AMD Jaguar analysis

Yes kitties are cute, and big kitties are awesome

AMD Jaguar Core Demystified

so lets take a look at whats powering the ps4 and possible tablets, and no **** about nvidia

 

Nice link, thanks.

Get an NBR moderator to change this thread's title to something similar to: AMD Jaguar core demystified

Meaning in addition to "Jaguar analysis" also get "AMD" into the thread title.

The Jaguar/Kabini APU's run from 25W, down to 9W

The Jaguar/Temash APU's run from 8W, down to 3.9W

 

here are more info that came on jaguar

AnandTech | AMD

AnandTech | AMD

AnandTech | A Closer Look at the Kabini Die

AnandTech | The AMD Kabini Review: A4-5000 APU Tested

 

Yeah, just read all those links...


AMD is now finally 'power-wise'... but 'performance-wise' it is still the same old, same old...

Don't know how the quad core will perform compared to IB i3's, but without hyper threading, turbo boost and 'real' clock speed, it doesn't look good.

A minimum requirement (okay; 'my' minimum...) for a platform right now is an i5 with quad core ambitions (Hyper Threading accepted...) with dual channel+ RAM and up to 32GB memory capacity.

This is if I want to invest/use the system for the next half decade or so in even 'light' computing needs.


In my opinion, AMD is taking teeny, tiny baby steps forward. It needs to leap off the cliff (with as much engineering daring as it can muster) if it wants to fly again.


Still, this 'Kabini' is much better than the E350 based mini Foxconn desktop I play with - it may be the performance upgrade (with the same/better power savings) that I need to actually use it (more) productively...

 

ah well, I for once think that they should think of a beast and decide to do it. We are going to see some results of the new talents going back or in amd in a few years, so lets wait till those guys have something to show

 

Would this be a good place to list Temash/Kabini products, such as the new HP Pavilion 11 TouchSmart and Acer V5? Since this is pretty much THE Jaguar arch thread? I'ts getting crowded in TUATNL thread and that one's more or less for Trinity/Richland. Just sayin'


Thanks for the links, looks like some good reading.

 

Seems like the right spot to me.

That Acer V5 uses the Temash APU (~8W?) and looks like a smaller version of a Thinkpad X230/X220. Mildly interesting.

But reviews like this are mainly good for running up the bill on your 4G network!

 

Did you read this review by our very own

First Look Review: AMD Showcases New Processors

The prototype and Kabini got a positive review here and by others so now its up to the OEMs to deliver what we want.

 

go ahead and drop it. BUT sincerely however designed jaguar was way better than however designed bulldozer

 

I wonder, if motherboards will allow for overclocking these babies (Kabini especially, since Temash is more tablet oriented).

 

Anyone complaining about the performance of this APU should be reminded that it is supposed to compete against Atoms/Celerons/Pentiums and not exactly with Ivy Bridges/Haswells. If you want that type of performance then you should go for those types of CPUs or Trinity/Richland APUs.

The Anandtech review is biased. And if you go to page 6 of comments you'll see why so. Jarred thinks this should be compared to Ivy ULVs like the i5 when that's clearly not the case, nor was it stated by AMD as being the case. He states this:

If you want a more impartial review then read the review of the Kabini A4-5000 by Notebookcheck.net.
It has a lot more significant comparisons of Kabini with Atoms, Pentiums and Intel Core i3, Sandy and Ivy Bridge.

CPU performance

GPU performance

Power

Conclusion

 

its not a problem of anandtech being biased, the problem is jarred, he is in so deep with nvidia that is embarrassing, he usually doesnt know what to focus on notebooks reviews, which is strange given that he is the dedicated notebook reviewer, dustin is better but still meh.

So notebookcheck is not biased because they put to test against lowly i3 ULVs? really? the gap in performance as you probably arent aware in the i3 ulv to the i5 ulv is such a big gap, on the other hand the gap on the i5 to i7 is so low, usually at 10% or less...

in the end its as I said, more competent people designed this cpu than the mongrels who did bulldozer.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6981/...quality-of-mainstream-pcs-with-its-latest-apu

I pretty much agree with this and wonder what temash will deliver in terms of power consumption, kabini is already pretty low. Tablets and smartphones have another cpu in the market, I hope they take it, its much more powerful than anything out there.

 

"mongrels"?

That's very very good. As in not cool at all!

re davidricardo86 from the ongoing AMD trinity/richland thread: >"Lately, I've come to the realization i want a 10.1-11.6" 'netbook' for light and inexpensive portability... or Lenovo ThinkPad X-like)"<

I too want a small wifi capable (i.e. free Interconnect capability) Win8 'netbook' or tablet. My small Win7 X220 only comes close. The open issue is if it is close enough? I mean, I've already spent the money.

This past January's Consumer Reports issue has a highly useful 12 page writeup on the whole ongoing cell phone thing, including the new 3G/4G smartphones and also basic (lowest cost) cell phones.

The two numbers that stand out are:

1. Top end 4G cell (smartphone) users are paying more than $2,500 per year!!!

2. The open bragging of both AT&T and Verizon of their recent very high profits!!!

While I like high tech high performance..., I like low cost better.

 

AMD talks up Kabini digital power management
No new tech but a lot of new visuals
May 24, 2013 by Charlie Demerjian

 

Won't the GPU in the next-gen consoles be severely bottlenecked by such a weak CPU? Especially in the PS4's case, where an i3 ULV level CPU is being paired with a 7970M...

 

The Jaguar APU in the Xbox One and PS4 supports HSA. Plus, it's an octo core, so unless if you run a quad or dual threaded game on the big APUs, the CPU wouldn't bottleneck the GPU.

And should the CPU still bottleneck the GPU, HSA can be used to shift physics calculations and other computations onto the GPU, thus balancing the load.

A shame that the existing PC Jaguar APUs don't support HSA. Then again, why add in support for codes that are still non-existent (at least until after the new consoles come out), when the efforts could be focused on improving power consumption?

 

Do they? I didnt knew that they had HSA support yet.

This will be interesting, since single threaded performance still leaves a lot to be desired, with the consoles we can expect games that will make use of multithread libraries, thats gotta be good

 

Notebookcheck is not biased becaused they compared Kabini to the Intel CPUs that they said that Kabini was targeting. That is Pentiums. Not i5s. I don't have an issue with the i5 being there for comparison's sake but they shouldn't compare it to the i5 and then mention that Kabini underperforms because AMD NEVER STATED that Kabini A4-5000 should compete against the Cores.
Just look now at Anandtech where they had to get another guy to do a suplemental review to Kabini because the first was just poor. Maybe it was because every other hardware site managed to find a Pentium powered notebook to compare with Kabini. And because every other hardware site saw that Kabini offers a pretty good deal compared with the Pentium - it wipes the floor with it in GPU performance, is outcompeted in single thread performance and competitive on multi-thread.
Not bad for an architecture that is used to compete with Atoms.

 

pretty much what they are, bulldozer is in no uncertain terms a lame job. Jaguar on the other is a cpu made to compete with atom, and its competing with standard voltage crap cpus, which while they are crap they are still in another league compared to atom.


@gaugamela, read what I wrote, again

Fair warning charlie demerjian has mental problems, some of us know that some dont

 

Jaguar sounds like it is made to compete with Atom of years (and years - tech-wise...) ago...

See:
Intel’s Silvermont revealed: After a five-year snooze, Intel is finally ready to crush ARM | ExtremeTech

 

yeah Im waiting to see whats going to be of atom, the problem is that if its too powerful, pentium and core i3 are going be in for in house competition, if its not too powerful we let ARM free rein on the extreme mobility market and with the power of jaguar they need to aim for that in house competition

 

I'd say these Jaguar cores are very effective, clock to clock faster than the big brother Trinity (Piledriver) cores, while the core sizes and power consumption is fraction of that. Anandtech should have compare it with the upcoming Haswell-ULT or ULX which also cut by Single Channel memory controller.

 

exactly one of my points

 

re Atom, either old or new, I have no clue how all of this low watt x86 cpu stuff is going to fall out.

Would you call Atom an x86 cpu?

Your ref was interesting to me only in that it leads to a 4th page at: There can only be one: Smartphones are the PCs of the future | ExtremeTech

re smartphones, a few things I think I've recently learned:

1. None of them (including all (?) true tablets) uses a low watt x86 cpu.

2. If you think laptops change fast, smartphones take rapidity of change to the next level.

3. Given the astounding sales numbers, do smartphones get used much on free wifi at coffee shops or local library???

I often see laptops used at coffee shops and local library.

4. Signing up for a 3G or 4G network costs MAJOR money!

 

True that! I've held off from doing so just because I don't feel like forking over $1000+ a year just for average network speeds on a rare occasion I need it. It would be nice to have. Just not $1000+ a year nice.

 

Yes, Atom is x86. Yes, it is the future (x86 I mean; not ARM, or anything else that is running dumb smart phones now...).


#3: Sure, they get used lots - but that doesn't mean a lot gets done with them.


Notebooks/laptops: yeah, that is what is 'used' for anything worth doing.


Signing up for a 3G or 4G network now is the 2013 equivalent of buying a slower computer for much more money - yeah; Apple - oh! You can still do that/both!!!

 

But a sizable number of people must be signed up for 3G or even the still more expensive 4G service, for use with their new smartphone, coz I sure don't see them making much use of free wifi anywhere.

I'm looking to get a new cell phone for myself. This past January 2013 issue of Consumer Reports has a terrific 12 page writeup on the whole spread of cell phone options from the most expensive smartphone w/ 4G-service, to the lowest cost prepaid. Pretty good!!

One amusing recent personal tale is that I'm in a local wine store and I see this guy with his iPhone held up so that he can read the screen (or maybe for better reception?). I ask him what he's doing. He says that he's checking various web ratings of wines that the store has for sale.

He did make a recommendation for me of a $10 wine, and I can add that it was excellent.

 

How is setting up a test strictly adhering to the framework the company's PR department has sketched out not biased..?

Anyway. The point is that they have chosen a performance target that is "high enough" for normal desktop use, video playback, etc. And then incrementally shaved down on the power required to do that. In that specific respect, the apus are unbeatable.

They're in their own league completely. Intel's "2w" draws on Haswell is a complete fabrication - the chip is never going to have that draw as long as it's powered on. While amd's 4-8w operation is completely believable considering the targets possible to hit on Llano underclocks.

So depending on your actual needs, the chip can be a genuinely good pick. So I really don't see the need to start "excusing" the fact that AMD isn't making a processor that drains your battery in no time at all, while frying the cooling goop on your "ultrabook", etc.

 

By the way, is there a reason why the forum admin has set up the swear filter to replace "Public Relations" with "Google Page Ranking"? I don't get the joke.

Another thing - why are people making the argument that x86 is the future over ARM - and that therefore intel's processors outcompete the apus? AMD made the apus to get a low watt target for an x86 platform. It's specifically tailored towards the "demands" for a low-watt x86 "core" processor in the laptop and tablet market, to extend windows and x86 in an environment where that would very quickly have been eaten up by ARM pretty much instantly.

I mean, you see what Intel are doing with the ULV processors, now that they've "abandoned" Atom, and made sure ION went nowhere on the pain of lawsuit? That's the market AMD is targeting, where Intel is lagging behind completely. Where AMD essentially usurps Intel's position, using the "x86 demand" intel and Microsoft has blazed out to extend themselves - successfully as well, even as there are massively better and more energy efficient hardware solutions out there for that product class..

edit: 1024 posts of nonsense.

 

I have been affected by that joke as well. its not even funny.

Because extreme mobility is where the big bucks are, though they have a very low margin. In the end intel put atom in a tick tock cadence and with silvermont we should see some competition with AMD in that area

 

I just can't understand fanboyism about Intel Atoms... They've been a joke untill now.
However, as good as Jaguar is - and it is a great APU for inexpensive notebooks/tablets - it will be sold in volume by low prices. That's not a very atractive market.
Lets see if AMD can dominate and start moving upwards again.

 

re x86 over ARM, I'm not making that argument!

AFAIK no current tablet uses x86, but I could be wrong about that.

Going still smaller, no smartphone uses x86.

There's a nice wiki on Ion at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Ion

The push by AMD and Intel, to very low power x86, is likely to stop encroachment by RISC/SoC.

Heck AMD/Intel would LOVE x86 to take over all tablets.

And just some of the smartphone biz would be icing on the cake. Not pie.

 

Surface Pro is an x86 tablet, Motorola RAZR i is an x86 phone...

 

Xenon has 3 cores, Jaguar will have 8 cores. Xenon is in-order, Jaguar is out-of-order. Xenon ran at 3.2GHz, while we have no idea for Jaguar. Xenon has 3 x VM128, Jaguar has 8 x FPU each capable of SSE4.1 instructions. Jaguar will outperform the Xenon, even at much lower clock rates (I'd expect somewhere between 1.5 to 1.8GHz). It has an estimated IPC of 1.1, while the Xenon is somewhere 0.4. At any rate, it's rather moot because the APU is a parallel math beast and has a unified memory and system architecture.

For example, a developer estimated the Xenon has about 70-80% of a single Nehalem core. A single i7-920 core is much slower than a quad core Jaguar. At any rate an E-350 is about 10KMIPs, Xenos is 19.2KMIPs. Even if we simply quadruple the E-350 (to 8 cores) we still more than double the performance of the Xenon.

 

Good input, but only some is x86, the rest is ARM(RISC). See: Microsoft Surface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With the long history of RAZR I suppose anything is possible.

Seems unlikely given: Motorola Razr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

He was referencing this: Motorola RAZR i - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Surface Pro is Intel Ivy Bridge: Surface Pro - Microsoft Store
The Samsung ATIV: Features - Tablet PCs XE500T1C | Samsung Tablet PCs
Amongst others:

 

you forgot also about the phones that come with atom, there are more than just the razri

 

Interesting.

The Surface Pro seems high priced glitz.

I wonder how many they're selling?

 

depends, at launch they were immediately out of stock, only the 64gb was available (I dont know why they even bothered with that size), after things settled apparently they arent selling that well.

but that is the only tablet that I ever considered, and thats a lot by my accounts, since I find tablets hideous and useless devices

 

Thanks for the meaningful response, especially since I've given you a hard time on pie.

Perhaps you might consider changing your sig, away from lowly cake and pie, to something more nutritious?

Anyway and FWIW I bought a 3G (wifi-capable) smartphone today at a local Radio Shack. It's not x86 (which is key to this AMD/Jaguar/Kabini/Temash thread) but it gets me started with 3G smartphone. So I paid $35 for a month of 3G w/ Virgin Mobile's (Sprint carrier) month to month service w/ a Kyocera phone (slightly smaller than the iPhone's) and $50 for the Android based phone ($30 off (sale)).

I can return it in 29 days and get most of my money back, except the $35 for a month of 3G service from Virgin Mobile.

So I've got some homework to do in the next 29 days:

1. Is 3G smartphone really worth to me 3.5x the money that basic monthly (less than $10) Tracfone charges for cell phone use?

2. If I like 3G, can I do better (less than $35/month) with Consumer Cellular smartphone service? I know that they do smartphone but not much else at this point.

3. The best way to learn is to do it.

4. AFAICT this is the main market that low power x86 wants entry into.

5. I'll update on this in this thread in another 20+ days (if not sooner).

6. Smartphones I can see. The whole thing on tablets (x86 or other) escapes me at this point, but I'm in serious learning mode, so cut me some slack.

 

I had one of the early android phones, and since them Im rocking those dumb phones. What I did with the thing was basically play games, and read books. Internet connection unless I was at a wifi hotspot was pretty terrible (despite that I live in one of the largest cities in the planet, that actually costs a lot more to live in than some european capitals), so I wouldnt use it, since I was at a hotspot I would just get my mbp and be done with it.

basically smartphones depend A LOT on internet, for you to consume whatever you want to consume on those things. basically thats why I think tablets are useless, they dont provide enough difference from a smartphone, just that they have a larger screen, I saw some that made calls, which was to say the least awkward moment of the day, seeing someone holding a 10" thing to the face and trying to pretend nothing is happening

 

Thanks very much for that!

I'll find out where I get to with my new 3G smartphone.

But... If you wish to grow thinner, diminish your dinner,
And take to light claret instead of pale ale;
Look down with an utter contempt upon butter,
And never touch bread till it's toasted- or stale
H. S. Leigh

 

I prefer very much this one

“The ultimate meaning to which all stories refer has two faces: the continuity of life, the inevitability of death.”
― Italo Calvino

though this is more fitting

“I have tried to remove weight, sometimes from people, sometimes from heavenly bodies, sometimes from cities; above all I have tried to remove weight from the structure of stories and from language.”
― Italo Calvino

and btw its star wars joke on my sig, from the code of the sith

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

and now a tricky question, whats the music in my avatar?

 

Force, and fraud, are in war the two cardinal virtues. T.Hobbes

Ah very very very tricky....

So OK, given my handle I admit that I'm a music guy.

Unlikely to be pop or anything like that, given that it's in graphic form.

On a long shot, maybe Bach or Beethoven?

OTOH you're the OP of this thread and this is way OT. Shame! (LOL!)

 

“Other people must be destroyed. In order that I might truly face the sun, the world itself must be destroyed....”
― Yukio Mishima, The Temple of the Golden Pavilion

“Yet how strange a thing is the beauty of music! The brief beauty that the player brings into being transforms a given period of time into pure continuance; it is certain never to be repeated; like the existence of dayflies and other such short-lived creatures, beauty is a perfect abstraction and creation of life itself. Nothing is so similar to life as music.”
― Yukio Mishima, The Temple of the Golden Pavilion

and for a tip, its new, its modern and a jew loved it so much that it inspired him

I know its extremely trick but that should narrow it down a lot, given that I wouldnt have enough space to use more than that in an avatara

 

With Haswell's recent release, this is the best summary title and short writeup that I've seen: Why a Haswell PC may quench your thirst for tablets | PCWorld

My new smartphone with a 3.5" screen will be returned for refund in 2 weeks.

I find myself doubting the value of any current 4G smartphone with a screen that is close to ~5" w/ the only good thing being that it fits in one's pocket.

I looked up iPad Mini and it has an 8" screen (choke).

So low powered x86 is showing it isn't giving up.

Small and light laptops are the far better deal.

 

I really like the Gigabyte Temash tablet. Anyone got any good info on it?

Sent from my SPH-M580 using Tapatalk 2

 

nope we still have to wait for more trick down info from computex

@othersongs the ipad mini is actually smaller than my kobo ereader, I like it, I wont use it till they come up with something more decent

have you figured out the music yet? the influenced jew is a major american composer, already gone though, loved the guy

 

HP Jaguar laptops starting to popup...

HP Pavilion TouchSmart 11z-e000 Notebook PC

HP Pavilion TouchSmart 14z-f000 Sleekbook

 

ack, so much failure. put those cats in a tablet and people will rejoice, love it, caress it firmly although still delicately, whispering softly open youtube and show me cat videos