x9100 & gaming; P7805

Hi,
Now that I am going to be officially retired I am looking to start gaming. I just DL'd Dirt2 Demo and am thinking of that and F1 2010 which I hear runs similarly for frame rates. I tend to like racing and space sims.

Well ran the demo benchmarks and played demo games, all I can say is wow! 1920x1200 4xAA and benched over 30 FPS minimum @ 3.7 GHz. Playing the two demo races were 100% fluid. I never knew these were this capable and how realistic the graphics can be.

Can anyone recomend good space sim(s) for these machines? I have Dark Star One and may start that one up again..........

 

I just sold my gateway 7805u =( it was an awesome machine!
freespace has some good mods I hear and X3: Reunion is a pretty realistic space sim

 

Yo TAN.. I was wondering if you could tell me how you OC'ed your x9100.. mine is coming in on Friday, and I have the P7805u like you. and what a stable OC might be.

--Thanks man!!

 

ThrottleStop Download ThrottleStop 2.99.3 Free - Performance Adjustment Tool for Core 2 / Core i CPUs - Softpedia

 

Like he said...............

 

Thank you. Cannot wait to upgrade from this wimpy P8400. Got 8 gigs of ram, 120 SSD GSkill (OS) and 500 HDD WD Scorpion (Data)

 

1.) I haven't found the 8GB giving any real difference in performance.

2.) The x9100 is awesome, haven't found it really needs to go bove 3.2 GHz but YMMV

3.) SSD primary and 500 GB secondary is an awesome combo. With SF2 drives set your data folders to the HDD. Also be sure to have Windows 7 for trim support.

I am now using the XT 500GB for secondary drive, other than that we are about the same. I can tell you the system for day to day usage is just a rocket and it seems does pretty well for gaming too.

 

Very nice TANware

 

Yup, everything in my users folder such as my documents,/pictures, videos, downloads etc... is on my HDD, and Win 7 ultimate 64 bit. The 8 GB ram gave me noticeable performance, for example, my friend used to team view me to help me with issues if i had any and it would lag a bit.. not i can play an online game set to max quality and performance, and not even a glitch. but yeah.. 1200$ system that will put alienware to shame on Sunday when i get my x9100 upgrade.. hehe

 

Well I don't know about puting an AW to shame counting on its configuration I guess. I hadn't had 8GB prior to start gaming so I am not sure if it helps there.

I imagine it could as our video cards can share ram too so having more that runs the same speed as stock has got to be somewhat of a boon. Definately can't hurt. Where I used to think these were GPU limited Dirt 2 shows the stock CPU is a limit as well.

Just bumping from 3.2 to 3.7 GHz showed the minimum frame rate bumped up from about 26 to 30 where the avareage only went up slightly. The minimum frame rate is what we care about as when it looks to be jerky and stutter that is when it is happening. Doing the demo races I can feel the difference of the 3.2 and 3.7 GHz I can just imagine how 2.26 GHz would be.........

 

The p-78 79 and 68 with dedicated cards do not share memory with the laptop.
There are very few applications that can utilize all 8gb of ram. Running windows 7 will or any older OS will never use 4gb while gaming.

photo shop might take advantage of 8gbs of ram and video editing with big files might as well.

If ReaperWolf noticed a difference from going to 8gb is from the speed increase of the ram, not the quantity.

 

There is a dedicated amount of video ram but the video card CAN grab system ram too. I believe they call it dynamically allocated shared ram.....................

Edit; if you Game, share resources like media files etc 8GB can be practical. While the system can allocate memory around to run off 4GB with 8GB the OS has to do less memory management freeing the cpu for other tasks etc and creating less lag. So yes I can see where 8GB can be a definate boon. If your tasks are not memory management limited 8GB will do little to nothing for you............

 

In some cases that is true. However the 9800m gts does not, same with the other fx models.
NVIDIA GeForce 9800M GTS - Notebookcheck.net Tech
NVIDIA GeForce 8800M GTS - Notebookcheck.net Tech

True, though memory management doesn't load the cpu enough to really worry about it. It would only be worth changing if you had a particular use for the ram. eg ramdisk.

 

do not believe everything you read.............

memory managemant can create lag, not that it loads up the CPU too much, even minimal lag in gaming is a stutter where normal usage it may never even get noticed.............

 

Thats is how much windows will share with the GPU. The 9800m will not be able to use it.

Even if you could use it, it would be slower than than the dedicated memory and would make the gpu memory run slower.

with the memory management we are talking less than a fps.

 

Ok, the GTS 9800m is the GPU? agreed it would be slower but the card again can use it not that I've seen or at least noticed it ever doing so.

Edit; memory management consists of way more than the card, but internal cache and a myriad of other things. allocation or reallocation can cause lag and lag is a gamers worst enemy...............

 

Windows will allow a Gpu or a Igp to use that much memory, if it is allowed by the card.

The 9800m gts and 8800m gts does not have memory sharing enabled. So it can not use the memory windows is sharing.


Yes, lag is bad.

The CPU does not manage the Gpu's Dedicated video memory.

 

ok in bios gateway enabled it, not sure if in vbios if it is not enabled it would still show this in Win7. It was advertised as such at purchase time and by the link below you will see they notate on the 4GB ram and chasis "4" as memory may be shared by the graphics solution.

Gateway Official Site: Gateway® P-7805u FX Edition

Edit; I highly doubt we have anything that needs to use it but it is there. I know the cpu does not manage dedicated GPU memory just system, cpu cycles are required to move data set pointers and registers etc. but again the OS does alot with it.

If you need hard proof just monitor your memory, if you are seeing alot of hard page faults you are into game stuttering territory if not lagging of other things as well. There is cache area's for destructable objects garbage collection this list is just huge for memory management.............

 

Shared system memory may be allocated to support integrated graphics, depending on system memory size and other factors. Actual system memory available to the operating system will be reduced by the amount of dedicated and/or shared system memory utilized by the graphics solution and resources required by the operating environment.

Note the "integrated graphics" part.

Though the 9800m GTS is soldered onto the p78's main board it isn't considered an IGP

 

This is why the specifically state;

 

That whole statement is just a variable. Its generic they put that on the bottom of multiple laptops with multiple specs. It just says it Might do these things for certain GPU/IGP solutions.

Here is a random laptop link to prove my point. Check 10:
Gateway Official Site: Shop - Netbooks – LT2023u Mini-laptop Product Details

It is in plain english.

Still don't believe me? check other laptops on gateways website.
I've been a computer technician for 5 years and I have personally owned this laptop.



You do not have a Integrated Graphics Processor. You have a Dedicated Processing Unit, That does not have memory sharing enabled.

 

I have been a personal/private tech for over 30 years well before IBM made its first PC. I do own the laptop and there have been many threads toward the begining of the laptops life about the shared memory and people thinking the system was using it when again it is dynamic.

The system was originally advertised as having 1GB dedicated but up to, I think as memory is getting a bit stale, 1736 MB shared. I could be off on the number. now again I will state I've never seen it used, and maybe you have decoded the vbios showing it is disabled where gateway said they enabled it. but until I am shown officially where it doesn't exist or is broken I have to go by manufacturer specs.

Now I will state again I've never seen it in use, I have heard a few posts where Windows in error reserved the memory but never seen it actually in use. Never having seen it used it could be enabled by their vbios but not even usable. unfortunately there is nothing out there to press the memory that much.

And I know it is a dedicated GPU not integrated just show me one place where it says the dynamic memory sharing capability of this card is not enabled!

 

I did in an earlier post. Nvida did not enable those cards with shared memory. So far you have shown 0 proof. The only link you have provided says some cards might have shared memory. That's not proof. Where as I have a reputable Website to back me.

 

The link you have provided does not specifically say there is no shared memory anywhere in it nor does it specifically address the P7805 or Gateway specifically! Why do you feel that something that is right in front of you is not there? Gateway advertised their systems with this enabled. They make the reequired disclaimers. again for alll intents it is supposed to be working.

You need to prove it is not there, I do not need to prove it is. Sorry but if I am told a feature is there and everything points to it being so I have to believe it is until shown otherwise. So show me otherwise or I have to defer to what is in front of me and what the OEM said from the get go.

Trust me if I'm wrong and provided false information I'll be the first to call Gateway, I'm retired and have nothing if not free TIME! Since we do not have dual DVI and only HDMI I can't get a high enough res monitor on here to stress the memory limit enough even if it could be.

What I mean is even if we could I'm not sure unless the 3d engine supports it that it would delve into the shared memory but only normally to the cards dedicated limit. Most likely a feature that will never get utilized but a feature none the less.

There were many a thread even stating why to even bother with 1GB Vram and its benefits. There are only rare circumstances where this is actually true and 99% of the time the extra 512MB limits Vram overclocking so usually the extra ram hinders the gamer.

BOT; 8GB can help out a system albeit not by all that much. The point was being made that with gaming systems even a minimal lag not noticed on a desktop app can affect game play and screen effects.

 

I do not think your lying, I think your mistaken.

Gateway Does not say this model specifically does. They use that text for multiple laptop website links. Now I'm repeating myself. It says some laptop solutions might change, if you can't under stand that then theres really nothing more i can say .

Anyone interested in learning should check my links.

If you would have read my link at all you would have saw this.
Codename NB9E-GT
Pipelines 64 - unified
Core Speed * 600 MHz
Shader Speed * 1500 MHz
Memory Speed * 800 MHz
Memory Bus Width 256 Bit
Memory Type GDDR3
Max. Amount of Memory 1024 MB
Shared Memory no
DirectX DirectX 10, Shader 4.0
Current Consumption 75 Watt
Transistors 504 Million
technology 55 / 65 nm
Features PureVideo HD, HybridPower,
Notebook Size large
Date of Announcement 15.07.2008
Information MXM 3

Note the NO part. If some cards had it enabled that would be yes/no or just yes. but it says no.

Whoever said 1gb of vram was too much vram is from 2004.
several games have use much more than 512mb.
8gbs will not make this system lag enough in games to notice. if you notice a change from 4gb to 8 its because your timings are slower on the 2x4gb chips than the 2x2gb chips. edit mixed the ram up
Heres the link to the website one more time.

NVIDIA GeForce 9800M GTS - Notebookcheck.net Tech

 

That is MXM 3 reference design unfortunately we are not MXM capable, wish we did have that. I am only stating what Gateway originally stated, they had advertised it but of course those are all old ads and now long gone...................

Soldered on chips (non-reference design) may use different bus interface structures, vram configurations, vbios modification for device id, stock clock, features etc etc etc. Even a MXM 3 board has some leway to it.

I prefer over 512MB but it is my preference. I can see games using over this amount but that isn't a need on these, 512MB is more than adaquate I just like bigger despite the lower OC.............

 

There are only 2 types of the 9800m chips. Either a 55nm or a 65nm and both son't support shared memory. The fact that it isn't connect to the laptop via mxm doesn't change the fact that memory sharing isn't built into the chip.

There where only 512mb and 1024mb models. also has nothing to do with shared memory.

vbios has nothing to do with it, if the chip can't use the memory, even if the vbios had it enabled (and its not) , it wouldn't know what do do with the shared ram. the gts 160m is the same card and also doesn't support shared memory.

Windows 7 sets aside shared memory for all video cards. My current 5870m has shared memory disabled, yet windows still has the same amount of memory shared for my card as the 9800m gts.

here is one of the retailers that sold it. No where does it say this.

at TigerDirect.com

and the review from cnet

Gateway P-7805u FX Edition Specs - Laptops - CNET Reviews

 

The second link shows nothing even on dedicated memory size the first link has no add info at all.

The one link I found on the nvidia forums answers the question but not by a company rep. so I have put a ticket in with nVidia concerning the WHQL driver and the 9800m GTS............

But another thread about OpenCL supporting shared memory on the 9800m.

 

the first link is just saying what im saying. windows sets aside memory to be shared with the gpu, the gpu still can't use it.

on the second one the guys says hes not sure.

 

Ok, here is a review of a 9800m SLI showing shared memory capability.

 

The 9700m uses turbocache which was the more popular sli config for that laptop. my guess is toshiba enabled it for the 9700m sli and it just carried over when they made the 9800m gts sli later on.
the 9800m gts still wouldn't be able to use the turbocache.
I searched for turbocache on the 9800m but on all of the lists of technologies for the card it did not show up. the 9700m however does have and use this feature when its enabled.

Edit:
actually i take back what i said about the 9700m i can't find turbo cache on its technology list. Sli might have something to do with it.

Edit:
Ok the 9700m gts & gt with 512mb dedicated memory have turbocache enabled. Looks like the 9800m with 512mb might have it enabled but i can't find any links that says it does. The 1024mb model for both the 9800m and the 9700m which is listed on http://www.notebookcheck.net/ do not have it enabled. They do not have the 512mb models labeled at all.

 

Well i successfully OC'ed it to 3.3 and im happy with that, so imma stay there.. The first time i tried though i was increasing the multiplier and forgot to increase the voltage so it restarted on me.. lol.. but i got it worked out.. Thanks guys!!!!!

 

good deal, I usually use the 3.2 GHz for standard running and 3.45 GHz for gamin is sufficient with Dirt 2............

 

quick question though.. when you set the VID does yours max out at 1.5000 as well?

 

Mine is 1,5 max and 1,0 min

 

With mine 1.5 is a real fast way to overheat.............

 

Is there a way of enabling the turbo cache on the 9800M GTS?

 

nVidia's responce to my email. I included the screen shot below with the email to them too...........

Question

Answer

While notebookcheck lists the reference design it is just that. The OEM controls the vBios and therefore the specific feature set(s). They also usually release vendor specific drivers then controling other features utilized. We have no user control of these except where the (OEM or Generic) drivers alow editing to the registry to control those features.

My guess here is there is no registry entry to enable/disable dynamic shared memory when it is enabled by default, nor for the amount of ram utilized............

 

You were given a generic answer and the question wasn't answered.

All it says is that they can't control if its shared or not.
I know it can be shared, I'm arguing that it can't use the shared memory.
Also the 9800m GTS wasn't mentioned. They might not realize what card is being used.

I emailed them again directed at the 9800M GTS.

 

Ok then, we will do it again..............

The responce I've sent back for further qualification of the answer;

Hi
Thank you for the quick answer. My question pertains specifically to the included 9800m GTS with 1MB dedicated memory included in the Gateway P7805u. included within the system. The reference design according to notebookcheck.com states we have no access to any shared memory and MXM interface. Our cards are soldered on pci-e x16 not MXM in case it matters.

Various sites show 9800m GTS cards with the ability for shared ram other sites don’t, is this a capability of the 9800m GTS or just a generic showing of the feature in the WHQL drivers even though it is not available?

Thanks Again,

Edit; by the fact the 9700m and 9800m are G94 cores and can use Shared memory in SLI from the adds I've shown It appears the core itself is capable, so I did not include the core in the question sent...........

Edit 2; SiSandra shows it as texture memory for the card as in the pic below. This is what I would expect a GPU to use it for if the need arises, not the FB etc when there is plenty of dedicated memory available........

 

Read this from the bottom up! or just this last part.

I emailed him back to check what other models do not use shared memory.

All i did was copy paste. After he emails me back this last time i'll post screen shots of the convo.
______

Hello,

Thank you for the update.

The graphic card 9800m GT itself come with a dedicated memory for the graphic card and it does not require any shared memory of the CPU or the laptop memory than the dedicated memory, though in some cases the OS like WINDOWS 7 and Vista may allocate the memory but the graphic card does not use any shared memory.

Please feel free to contact us further clarification.

Best regards,
Kishen,
NVIDIA Customer Care
-------------------------------
Customer (xxscionxx) 02/28/2011 03:06 PM
Hello, Thank you for your response.

Theres is nothing wrong with my GPU, I just want to further understand my hardware.

I have come to believe that the 9800m GTS Can not use shared memory from any source. (Its not enabled in the chipset)

Is this true?


--------------------------------
Response (Kishen) 02/28/2011 01:55 PM
Hello,

Thank you for contacting NVIDIA Customer Care.

This is Kishen, assisting you in troubleshooting the issue that you are experiencing. First, I would like to apologize for your support request being unexpectedly delayed.

From the problem description, I understand that you have issue with the graphic card as you are not able to get the graphic card use the shared memory.

I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please be assured that I will do my best to help you. However, to analyze the issue better and to determine the cause for the problem, I will need additional information:

1. Since when are you facing this issue with the graphic card?
2. How exactly do you say that the graphic card is not using the shared memory?

I will look forward to your reply to assist you better.

Best regards,
Kishen,
NVIDIA Customer Care
------------------------------------

Customer (xxScionxx) 02/27/2011 11:11 PM
I am running Windows 7 on my laptop. I understand that Windows 7 allocates Shared memory for the GPU when/if its needed.
I've read however, that the 9800m GTS can't use the shared memory even if it is being shared, despite the OS configuration.

Can the 9800m GTS use this shared memory if/when its need?

Thank You!

 

9800m GTS does not use shared memory but the dynamic memory in the form of what they call turbocache. It is essentially a texture memory cache directly accessable (read only) by the video card. This is why SiSandra reports this as texture memory.

Just to show here is another advertised system originally accessing turbocache

Under Directx 10 and 11 it is a directly viewable source. Details are shady but under Directx 9c supposedly the resources can be polled for with programing commands.

Again the memory to the card is read only to the card from my understanding, if you understand programing a bit read this as you get further in with DX9c you will see there is a way to load the texture to system memory where the video card can later retrieve it "D3DPOOL_SYSTEMMEM".

I can not find a programing resource for cuda to use this memory. It appears cuda does not have resources to access this memory. Which makes sence, since cuda runs on the GPU from the card it can not write to read only system memory.

 

I'm sure its possible with a work-around but stock from nvidia it doesn't support any form of shared memory. sisandra is just reading what windows says. put xp on that laptop like I did and your shared memory goes away.

Edit:

The 9800m has no control over the System ram. It doesn't have the capability to use it. I know how turbocache works. either there lying (doubt it but wouldn't be the first time) or they modified the chip design. I know 100% this isn't the case for the p-7805u. the 9800m gts in this the fx doesn't not have this.

 

Are you running DX9c or above? Also I am not sure by default the os XP even gives the card, or any other, that capabilty...............

Edit; Correct it has no direct control over the ram it is not directly or fully shared, this is not UMA! It can only read it from the reseved pool assigned by the OS................

Edit2; now most programers queing the card with 1 GB direct memory may never even load the textures using the SYSTEMMEM pool (remember these are just pointers easily reasigned). This could be a good reason we rarely if ever even see it being used. If you google it though there was a guy with a private program that was complaining of loading 12GB of textures with 16GB ram and fragmentation of the texture memory. no one answered him though.................

 

a few years ago when i was chasing benchmarks with the p-7805u, I installed xp to see how it performed over windows 7. XP doesn't share memory, there for it didn't show up as having anything but the 1gb of dedicated memory. Windows 7 however sets aside memory but the card was unable to use it. xp had better marks but it was only running dx9 so it was bias and in the end I went with windows 7.

Edit:

On my G73JH with the ATI 5870 Windows and sisandra says i have 3gb of memory for my gpu. However My GPU doesn't support any form of shared memory as well as the 9800m. sisandra is just saying what windows 7 is telling it.

 

ATI calls theirs Hypermemory, not sure about your model but some systems of the series video card 58xx have it. The cards can not use it, they can not write to it, they only can read from it.

Edit; Here is an ad showing it does have HyperMemory, not too sure..............

 

I am aware of it. however, this card does not.

Your last link won't load for me.

 

heere is a pic

Another link

 

Since the Actual manufacture of that laptop says nothing of hypermemory ASUSTeK Computer Inc. - Notebooks - ASUS G73Jh I'm not going to take a shady translated website's word on it.

ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5870 - Notebookcheck.net Tech

As for the 9800m GTS I should get confirmation from Nvidia that it can't use it tomorrow.

Off subject, well lol rather on subject, did you try out those games I suggested?

 

Not sure about your system again, I do not have it. Again I am just saying I've seen it advertised as a feature. As far as games I'm a one at a time mostly, still playing Dirt 2. I know I'm slow, happens with old age............

Got my responce from nVidia,