Abnormalities I noticed with Ryzen Mobile laptops in general.

A good day to you all,
Today, I am going to discuss something very weird and abnormal, that is Ryzen Mobile's laptops using the mobile R3,R5 and R7.
For a long time now, I have read through a few Ryzen laptops's reviews from NotebookCheck.net and things got weird to say the least.
Take a look at these two laptops, one from Acer and the another from HP.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-...ga-10-Laptop-Review.301020.0.html#toc-verdict
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-...ga-10-Laptop-Review.301020.0.html#toc-verdict
If you look at the verdict,they always end with one thing: poor performance.
They were meant to go in toe-to-toe with the Kaby Lake R but...they failed.
Crashing, BSOD, throttling, and many other.
Which makes me wonder: Is this really normal because look at how well desktop Ryzen CPU kicks Intel's ass.
Or it's the manufacturer's fault for terrible QA/QC, bad design and drivers support, or something more sinister?
Maybe Intel intervened and forced them to make Ryzen looks worse than Intel on the mobile frontier so that they can keep their monopoly on the market?
This is just a theory, please don't bash me for this.

 

Desktop Ryzen is slower than Intel for everything other multi-threaded workloads, where it can take back the crown. You are correct in that that the one laptop you linked to is just a badly designed laptop. It probably has single channel RAM, which Ryzen suffers heavily from. Ryzen can be very fast in a mobile enviroment, but a decently designed laptop that features it has yet to be released, or annouced to my knowledge.

 

You are drawing conclusions from inadequate data.

Check out the Ryzen laptop forums here and get owners feedback, they are all positive after they get used to their new laptops. There have been RMA's of early Asus Ryzen CPU +RX GPU laptops, but that got sorted out, and now Acer is shipping their own Ryzen+Vega laptop (soon?).

Asus ROG GL702ZC owners lounge
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/asus-rog-gl702zc-owners-lounge.809882/

And, prices are good on the Asus Ryzen 1st gen, probably clearing the decks for a new Ryzen 2 model:

Asus ROG Strix GL702ZC (AMD Ryzen) laptop - $1,399 at MicroCenter
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...amd-ryzen-laptop-1-399-at-microcenter.816973/

Acer Preditor (Vega 56+Ryzen 2) Helios 500
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/acer-preditor-vega-56-ryzen-2-helios-500.817796/

And, there are the Intel / Radeon G CPU laptops, and Ryzen APU laptops (2700U), there are forum threads about them too. They are of less interest to me.

The AMD return to laptops is just starting

 

He is talking about about Ryzen Mobile, not a desktop chip in the laptop. Similar, but not identical.

 

Yeah, I mentioned those briefly, but they aren't of interest to me now that the full PGA CPU's are arriving in laptops.

Odd issues happened with both the U and PGA CPU's initially, teething pains of new hardware adoption. Time to market forces compromises and dictates resources available. Those companies are in it for the profit, not to produce perfection. Especially on the first go around, or even the second.

The 2700U is oddly less performant than the 2500U(?), as I recall benchmarks in games put the 2700U at lower performance in some games, which is odd, but that's what happens when things are new - weird results.

I don't think his theories of sabotage are true either, just teething pains of bringing new CPU's and chipsets into being.

 

I have no interest in BGA either, especially because how cheap a decent PGA/LGA machine is.
2700u vs 2500u is probably similar to how the 8950HK in the MBP 2018 throttles too much to be of any true use compared to the 8750h
Or it could be single channel RAM

 

Early on I posted a lot of benchmark results and info about the 2700U / 2500U in the general Ryzen threads, and then there are some other laptop brand / model specific threads I posted info into as well - I'll eventually look them up and add them here.

For now these are the main Ryzen threads with all the AMD CPU info:

AMD's Ryzen CPU's (Ryzen/TR/Epyc) & Vega/Polaris GPU's
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/amds-ryzen-cpus-ryzen-tr-epyc-vega-polaris-gpus.799348/

Ryzen vs i7 (Mainstream); Threadripper vs i9 (HEDT); X299 vs X399; Xeon vs Epyc
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...99-vs-x399-xeon-vs-epyc.805695/#post-10771640

I've made hundreds of Ryzen / AMD posts you might be interested in reading, as well as many others contributed 100's of posts in those threads.

 

They perform very well, but sucks at the rest.
Desktop CPU in a laptop form factor and you can upgrade it is something truly miracle that ASUS manages to pull off but the heat and power needed for the CPU to work and combine with fact that they have no kind of iGPU to use when using battery makes them last not so long away from a charger.
And the i7-8xxG is considered somewhat dead in my opinion because of three things: thermals, battery life and drivers support.
I will explain later, because I am in a hurry.
See you soon!

 

There are new Ryzen E CPU's from AMD with lower power TDP - 35w instead of 65w, so power limited they will adapt better to thin form factor laptops.

There will be a lot of new AMD stuff coming out, and a lot of vendor growth adapting to the new options from AMD, so it will be up and down for a while until AMD gets their deliverables in line with what is needed for laptops.

I do like slim 2in1 laptops for light carry, so even there the 2700u / 2500u and follow-on APU's will be of interest.

 

Clevo has been pulling that off since 2010 or so. Its not too impressive overall IMO. I would still prefer a i7-8xxxG over this purely because it performs better than the 2700U

 

It's too bad Intel didn't put the 6c/12t CPU into the G range, hopefully they will follow through with that in another release. Maybe even 8c/8t

The G series is in a different playing field than the 2700U / 2500U, 15w APU's are not comparable to 65w(?) / 100w(?) G CPU's...

Of course AMD is likely to zero in on a good multi-core Ryzen CPU + Radeon GPU configuration themselves, on 7nm... and scale them from 15w up to 250w.

 

That would make an honestly killer mini ITX PC or laptop, assuming proper cooling
AMD hasn't been too competitive laptop wise, they seem to be focusing on 7NM

 

Yup, there are only so many plays that AMD can juggle at the same time, and so far they seem to be doing great.

Hopefully AMD can ramp up everything equally as demand arises, but I know that's not always perfectly possible to implement in real life.

 

I'm back.
The i7-8xxxG is a fantastic idea, but dead. Why?
1.Thermals and energy issues: The Dell XPS 2-in-1 that I have read the reviews about mentioned something like shared wattages between the CPU and GPU and Dell has purposely limited them to 30-40W and since the GPU doesn't have enough power, it can't never boost higher or only for a little amount.
2.Drivers: Since the CPUs are so new, drivers has to be developed from scratch and there will be bugs and things needed to be fixed and optimized. About the drivers for the GPU though, some guy at AMD thought that it would be great if they released drivers once in 3 months. And that's a terrible idea since the newest drivers are needed for the system to work or perform as expected and they stopped doing so. And that maybe why the Vega GPU has problems with certain titles or new releases because there's no support or optimization.

 

Yes, but in the Intel NUC, it performed quite admirably, similar to a 1050 ti at around ~90% of its power usage. As well the cpu side of those APUs is just a rebranded 8250u/8550u.
As for drivers, yes a little worrisome, but the same thing is going to happen for the AMD APU side of things as well

 

Yeah,quite well I suppose.
I wonder why Intel didn't put in a 6c/12t CPU coupled with the Vega. With some software and optimization magic it would be fantastic.
Maybe because of heat issues?

 

It would be the same if not slightly higher than the 100W TDP of the i7 8xxxG

 

Is it possible?
6c/12t CPU coupled with an Vega needs far more than 100W,around 125-150W or more.
To be functional, not counting the OC on the GPU.

 

45W+65W=110w
If we are talking a new AMD solution, like integrated RX 580 GPU, the TDP would definitively be around 150W

 

I don't remember that the i7-8750H or a 6c/12t Intel CPU that's not an i9-8950K uses 45W, at least 50-60W.

 

The D900C was 2007, featuring a Core 2 Extreme Desktop CPU. Although today's TDP requirements are become harder and harder to cool, I find it quite remarkable on how they cool these components with each new generation.

 

But along the way, they became more thick and heavy,the heat they output can burn your lap when put on it.
If only they were a little more thin and stylish,with a cheaper price but still packs the punch I would happily buy it over anything BGA.
And maybe gain more popularity in the process, to pro-sumers and general consumers.

 

I don't know, personally I think these desktop cpu models seem to be getting thinner and thinner (which I don't like or want!).

I think my acer thin n light would burn my lap more than my P751 but honestly I don't use them that way, at minimum I have a folding laptop surface I put them on, always have done that since the mid 90's. Carry it in my backpack so it's always with me.

 

What's a folding laptop surface?
And about the Acer, why was it burning your lap?
Too hot?

 

These are the ones I like, I have two of them I've been using for many years. Can hold a 17" but barely, and no mouse. 15 is very tight with a mouse, and under 15" can more comfortably have the mouse next to notebook.

https://www.amazon.com/LapWorks-LTD20-Laptop-Desk-2-0/dp/B0009HMN6S

This kind works great for home on the sofa, more comfortable for long sessions but it's not very portable. You can even use a notebook cooling stand on it if you find one that fits.

https://www.amazon.com/Honey-Can-Do-TBL-03540-Portable-Laptop-Handle/dp/B00FQK13XM

Yeah the acer runs super hot due to its thinness, limited/small vents and very small fans. Depending on how I have it folded it can't breath as well. I mainly use it for watching videos but occasionally in a pinch I use it for gaming.

 

The 2700U performing less than 2500U might be down to TDP constrictions by the OEM's and single-channel RAM implementations.
The 2500U can 'stretch' itself within its TDP ratio, but the 2700U I suspect cannot (and this is mostly thanks to OEM's not allowing it to).

AMD still gets the 'low end treatment' by OEM's in the mobile sector, so we need to bear these things in mind.

Aside from that, I hadn't noticed any inherent instabilities with my GL702ZC for example (apart from the OS being set-up incorrectly by ASUS it seems).

 

Thank you for responding here, you've given a lot of feedback about your Asus Ryzen + RX580, so you are the perfect person to answer @Mr.K-1994 's concerns.

 

Increasing memory bandwidth will have very little impact on CPU only workloads with Raven ridge. It's worth remembering that Raven ridge contains only one CCX and therefore does not suffer from cross CCX latency issues Summit ridge does. I believe the main problem is that Acer set a 75 C limit at which the CPU and GPU will start throttling. There are also multiple driver/firmware bugs which cause things like this to happen (watch the GPU clock speed).

Kaby Lake G is dead because of the price. HBM & EMIB make it much more expensive than a simple i7 7700HQ + gtx 1050 ti combination. The package it comes in (BGA2270) requires an OEM to design a motherboard from scratch in order release a laptop with Kaby Lake G. These two factors have meant that this solution is too expensive to be used in anything but ultra premium devices (e.g. the Dell XPS 15 9575 starts at $1700) and expensive NUCs.

Kaby Lake G shares a total power budget of 65 W - 100 W between the CPU and GPU:

Spoiler

 

If you really want to know more about the Raven Ridge article please read this:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1196...md-apus-for-laptops-with-vega-and-updated-zen

 

As an owner of GL702ZC, the only 'malfunction' I suffered was 'something' frying itself on the motherboard after about 1 month of using the laptop (I suspect due to Asus relatively poor implementation of cooling, which was incidentally better in this laptop than on most of their ROG line with Intel and Nvidia).
That got sorted with Asus replacing the motherboard on it (as part of RMA) and the laptop has been working fine since - plus, I undervolted the CPU and GPU, and overclocked the CPU too... so now I'm getting better performance for lower power draw and lower temps than before.
I suspect the initial issue might be 'early adoption woes'... should something like that happen again, I am covered for another year and a half (2 years in total since the day of purchase) since I had the laptop for 7 months now.

I also upgraded the RAM from 16GB to 32GB (so I activated dual-channel from which Ryzen CPU's tend to benefit) - though, in order to maximize the CPU, I'd need to upgrade from say 2400MhZ RAM to say 3000 MhZ or 3200MhZ RAM (which as you know can be expensive for a laptop).
I might just upgrade to faster RAM once I upgraded to Zen 2 (provided of course I get the needed BIOS updates that will allow me to slap it in there - and presumably use much higher frequencies - one of the users of GL702ZC who has Linux said he already slipstreamed Ryzen+ support into 303 version of BIOS, and thus far, the newly flashed BIOS seems to work - so, I'm encouraged for Zen 2 support in case it doesn't come from Asus itself).

I hadn't experienced crashing, BSOD's or throttling for that matter.
The only 'issue' I had that came close to that was the OS being set up incorrectly. Games couldn't produce saves, but I managed to sort that out with a clean Windows 10 install. Since then, no issues.
BIOS updates have been regular on Asus part, the drivers work great (even though initially they produced a minor issue with Freesync not working - but that problem was corrected early on).

You have to keep in mind that 2700U and 2500U have certain TDP limits, and OEM's usually restrict them to the 'lowest' TDP rating that AMD allows, which means that the 2500U will be able to stretch itself, but the 2700U might not and could end up throttling.

Adding to that, OEM's mostly treat AMD in a 'low grade' manner. They 'cripple' the system by not giving it dual-channel RAM for example, pairing it with relatively slow hardware, and they don't necessarily put in proper cooling to meet AMD's demands (this is one of their biggest problems along with lack of dual-channel RAM support or implementation from the get go).

I've been saying for a while now that AMD should probably try designing their own reference laptops and sell them directly to avoid the bad treatment from OEM's if they could, or at least pair up with OEM's who will copy AMD's reference design without compromise and price it properly (without gouging the customers).

 

Do you think that there's Intel intervention in this new adoption for AMD?

 

And also NVIDIA's scheme of GPP kills it.
So little amount of products using a wonderful and unique architecture.
You can make it into a handheld Windows 10 gaming machine.Or a mini PC capable of editing videos and light gaming.The possibilities are endless.

 

In all honesty, I don't know.
Intel's dominance over the market is pretty big, and they DID manipulate it in the past by paying OEM's to use their hardware when it comes to laptops.

Ryzen's introduction did change things, but I suspect that even if there isn't 'direct' intervention from Intel this time around, then we're seeing 'after-effects' of Intel's market manipulation/domination.
Some OEM's (such as DELL) could be intentionally making AMD's laptops less powerful and more expensive... and as such are 'sucking up to Intel' for more revenue (think of it like 'brand loyalty' or 'brand blindness' - people getting a certain brand just because they were persuaded to do so by advertising, even though other options are just as good, if not better and cheaper).

Others might simply want to stick to certain 'design parameters', so they would use cooling implementation and hardware layout as used in some cheaper systems.... but this of course wouldn't necessarily translate well to AMD's benefit, as the cooling requirements might not be adequate (not because AMD is any less efficient - on the contrary - its just that each hardware needs its own cooling methodology).
So they might be looking to save some money and they do so by using 'pre-existing designs' as opposed to pooling more resources into designing a better system for a smaller rivaling company which in their eyes might not have 'as much influence or prestige' as Intel does (none of which matters to me or many others of course, but there are people who do go for it).

I don't know why some OEM's did not implement for example dual-channel support into new Ryzen laptops or the option to even upgrade RAM... it seems like a pretty big oversight to be honest, as it should really be a 'standard' of sorts these days... unless they were going for certain aspects... but in reality, they should have done their homework.

Adoption of Ryzen in the mobile market does seem to be increasing, and with it, implementation will probably improve as well over time.

I think a new laptop from HUAWEI, the MateBook D 14" (AMD) might be worth mentioning as it seems to have good specs and price... though I have no idea about RAM upgrades (though I do think its possible to have dual channel on it as I think I configured it before - I was thinking about getting one for my nephew).

 

I agree.
The OEMs just either:
1.Too lazy and didn't do their homework(Slapping old cooling into something brand new).
2.Did something fishy with Intel in the background.
3.The platform is still new and they haven't figured out how to design and manufacture them properly yet.

 

The biggest issues it seems so far are proper cooling as it is a new setup and have no real experience with it yet. And the systems with the 2700u are using bios's limiting it to the 15w tdp like the 2500u. For the 2700u to shine it needs that TDP headroom.

 

A couple of quick points regarding DTR with LGA Desktop CPU (starting with models from 2007):
1) They have always been thIcker than normal laptops
2) They were and still are meant to be used on a flat, surface.. Like a desk or hard laptop cooler... Never on your lap.
3) Cooling systems + large PSU means 15 lbs or more in the laptop.

For a lot of DTR owners and professionals, style and thin are tertiary behind 1) raw computing power and 2) moar powa!

 

At least I hope they don't look like an overpriced and RGB-infested laptop but more with industrial looks and edges and similar things.
Cut down all weird shapes,the air vents doesn't look like something from a racing car,etc..

 

That's what I was thinking.
The 2500u seems to have a nominal TDP range of 15W, whereas the 2700u can go up to 25W.... and as you say, it is likely the BIOS limitation preventing the 2700u from using full 25W (which is realistically only 10W increase - of course, this would likely be greater under load, etc.), but regardless, WHY on Earth are OEM's so cheap on this?

 

10w is small but compared to only 15w it is a huge increase. Now 25w reduces battery life and stress. Also the device needs to be able to be cooled. This again is where cooling 15w may be easy 25w may not be.

 

All The 2500U 2700U Laptops needs is more ram & might as well try the GSkill Ripjaw 3200Mhz module's, at least thats what I'm forced to do. Since it badly needs more memory to play hardly any games.

 

Looks like at least some (... Alienware [ https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/alienware-17-area51m-laptop ] ) have started to hear from people in my market segment. Hopeful other ODMs jump back in the game.