About Optical Drives

So I was looking at the Acer 3820TG and began thinking. It's a sub 4 lb notebook, just over 1" thick, runs an HD 5650 and i5 that people have overclocked the hell out of (9k+ 3DMark06) and still had very reasonable temperatures (~70C on GPU). There are many much larger notebooks that would never be able to do that!

Then I realized that it is mostly because of the space taken up by the optical drive. For those of you that have taken a notebook apart before - the optical drive can easily take up about 1/3 of the below-keyboard volume of a typical 15" notebook. Acer opted to get rid of the optical drive and put in a second heatsink and fan assembly instead - and are rewarded with a very successful notebook.

So I got to thinking - to be honest, the optical disk is a terrible means of storage in terms of data density and performance per volume (including the reader itself). A DVD drive assembly can only hold 4GB, but takes up a huge amount of space - in comparison, an SD card (which reads much faster than a DVD) plus the SD card reader (which is much cheaper than a DVD drive) and much, much less fragile (can't be scratched) takes up a tiny amount of space.

I think it's about time we get rid of this particular spinner - just like we did away with the floppy drives. I am quite sure that our current technology is sufficient for this - seeing as 4GB SD cards are already in the few dollars range - I think we could probably make similar and cheaper flash that sustain less read/write cycles, or read only cards that can be used for distribution of media and software.

And the liberated space can be used to make thin and light notebooks even thinner and lighter, and allow more cooling for performance notebooks. We have 15" notebooks with high powered GPUs (like the GX640 with the HD5850). If we took out the optical drive and stuck in an extra heatsink and fan, I'm quite sure a second HD 5850 can be put in there (imagine a 6lb notebook with 5850 CrossFire) and still have better power management. We could put in a second hard drive to support RAID. That'd be pretty damn cool, what do you guys think?

 

I agree.

 

I agree with your agreement.

 

I agree about dumping the optical drive: I abhor them and never really trust them as data storage options (long term or short term).

With the space gained, I can see how a specific notebook could be customized for gaming (2+ video cards), storage (3+ drive bays) or some compromise in between the two.

With SSD's becoming more and more mainstream though, I can see 6+ 'drive bays' easily available for bare SSD's (no covers/std. sizes needed). And this would be without taking advantage of the space gained by removing the OD.

With the space gained I myself would prefer a larger/quieter fan that spins slower than the whiny small fans that we have to put up with now (I don't game). A quieter notebook that is also constantly kept cooler (with no additional external cooler required) would be a win in my eyes.

I hate typing on a 'heated' keyboard!

 

Take the noisiest, most prone to overheating notebook you can think of - like the Lenovo Y460p. Imagine if you got rid of that optical drive and put in a 3" fan. That thing would be running at like 5C above room temperature..

 

3"? I want a 120mm in there!

 

Haha, don't forget the actual heatsink

And to be honest? That would cost the manufacturer less than an optical drive.

 

Who needs a heatsink if the internal air volume was changed 100+ times a minute?

 

Hold on, 100 times a minute? Is it a laptop or a leafblower?

 

LOL...


As long as it did it inaudibily, I don't care if I can garden while I compute.

Seriously though - with such a small internal volume of a notebook it should be easy to exchange it that fast and quietly too.

 

Yeah. I saw the Asus U30JC the other day, and i cringed at how thick and heavy it was. That's supposed to be an ultraportable, no? I looked at it and thought, hmm, the optical drive is half a laptop... what a waste. And then there are people that buy it and try to overclock the pitiful GT310M. They could have EASILY reduced the thickness by 30% and put in a GT335M with optimus if they got rid of that ODD..

 

min2209,

it's funny how we each have different perceptions.

I have the U30Jc (seems like the same as the JT, size-wise?) and think it is svelte and sexy compared to my 18.4" VAIO.

I would like a thinner notebook - but not at the expense of it running hotter.

I equate heat with a subpar design and that is why I categorically do not consider the MacBookPro's as a viable alternative to other available options. My systems are meant to be used fully and not simply look good sitting there (idling).

With the soon to be unleashed Huron River platform, we may both get what we value in one unit: thinnest notebook with below avg. temps - considering the computing power on tap.

Yeah! So many ways to go by giving up the OD: slimmest package, greatest performance for the size or reasonable size with coolest operating temps. All while offering at least two HD bays (for now)!

Hope 2011 brings something for everyone.

 

Ah, my bad. It shouldn't be UL30, I meant the U30JC - haha totally wrong model number. There is a local store with the U30JC and the UL30VT on display side by side, and boy, the difference in thickness is ridiculous. The U30JC looks like two UL30VT's stacked on top of one another.

 

Hold on a minute kimosabe. I wouldn't pull out the wires and chuck my optical drive just yet. Especially if you want to get the best out of the advancements in media. In addition, your "Think Tank" failed to consider one overwhelming element: PRICE!

If all it took was the will to move forward with the latest technology, we'd all be driving zero emissions hydrogen cars and SSDs would be in every computer. After all, those technologies has been around for quite some time now.

Unfortunately, despite it being a 1960's technology, discs are still the most stable and economical way to store and transfer data today. That's why blu-ray technology is being advanced, not discarded. One hundred plus gigabyte discs are just a short time away. And now that 3D is beginning to be taken seriously, the disc's position in the market will only get stronger. If you don't believe me, look to Sony. They bet the farm on it's success.

 

But not every laptop comes with Bluray. The majority of laptops still come with standard DVD drives. Everyone around me has a laptop, but the majority of them say they never used their optical drives.

It is in fact quite rare that people would use high capacity disks on laptops. Watching 1080p movies on a 15" screen is pointless.

As for the price - an internal DVD drive may cost $30, whereas something as simple as an SD card reader could cost only $2 (to the manufacturer). That is also savings that can be passed along to consumers.

Due to their rather large size and fragile nature, optical disks also require larger packaging and hence higher transportation costs. This can also be saved.

I didn't mean to say let's get rid of optical disks in general. Since it is a notebook forum, I implied that it could be removed from the majority of laptops, especially the smaller (15" or less) ones. The vast majority of laptops do not have 3D screens, nor will they in the near (or even distant) future. 13.3", 14.1", and 15.6" notebooks are usually not really meant for watching 3D HD movies. I also know about the 100GB optical disks. That's perfectly fine - for a home entertainment system with a 52" TV.

What I meant to say was, there are so many instances where notebook manufacturers have used between 1/3 to 1/2 of the usable volume in a laptop for an optical drive which many of us hardly ever use. Along with it came overheating issues and greater thickness and weight. I think it is reasonable to suggest we cut the optical drive from many laptops. Realistically, the optical disk is only a means to install programs onto a laptop - which can also be done using cheap flash.

 

That's their loss. Laptops have a variety of uses--not the least of which is as entertainment devices.

Hardly, pointless. In fact, as I stated above, it's quite common.

Don't know of too many CDs/DVDs in that format?

Not a good argument. Laptops are fragile.

Many already have. That doesn't mean there's no use for them

You have no way of knowing that. At present, at least three manufacturers have 3D models in the market.

Again, this is already the solution in many laptops. The entire netbook revolution is predicated on that very premise. Nevertheless, there are many of us that still use optical drive and will continue to do so well into the future.

 

- Saying a glass bottle is more fragile than a rubber flask does not mean the rubber flask is indestructible. Saying an optical disk can be ruined by a single slight scratch whereas a laptop will not does not imply the laptop is indestructible. It is merely a fact that an optical disk is a fragile thing, more so than flash memory. I do not wish to argue this pointless point.

- I have in fact a way of knowing that most laptops today do not have 3D screens. Any reasonable person looking at a store shelf (virtual or physical) can easily tell that 3D capable laptops are just a novelty at the moment. I also do not want to argue this ridiculous point.

- My proposition was for the industry to begin switching to alternate means of storage, not that the switch has already taken place.

- Netbooks are developed primarily to be a cheap, accessible, and very portable solution. It stemmed from Asus' attempt at the OLPC project which didn't meet budget requirements and so instead became the eeePC. The initial target of $100 or less per device was not attainable. Their purpose is NOT principally to get rid of optical drives.


Finally, I hope you will stop this aimless criticism. Your goal does not seem to contribute anything meaningful to a discussion, but rather to downplay others' opinion. You quite blatantly seek to refute every single one of the opinions I have stated through either similarly (or even more) vague and baseless arguments such as "Many already have" back by little logic, or the catch-all phrase "you have no way of knowing that". In fact, I'd like to say the exact same: you ALSO have no way of knowing what you are saying.

 

I've brought this subject up before and got a mixed bag of answers. I think as an external solution, optical drives are still a viable option. Don't forget that until Steam and others of the like, games were all released on CD and DVD. Not to mention movies.
I recently got an external blu-ray burner and I'm loving it. The ability to store up to 50GB per disc is nice considering I had data that spanned multiple DVDs.
My personal opinion is this; I think SD cards are the way to go and if companies would really jump on board this would be a great way to distribute everything, from movies, to games, to operating systems. Like the old days of NES cartridges, that could be adapted to the SD card, so that it's read only permanently.
Secondly, since blu-ray is considered high density for the optical disc format, I think another option would be to migrate over to mini discs while at the same time increasing capacity. That would make them far smaller and easier to transport/store.
But I like that more and more computer manufacturers are opting out of optical drives in their notebooks. As others stated, it gives them the ability to make them smaller and use the space for additional fans/heatsinks. I've learned that the components most likely to fail in a computer are those with moving parts, so moving the optical drive out is a good thing in my opinion.

 

I have no use for optical drives in notebooks anymore since I am served fine by my external Asus drive. Optical drives in notebooks for me are now a turn off from even considering it. Can't say the same for everyone else though.

 

I think flash will have to get a _lot_ cheaper before you can expect it to regularly replace optical drives; if anything, optical drives will be replaced by downloads first, as it has already somewhat become. On the supply end, people are predicting that NAND flash will finally again reach $1 per GB for the first time since 2008 ( NAND Flash Memory Prices to Fall, Report Says - Data Storage from eWeek). Note that this price is on the _supply_ end, not retail. Compare this to a DVD, which at the supply end costs pennies. Or, if you like, compare retail prices. In general, a flash card will cost about double in US dollars its capacity (so a 4 GB flash card will cost about $8). Compare this to buying blank DVDs; if you buy a single blank DVD, it will cost you maybe, oh, $2. That's $2 for over 4 GB of space, making flash cards more than 4 times as expensive. And this is a bit of a worst-case scenario; you can buy 100 count packs of blank DVDs for $25 or less... which just makes the huge price disparity even more obvious.

This is, I admit, less a comment about the viability of removing optical drives from notebooks, than a comment about the viability of flash media replacing optical media at the present time.

 

Yeah, I agree. Flash on a large scale is too expensive right now. Definitely not suitable for replacing high capacity disks.

However, suppose you order a software or a movie from Amazon. $10 shipping. Now, if all they had to do was mail you a flash card in a card size envelope.. I imagine that'd be next to free! That'd be pretty nice indeed.

Don't underestimate the cost of shipping Often times a large chunk of a product's price is S&H.

 

Well, what I meant with SD cards was, using ROM cartridge technology just like those found in the original nintendo and N64 cartridges, with an appropriate controller chip, using modern processes and adapted for SD cards and you could theoretically release full size movies, operating systems, anything you want to be read-only in an SD card format.
For the home user, a mini blu-ray disc (like mini-dvd) with higher capacity than is currently available. I think combined those could be an effective replacement for current optical disc technology.

Imagine something like this in 25GB capacities.

 

Looking at that disk, it does seem like they can be made a lot smaller. I guess something that's true is that a large area on that disk is not usable for data storage (the inside circle). I wonder if they could improve on that somehow.

Fact remains that optical drives are noisy and easily broken. The track on which the read head moves on is exposed and quite fragile. Sometimes the read head can have smudges on it that prevent it from reading correctly. They are also quite prone to other issues (plenty of threads about "can read CDs but not DVD"s, "can't read DVD", etc). Lastly, they are very power consuming: about as much as a HDD under load. All of these problems are eliminated by going to flash..

 

I really do wish more laptops took out the optical drive. I never ever use the ODD when I'm not at my desk, and even then I use it only a few times a year. This is also why the Lenovo X201 is so compelling for me - it nixes the useless ODD and makes use of the space for a great cooling system and powerful full-size components.

I was also very happy that the HP Envy 15 came out as a full-size laptop with no ODD, but instead used the available space for very powerful components and a huge array of ports. I was was waiting to see more similar laptops following soon afterwards, but so far, I've been disappointed.

 

I wish someone would work out a mod to integrate a DIY Vidock in a 12.7mm optical drive bay.

Theres got to be some cards that are small enough.

 

Well, what would be the point of that? The whole goal of ViDock is to get a very powerful GPU and link it to a laptop for use while at the desk. A smaller, less powerful GPU would be like a compromise between performance and portability. But it doesn't matter how unportable the DIY ViDock is, as long as it performs well for stationary use.

 

Certainly, and oftentimes a lot of that "S&H" is profit margin. Whenever I order from Amazon, I almost always get free shipping. This is one of the "traps" of mail and online ordering. Out of that "$10" shipping, maybe "$2" or so is actual shipping costs, the rest is "handling" charge. Why do you think so many of the big places offer free shipping so easily?

The problem is, I'm not sure that ROM memory would be much cheaper than current flash, which brings us right back to the value argument. Another thing I've thought of, since you brought back up the old console cartridges, is how durable the connectors are/would be. I don't think anyone right now uses SD card readers nearly as heavily as they do their ODD just yet, but remembering how hard it was sometimes to get your console to read your cartridge (anyone else remember having to plug in a game half a dozen times before it would load in their Nintendo?) makes me worry just a bit. I'm sure things are better now, but the question becomes just how much better. It may end up being that SD readers and ODDs are just about equally reliable in terms of how easily "broken" they can be.

 

Hmm, well, SD cards are less prone to scratches, etc. But in any case, you could be right about the shipping.

Anyway, I think that ViDock idea has some merit. A mini graphics module could actually work. I think the space is big enough to support a small fan, a small heatsink, and a mid range mobile video card like the HD 5650 or something. That would be pretty slick, since it gives an upgradable option to laptops that were born with only an IGP.

 

As a wine glass more fragile than a tin cup. That does not make it obsolete.

We have two different ideas on what define reasonable. And in case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of "unreasonable" people in Hollywood spending a lot of money producing movies in 3D.

Your tone had a lot more finality than that. Nevertheless, there are two sides to every situation. I merely presented the other one.

Maybe not, but they're the closest approximation you'll get to sustaining your argument. And the only one that can't be argued against.

The fact that you define a counter point as blatant criticism says more to your subjectivity than mine. I'd correctly call it an alternate opinion or a counter opinion. Something I hope most people here appreciate. It's also applied because someone was using an opinion as fact.

In fact my "logic" is incontrovertible; and that's because I do enough research before I post and don't go beyond my limits to validate my data. Again, the overwhelming amount of my statement are gathered through research of the direction of the industry.

In fact, my arguments are legitimate points that are common knowledge to anyone the reads information on the what's happening in the industry. Unlike some contributory who deal in pure speculation, I get my fact directly from the consumer and industry publications.

p.s. If you're right, just you don't have the challenge the individual, Rather, his data or source.

 

I haven't used my optical drive in quite some time.
I'm only forced to use optical media (on rare occasions and other people's computers) because people have a tendency to keep using them over flash drives (primarily out of ignorance).
Seriously though, I've seen people burning 1 MB large file onto a non-RW CD.
Who the heck does that?

Isn't it far simpler to just use an email or an USB flash?
I never use CD's or DVD's to store programs, files or media since I find external HDD or my USB flash drive to be 10x more efficient means of storage and for program installations.

The OP has a pretty good point on adding a second heat sink, or simply using the DVD drive space in a more economical capacity.

 

Krane, sir, I have nothing against an alternate opinion, as long as they are presented in a fashion that does not merely say that my opinions are invalid because you assume that I do not have any basis for them. I have been following the notebook market very closely since 2005 (registered account in 2006 after lurking for a year). The overall trend is that people are relying on large sized physical media less and less (floppy, zip drives, CDs). Once upon a time the only way to buy software was off a shelf, whereas now most software (including even OSes) are available as secure, paid downloads.

I just find it very irritating that, after I make a post, someone comes and says "you have no way of knowing that" without any more concrete proof to just about every second point I make. That makes for a very condescending reply.