At the temps we used, I wouldn't recommend turning the GPU upside down.

As for using a penny as a shim, I wouldn't recommend doing that either as it shouldn't be needed. Actually I think it would make things worse. The irregularities on the surface of the penny could allow for air bubbles to form that would degrade the performance of the thermal compound. Furthermore, the penny would be additional insulation between the surface of the chip and the copper sink which actually dissipates the heat. I also don't think the heatsink design of the 6860fx would accomodate a shim very well, I think it would exert too much pressure on the GPU.

 

I would not recommend reflowing the BGA upside down as this will defeat the purpose. You want the solder balls to reflow (melt) and the part to collapse and make a good solid connection to the board and package. If you reflow upside down it will probably not fall off due to the surface tension of the solder but the balls will elongate or may cause opens if the solder is not touching both board and package. Just remember everything is going to reflow if you put it in an oven. There may be some plastic parts that melt.

 

Okay, so no doing it upside down and no penny. I think the idea behind the heat lamp with aluminium shield is to prevent plastic parts melting. 385F is about 200 deg C, which I believe a heat lamp can reach comfortably.

ICD should be here tomorrow. In the meantime, thanks all for the input!

 

hi.i can tell you that a hair dryer does not work it does not produce enough heat,i would also advise against using a heat gun that is used for paint striping,you have no control over the precise temperature that is needed to reflow the bga,if you really want to reflow the ic take a look on ebay for a portable hot air reflow system,these can be picked up for about £50,they come usually with about 4 attachments that have very small nozzles that concentrate the precise heat to were you want it.or you can get a nozzle that is the correct diameter of your gpu ic,reflowing is only a low grade fix it will fail again,there are many videos on utube that show you how to bodge u gpu,and they are bodges that will fail again.
the correct way to fix this problem is to reball the gpu,this is not easy to do unless you have the correct equipment,type into ebay "bga reballing equipment"everything you need is there,somebody suggested geting a stencil it takes more than a stencil to fix this problem.
i started a buissness 2 months ago buying laptops that have this problem with the gpu ic,i reball the gpu or southbridge ic (acer 5100 fault) and then resell these laptops,i have repaired 26 so far and none have failed,check on ebay all the equipments there if cost is a issue try what i have done and repair other laptops to get your money back or resell equipment back on ebay,i hope i may have helped you without getting to technical..

 

hi.i can tell you that a hair dryer does not work it does not produce enough heat,i would also advise against using a heat gun that is used for paint striping,you have no control over the precise temperature that is needed to reflow the bga,if you really want to reflow the ic take a look on ebay for a portable hot air reflow system,these can be picked up for about £50,they come usually with about 4 attachments that have very small nozzles that concentrate the precise heat to were you want it.or you can get a nozzle that is the correct diameter of your gpu ic,reflowing is only a low grade fix it will fail again,there are many videos on utube that show you how to bodge u gpu,and they are bodges that will fail again.
the correct way to fix this problem is to reball the gpu,this is not easy to do unless you have the correct equipment,type into ebay "bga reballing equipment"everything you need is there,somebody suggested geting a stencil it takes more than a stencil to fix this problem.
i started a buissness 2 months ago buying laptops that have this problem with the gpu ic,i reball the gpu or southbridge ic (acer 5100 fault) and then resell these laptops,i have repaired 26 so far and none have failed,check on ebay all the equipments there if cost is a issue try what i have done and repair other laptops to get your money back or resell equipment back on ebay,i hope i may have helped you without getting to technical..

 

this may help you if you do try any method,get yourself some good liquid flux and squirt a small amount under the gpu ic,make sure you do this all the way around the chip,tip the board to make sure it runs all under the chip,this is were most people go wrong they dont use any flux,it is needed to help the solder balls to reflow,a infra red thermometer will give you a precise chip temperature,i use 230 celcuis for gpu`s,if you do use a heat gun that you can not control the airflow rate make sure you dont blow air under the chip,this will move the solder balls when they reflow and you will have a nackered chip that will have to be reballed.
the flux will smoke when it gets hot but dont panic when that happens,its normal,one other thing i do when i have reball the chipsis to use specialist adhesive and put it on the corners of the chip this helps anchor the chip to the board,do not put all around the chip this will create excess heat build up,take a look at a dell laptop gpu attached to the board and you will see they have use glue on the corners to help bond it to the board...

 

Ah, thanks for the tips mgc.

I actually did the fix today. Took practically all day to disassemble, burn, clean, and put back together, but everything seems to be working now. The problem seems to have been a massive (MASSIVE) buildup of a slightly sticky dust/furball kind of thing on the GPU heat sink fins which was more or less completely blocking airflow. Previous Furmark tests would run to ~100 deg C, whereas after cleaning (and ICD), max temp is down to 75 deg C. Is there hope that the decrease in temperature would help the fix last?

I debated whether to cover the core of the GPU (the shiny part) with foil, since, presumably, it's the sides which need to be heated, but decided against it, thinking even heating is probably better than creating a gradient which might crack or otherwise behave unpredictably. I also considered heating from the bottom side (i.e., with the motherboard still upright, hanging off the edge of the desk with lamp facing up), but didn't ending up doing that for no particular reason. (Thoughts?)

For reference: two and a half minutes of a 250W lamp at ~1 inch did the trick.