Raid on the P-7811

I decided to start a new thread since the discussions of raid were scattered through a few threads here and there:

vengeance_01 seems to have solved the issue of whether or not we can raid:

My question is, what stripe size would be optimal for two 200gb hard drives, for the purposes of moderate to high gaming?

 

I do not have the option for raid under advanced. The owners manual said something about raid if you have a certain chipset, or am I missing something?

 

i recommend the default stripe size.

 

I second the default.

 

The default is 256kb I believe. I read somewhere (and this would logically seem true) that the stripe size is, among other things, the minimum write size for a file. What this means that if you have a 1kb file, the drive allocates 256kb to that single file, meaning that 1kb file now takes up 256kb. A 24kb word file will take up 256kb.

The source did not say this, but I would assume this also means that a 257kb file will take up 512kb. EDIT: thinking about this more, I don't think this part could be true...

So as hard drives read larger files faster, a larger stripe size would mean better performance from raid, but the larger the stripe size, the more space is wasted, so it's a tradeoff.

I'll try to find the source of this information, but someone please tell me I'm wrong, because this would totally suck. I might end up setting the stripe size to 4kb.

 

128kb is considered a good "middle of the road" stripe size and one even a lot of servers use. The lower you set the stripe size the more performance hit the array takes when writing larger files. It could even degrade performance to lower than that of a singe hard drive. Example:

" If you set your stripe to 4kb and write a 16,000kb file, the file gets broken into 4,000 chunks of 4kb. Writing 4,000 chunks to the drives, 2 at a time, will actually cause a decrease in performance."

I've created and tested hundreds of arrays as well as run tests on every available stripe size and find 128kb to be a great default with 256kb following very closely.

 

here ya go

 

Ok, for those who don't want to read all the info thus far, I read through the source posted by diablo85 and have concluded to go with the default raid size of 256kb, which is also what Gateway recommends for their gaming laptops.

you probably read that you need ICH9M Enhanced southbridge rather than just the ICH9M southbridge. The 7811 has the enhanced version, so the chipset isn't your problem. Are you sure you're following the steps proposed in vengeance's post? Also, what hard drives/sizes are you using?

 

Unless I am missing something thats just the owners manual and when I goto my advanced tab in the bio and choose sata there is no raid option? I would love to get it seteup if someone can clue me what I am doing wrong. I bought a second seagate drive that is the twin of the drive already in it.

 

check in the quiet boot field to see if it says enable or disabled

 

it was enabled, I selected disable, I still see no option for raid

 

I have done a clean install of vista, maybe there is some software I missed on the install?

 

k so that sounds right so far...

now when u exited bios, the laptop should restart. let it load up the ram, DO NOT enter bios, after it loads up the ram, the next screen should be the "press control+i" for raid menu...

does that screen show up?

 

I have yet to see the option for raid under the advanced sata tap, the only choices are ide and ahci or something like that. When it boots now i see the memory check etc after the disabling the quite boot. The only choices I still see though are bios and boot menu, neither of which have any options I see for raid.

 

My bios version is 9c.05.00 I am thinking I either do not have something installed or there is a setting I have yet to find. I have read the owners manual and it seems that enabling the raid is pretty straight foward, but I do not see the option where they say it should be.

 

enable quiet boot, let it load up ram, do not press F2/F10 bios/boot menu, the next screen should be raid config "press ctrl+i"

u don't enter bios, u get a new screen to enter raid. let me know if that screen appears

 

Enabling quite boot was the default like the machine was to start with. So on reboot not selecting bio or boot up, I get a gateway screen, then the microsoft screen and then log on. No where at no time have I seen raid anything in boot up or bios. If I disable the quite boot then I see it loading the ram etc but still no raid options. The manual says there should be an option under that sata in advanced, I have ide and achi, nothing else.

 

This sounds like Gateway left the RAID option out of the initial BIOS. I don't believe you can get to the CTRL+I RAID configuration screen unless you have set RAID for the SATA mode in the BIOS. If this option isn't there, then you won't get any RAID support or configuration options prior to booting.

One last thing to try is running the Intel Matrix Storage console once you boot in Vista. It gives some useful data even for a single drive on my system. It should identify all your hard drives. Check to see if it will allow you to configure a RAID set up. If not, we will need to push Gateway to update the BIOS.

Good luck,
Ira

 

i never got the ctrl + i raid configuration screen till i set raid in the bios....

 

Sounds like I need a bios update then my bios doesnt have a raid option and the matrix manager has no raid options or info either. Can someone that has gotten the raid to work please let me know what bios version you have?

 

I also have no option for enabling RAID in the BIOS that shipped with the unit. Nor is there any updates available from Gateway as of now (nor drivers if you've failed to create a backup DVD).

A few people have supposedly got it working, and if thats the case would you be so kind as to shed some light on the topic?

 

I don't think anyone has gotten raid working on the 7811 yet. I think the folks who have discussed how to set up raid were speaking from their experience with the 6xxx models.

We are all working from the same initial release BIOS. If multiple people cannot get the raid option to work in BIOS then either it is not there, or there are some hard drives that don't work fully with the current BIOS. My vote is that Gateway did not implement the raid function. Perhaps we will get it in a later update.

Ira

 

vengeance_01 has it working. I think one or two others (I saw P-7811fx blah blah raid-0 in some people's signatures, forgot who)

 

I thought maybe the BIOS wasn't recognizing my disks due to them never having their partition schemes restored from Raid on my previous 6860, so I zeroed them out and reinitialized to no avail. I even tried GPT. I'm in the process of dumping the BIOS and analyzing the binary for any signs of chipset raid. Hopefully it is simply disabled.

 

I have no idea who plazmic is ... but I like him already.

That tech talk is like blowing in my ear ... makes the hair on my arms sand up.

 

that must irritate the hell out of your arms.

 

Sorry for the n00b question, but does changing your HDD to Raid 0 increases the speed only or does it change something else in it's performance? Or I got it all wrong?

 

You need 2 identical or close to identical harddrives to enable raid and when you install stuff ie games , OS etc they work in tandem so they split the load for the most part and give you a nice boost when it comes to loading things and overall disk access .

 

However, in the interest of full disclosure, RAID 0 also makes your system twice as vulnerable to hard disk failures. If either of the two drives in the RAID 0 array fails, all data is lost because the other drive only has 1/2 the data and you cannot recover your files. Thus, RAID 0 is useful for storing your programs that you load often since you can just re-install them after a disk crash. But, RAID 0 is a bad idea for storing your critical data, especially if you are not highly disciplined about regular backups.

On the other hand, RAID 1 is just the opposite. It mirrors all the data on both disks in the array. In RAID 1, a single disk failure does not compromise any data. However, RAID 1 gives not speed increase, it just protects your data by storing in on 2 disks rather than 1.

Unfortunately, until we figure out how to activate the RAID setting in BIOS, these are both just theoretical possibilities ;-)

Ira

 

I've confirmed that the instructions posted here for enabling raid do not work for the P-7811. I went into bios, switched quiet boot to "disabled", and then saved and exited. There was no screen on the next boot to allow me to set raid options. I tried pressing "ctrl i" and it didnt do anything. I've searched all options in bios and none allow for raid. I called tech support, the first time I had to repeat what I was asking for, the guy didn't know what raid-0 was and tried to pretend that he did, eventually leading to him hanging up on me while I was describing it (the truth). I called again and a different person said "if it didn't come with raid, we can't help you." They gave me the number for Gateway fee-based tech support, which charges $1.44 to $2.25 per minute, I didn't bother.

Vengeance_01, you said you confirmed that raid is an option, but do you have actually have a P-7811 or did you confirm this on the P-68**. We're talking about the P-7811 here, has anyone actually set up raid on this computer?

 

No, there is currently no RAID support on the 7811FX outside of software RAID, which is essentially what these pseudo raid controllers are anyways. I dumped ROM and searched for any reference to a Raid Controller and found nothing. However, the ICH9M-E chipset is Raid0/1 enabled -- Intel confirms that. It just currently isn't, and may never be a function 7811FX users get to see supported by Gateway.

 

Thats some weak sauce that the previous gen does and they removed it. Im sure alot of people are buying these on the assumption that raid is part of the package .

 

This is a brand new chipset, there will be numerous changes / bugfixes in the future. It could just be that Gateway has not found the time to release the RAID functionality due to quality control (From Gateway )

 

How has Gateway performed on like issues in the past? Are they willing to hammer out BIOS revisions until they get things right or do they make some weak effort and call it quits?

 

simply put...i dont believe there has been a BIOS update for the 6860's....so i wouldnt count on getting one for the 7811's.

 

Agreed. Although I could be wrong, as this could simply be a slip-up on Gateways part and not intentional, I still find it unlikely.

 

Darn, this is not good news. I seriously cannot abide BIOS abandonment. No company gets it right out of the shoot. I smelled a rat when I saw what they were using for audio. Driver information on audio is AWOL ATM.

Do the 6860's have the same audio?

PS: Dook, if I were not so serious, I would find you latest avatar humorus.

 

Hopefully plazmic is right and they will release a bios to support it . One way probably to find out if something like this has ever been done before by gateway would be to look at older models of anything they sell and see what revisions they have released . Im not sure they operate like dell and other companys where they constantly updating stuff bios, drivers etc but hey ya never know.

 

Yea, I'm certainly not trying to rain on parades here. I think it's 100% bullsheet that Gateway would release this model without RAID. It makes no sense whatsoever, as there's another hard drive caddy just asking to be filled, as well as a chipset that fully supports it. Like I said, maybe it's just an "oops, my bad" on Gateways part and they'll release a BIOS patch to fix it. But as far as them just randomly creating BIOS updates, it usually doesnt happen.

 

dook your avatar is priceless!

and im movin on up in the world, i gots me another green dot.

 

They released no updates on the 6831 and 6860 through their website. It's quite possible they had internal updates for their service centers, which would have been given to the Geek Squad centers as well... I'll try to find out if thats the case. On the other hand, the GM965 platform was not debuted with either model. Chipset issues could have been for the most part resolved prior to then. The fact that this was released so recently means it was developed with testing firmware and drivers, heck some of the drivers on the 7811 recovery disc clearly states BETA in its readme

Gateway HAS released BIOS updates, just not for the 6831/6860. All one can do is hope Gateway will make the revisions we wish, and a letter / call / email wouldn't hurt Otherwise, come to the sensibility that RAID0 on a laptop is cool, but foolish and that RAID1 is a horrible backup method on a laptop suspect to impact damage

 

So why does gateway have Intel Matrix Storage Manager preinstalled on the computer (in start menu)? Just to mock us it would seem. The help options in the program say to setup a raid array you can use the program but the option does not exist where they say it should (I guess it for some reason detects that the computer does not support raid?)

 

This could well be a situation where the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. I believe the user's manual or hardware manual for the 7811 does mention RAID support. Thus, it is possible that the Gateway folks writing the manuals and preparing the standard disk image build assume there is RAID support while the folks responsible for the BIOS have left out RAID support without communicating that fact outside their immediate group.

Also, I believe the Matrix Storage Manager is part of the software required to support AHCI mode as well as RAID. Since the 7811 comes preconfigured for AHCI mode, Gateway had to install the Matrix Storage Manager.

Ira

 

I'm just so upset about this. I'm sitting here with my new comp and I just can't bring myself to use it because I feel like somehow we will figure out this raid thing, and then anything I do before then will have to be erased. Pisses me off 10x more that gateway not only does not know the reason that they removed it, they don't even know what it is...

 

What do you think we were discussing here?

So doubling your hard drive space, while speeding up both write and read times considerably, is foolish? And I know, I know "But Dook, It's susceptible to damage, if one drive is lost, the whole array is lost", yadda yadda. Look, if you're running a single hard drive and it goes bad, don't you loose your data there too? It's all relative. You're taking no more of a risk running RAID 0 then if you were just running a single hard drive, except now you're actually benefiting from such a configuration.

Routine backups are the key on ANY system. Hard Drive manufacturers have made tremendous strides with hard drive reliability, but like with any computing environment, there's always the risk of data loss, probably moreso in a laptop. If you have the option to run RAID, I highly recommend it. The performance gained is worth it, just make sure you routinely run a system backup.

If you DON'T have the option, the world is certainly not going to end. You can still speed up your HD access times by utilizing several tweaks. In other words, don't worry about it, you still have a totally kicka$$ laptop and saved about a grand in the process. That being said, I have a feeling this was just a goof up on Gateways part and it's very possible they will rectify it.

 

Don't misunderstand ... I'm serious about this.

 

It was asked what Gateway's history of BIOS updates was like. I pointed out, what no one else had, that no updates for the 6831/6860 isn't a real indication of the probability of them updating the 7811's.

While I was being facetious (I would run a stripe personally), your logic is wrong. Both drives will each fail, hopefully close to the MTBF. Each will die in its own time from NORMAL usage, but you are effectively doubling the chance of premature death to the array. I agree that manufactures have made huge advances in the reliability of drives, but as the most used mechanical part in a computer, its far more prone to error than any other piece within normal operation. All that aside, you've also introduced a mobile raid array; if you drop your laptop, you will likely destroy both drives if they aren't parked limiting the effectiveness of RAID-1.

 

I tend to agree with you on RAID 1, thus the reason I didn't argue that. And as far as the MTBF argument is concerned, most people either upgrade their hard drives or completely move to another laptop long before the MTBF is reached or exceeded. And lastly moving to premature death due to damage, like you said, if the laptop is dropped or otherwise jarred enough to damage an unparked hard drive, more than likely both drives are going to be damaged. This being said, I have no problem agreeing to disagree on this one, as there is some merit on both sides of the equation.

 

Hard drives are about the only thing I have not had trouble with since 1982. Well if you discount my brief foray with the Hitachi Deathstar fiasco I was suckered into by low price. So I have trouble with some of plazmic's logic, all due respect.

Another thing I have not had trouble with is RAID 0. But I will say I never, ever store data on RAID 0. But yes, in theory one does add another level of potential problem when using RAID.

I may decide not to RAID but it's fair to say that should be my decision, probably my libertarian leanings.

I'm serious about this ... no kidding around.

 

ha awesome, whered u go to make that anyway