Acer P645-SG , LED Screen makes me sick! Help!

I didn't know where to post this so I put it here, I hope you guys can help me.

Before I start I've always become nauseous / sea sick when I'm under LED or fluorescent light, think supermarket lights etc.

Anyway just purchased a brand new Acer P645-SG, I was initially so pleased with it, ticked absolutely all my boxes especially battery life, I was overjoyed until after a few days use.

The LED backlit screen is making me extremely nauseous and sick, even with 15 minutes only of use, I have installed flux to no avail. All my other screens are CCFL.

What is funny is that I didn't have this effect with the ASUS UX303LN which I used briefly had a glossy screen but also LED. I do find the 14" matte screen on the P645 a little fuzzy and grainy, so I'm unable to tell if it's the LED light or the fuzzy 1080p panel.

Has anyone experienced this with the Acer, I don't know what to do, really don't want to have to return it?

Any help would be appreciated! I'm thinking about triyng to install an illumshield filter for blue light, maybe that will help!

 

Try some other modern machines and try a matte screen as well. The matte screens tend to be easier on eyes for many and fewer headaches. Hard to find a CCFL backlit machine newer than Core 2 Duo or which handles more than 4 GB of RAM. See if you can try some business class machines with matte screens, one of my colleagues can't stand glossy LED screens. He gets headaches with the ones we've had at work. He uses ThinkPads and Latitudes without issues at work, and he uses them at home too.

 

The P645 screen is matte, and it's a business class machine. I do find the screen somewhat blurry, I was thinking of applying a blue light filter to it which makes it glossier, maybe this will help?

 

Try f.lux, though I doubt that it would help (it reduces the blue light, but the flicker would still be there). If the LED irritates you that much, then you need a PWM-free machine*. Check this link. Hope that it helps.

*To be honest I'm not very sure how LED machines control the backlight, since I think that there's no unique solution for the task (as you can see from the list). That's why your best bet is to change your laptop, otherwise a display swap would've fix the issue.

 

OP already tried that "to no avail".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I've narrowed the issue down, would really appreciate your thoughts and knowledge!

The panel on the P645-SG is an AUO113D, this is quite a common panel used in many laptops Gigabyte P34G. Dell E7440, Alienware 14, etc, so clearly the problem is not going away if I buy another laptop, and I'd very much like to keep the P645-SG since I believe it to be excellent in every single way.

What's more I've also discovered that the AUO113D screen is PWM free so clearly the problem is not the PWM flicker, please see the following article under display stating it's PWM free:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-TravelMate-P648-M-757N-Notebook-Review.167637.0.html

There are two things I immediately notice, that is I find the screen very bright like a blue light bright and also very fuzzy, it makes me sick to look at it, this is because of the matte coating which really makes everything look fuzzy.

Have a look at the following thread:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/latitude-7450-owners-thread.768769/page-39

This is exactly what I've noticed and what appears to be making me sick and here is the problem again:

http://en.community.dell.com/owners-club/alienware/f/3746/t/19611355

Since I really want to stick with the P645-SG I wanted to ask you all two questions.

1) If I put a glossy screen filter on will it sharpen up the image or is there no way given the matte coating underneath? I want to put an occushield blue light filter on any laptop I buy and they happen to have a gloss finish. Perhaps this will deal with the whole problem.

2) Failing that and finding that this AUO113D screen exists everywhere would I be able to replace the screen with another 14" display from another make? It has a 30pin edp connection and horizontal mounting holes. (I would actually love a 1600x900 screen if this is possible).

 

That's the reason I linked a list, since just getting a random laptop might give you even worse end-result. Anyway, as you said, your problem might not be the back-light, but the AntiGlare filter/coating.

IMO forget filters, they would make things worse for you. You can remove the AG coating on your current display (which would make it glossy), but that's relatively risky (make a search, there are tons of guides).

You can change it with a lower res one easily, pick the one that suits you most, just don't forget to compare the size and the connector with your current one (not sure which one exactly is the one in your machine). If you decide to go the panel exchange way, ask the seller prior purchase for EXACT part number, otherwise in most cases they ship compatible, which is not what you want.

 

@thrombox use f.lux to adjust color temperature and thus counter blue tint. I suggest 3400K both day and night, to see immediate effect. It helped me reduce eye-strain and made my experience great in similar situation. However, when I moved to another machine with well-calibrated screen, I stopped using it - so changing the display is even better option.

 

I used the f.lux it made little difference, it's the matte fuzz with the strong light that makes me sick.

Triturbo thank you, thank you so much! I personally think 1080p is too much for a 14" screen so I would love to go down to 900p and I'd be worried about doing the AG mod since I'm not good as such stuff. My screen from that list is the B140HAN01.1 / AUO113D 2 lane edp.

From the 900p (I'm actually thinking of going down to 768 to be honest) list do you have any idea of a screen that is low brightness, no pwm and slightly glossy (with the best colours possible)(Is IPS only for 1080p and bigger)? I can't stand those very high gloss screens, my current screen on the old Toshiba I'm using is glossy but only slightly gloss, the touch screen on the UX303LN was impossibly glossy for example.

I would be ok with a matte coating but not the really strong AG fuzz. What is strange is I have old AG matte CCFL monitors at home and the fuzz doesn't seem to make me sick on them, although I must admit they are not too fuzzy like the one on the P645-SG!

Finally why not the occushield filter? It's a blue light filter so I'd imagine it'd help me quite a bit with these high brightness LED screens. When I hear about Macbook Retina LED books I think yea "burnt out retinas for sure!".

 

With the shift to 16:9, the only premium panels were FullHD ones (and above). I'm not aware of good panel that is lower res. What I mean is, you wont only downgrade the resolution, but also picture quality (e..g. color reproduction, viewing angles). You can't upgrade to 2560x1440 either (it would scale perfectly to 1280x720 but the panel would be WAY better than whatever is available at that res (1366x768)), since it requires 4lane eDP. All in all, if you want the same picture quality, find the LG panel's part number and see if it suits you better, otherwise you are in for quite the downgrade.

 

I've got 1080p on my 16.4" Sony VGN-FW51JF screen and that's as high a resolution as I'd like to go on a screen this size, so 14" is really eye strain territory. It's a FHD LCD 2-CCFL glossy screen.

I'm not sure if it's a TN panel, is TN only for LED? Anyway I'm quite happy with it if it is TN. I don't need the super bright IPS screen with the view angles, they just hurt my eyes.

So I think going down to 900p for a 14" at least is a sensible idea. Also sticking on the blue fitler occushield thingy and hoping that's it's not too glossy!

 

Sony usually puts pretty nice displays in their machines, and the one you have being 2CCFL means it most likely is wide gamut. Your current display is wide gamut as well, so you'll definitely notice the difference if you downgrade. TN and IPS are panel technologies, LED and CCFL are back-light. They can be either - TN with CCFL or LED and IPS with CCFL or LED.

It's not the viewing angles of IPS that hurt your eyes, it's either the LED back-light or the matte/AntiGlare coating.

All of the listed 900p displays are with AG filter, just be careful with the thickness, since yours is slim. I'm not very certain that you'll find suitable display, but feel free to try your luck.

 

How depressing, is that a comprehensive list? I find it difficult to believe that absolutely no one made a decent glossy TN screen, at 900p or one at 768p. I was thinking of even using 30 to 40 pin converters and such to achieve this.

I have no issue with not having wide angle so I think TN would be good for me also I understand it's not as bright, the IPS is painfully bright.

Another screen I'm using on my even older laptop my A100-159 can be found here. Is this a TN panel? If so I'm very very happy with it, and it's only slightly glossy.

 

Sadly, there's no ~14"+900p in glossy, but there are a few glossy 768p panels, but these are truly atrocious . The Chi-Mei Innolux N140BGE-EB3 would work (and is dirt-cheap). A terrible display to be sure, but at least no allergic reaction to the AG-filter.

Think you're better off with removing the AG layer of the current panel, as triturbo suggested (first order the EB3 as a backup plan). It isn't that difficult, really, but you do have to take is very slowly; don't think ' hey, it's going nice, let's pull a bit faster!'. Haste will see the polariser layer being ripped off as well, leaving a solid white image behind (*ahem* ). Just in case you're wondering; the 900p AGs are god-awful too. That hasn't got anything to do with being TNs (there are very good TNs available), but just because they're being used in cheap laptops and having antiglare.

Btw, your B140HAN01.1 isn't PWM-free, but it uses a 10,000 Hz refresh cycle which is at the higher end of the range; at most it's 20KHz, but low-end is merely 1,000 Hz, so this is a pretty good panel in itself if it weren't for the terrible AG filter. They've probably used one that's too rough/grainy for the high dpi (dots/inch) this panel has, which will cause that 'shimmering effect'. Either way, take care to use full brightness all the time when you're actually sensitive to pwm:

Spoiler: PWM cycles and flicker

Instead, adjust the image setting using the video driver settings or resort to tools like DimScreen which will draw a software-type filter over the display, leaving pwm at 100%, yet still dimming the screen.

It is, probably the LP154W01-TLD4. It's also a CCFL, so no issues with pwm period.

Purely technical-wise it is possible to have eDP+CCFL, but there's only three known panels that have this anachronistic combination, all of them external monitors. Must say that LM300WQ5-SDA1 looks like a dream; 30" + 2560×1600 (which is perfect at that size, imo) + 16:10 + no-pwm + 10-bit colour. It was used in the Dell U3011 Ultrasharp. It's an IPS, not TN and like triturbo explained; the IPS/TN and WLED/CCFL technologies are distinct form one another. The former relates to the RGB pixels (the actual screen) and the latter to the backlight that boosts the RGB pixels to something that's bright enough to actually see without needing a flashlight. Think of it as a projector forcing a white, high-energy beam through celluloid; the colour on the celluloid (= RGB pixels) is amplified by the bulb (= backlight).

Another alternative is a different laptop, one that uses LVDS instead of eDP. There's still some modern, powerful systems available (or recently available) that use(d) LVDS. Only thing that's missing then is a CCFL display (they'll all be WLED out of the factory) and dyi-ing a source for the variable ~9-21V backlight power for the CCFL inverter. You could use the eDP cable's backlight pins for this. Problem is that they won't supply enough watts to power a CCFL (an equivalent WLED consumes less power), so it'd be a fair bit dimmer. Also, there's no way to control brightness; the CCFL uses voltage control for that (which is what we're after) and the WLED system only has pwm control available (unless it's a CCR-type, which it won't be). A rheostat would work, but all-in-all it's a fairly esoteric mod requiring a high level of technical know-how and experience.

 

Thanks t456 I appreciate the long post.

I think I can pretty much give up the CCFL laptop dream and in all other aspects I love the P645-SG.

Given any 768p screen in glossy is truly atrocious. Are there any 14" 768p or 900p high gamut good TN LED screens with no pwm and the AG filter which I can then take off? Can I get this professionally done?

The B140HAN01.1 also has a 3H hard coating I have no idea what it is, I'm also wondering whether or not

You are right I think this is exactly what's going on and I also think the IPS screen is far too bright (300cd/m3) and it's the grainiest panel I've ever seen.

 

As I said only FullHD (and above) received "premium panel" treatment. There were quite a few 16:10 displays that got this premium treatment no matter the resolution, mostly thanks to Sony and Apple (although the Apple versions had proprietary connectors). So again, if you want nice display, either remove the AG, or find the LG panel, otherwise everything else would be a downgrade.

Small correction - the cheapest/worst implementation ones drop to 200Hz and that's where headaches start. It is considered that above 1500Hz the LED flicker is bearable.

 

Thanks, I stand corrected . Hadn't seen a 200 Hz before, but you're right; compared specification sheets of nearly 50 panels and found a Chi Mei N173O6-L02 which uses 230 Hz and also a panel that runs 120 Hz when in 3D-mode:

Spoiler: PWM frequencies

The value of concern is ' maximum', since you'd usually run the panel at 100% brightness. Any dimming, if required, could be done with better solutions than pwm. Only disadvantage then is higher battery drain (since the panel's backlight will still run at full-power), which is the only benefit of pwm. Of course, the same power saving are accomplished when using voltage control with ccfl, so ... really, pwm is mostly a cost-saving measure since the alternative ccr method for led backlights would've been more expensive. This is one example of the fine-print that ' new tech ≠ better tech'; some are only to the advantage of the manufacturer, not the consumer. Unless they pass on the savings to said consumer, but ... well ... .

Nothing like the fhd options; none were up to par. Not aware of a service that will do ag-removal for you, but it can't hurt to google. Could also buy a defective panel for $10 and practise on that, doesn't matter whether it's matte or glossy; both have a protective layer, the glossy version simply being smooth/grainless.

That's the protective finish, see pencil hardness (H-rating) and a 7H Thoughbook panel for comparison. Both antiglare and glossy panels will have one; it protects the polariser (also a thin sheet) and lcd behind that from accidental force.

Stripping the AG strips the 3H along with it since it's part of the same sheet. It can't do harm as long as you're a bit careful with the screen afterwards. Cleaning with a damp cloth is fine, but don't use paper towels (wood fibres) or poke at it with a pencil. It's also possible to buy a clear+3H film sheet to re-apply to the unprotected screen after removing the ag layer. This is a tedious procedure unless you have access to a clean-room; dust is trapped easily underneath the 3H sheet so you'll then have to pull it free a little, clean and re-apply. May take a while before it's perfect. Wouldn't bother, really; the image will be even better without any sheet standing in the light's path, even if it's a clear film.

 

Yep I did understand that, but if premium panel treatment means IPS I'm ok without that. Is LG the best make to go for 900p or 768p?

I find the IPS is too bright and I don't need wide viewing angles, in fact I'd prefer to not have them for privacy, so as all my old screens are TN I don't see why I would need to upgrade to IPS.

I'm a little confused but are you saying my old Toshiba A100-159 CCFL TN gloss screen is better than the current 14" TN LED offerings? Clearly then I'd have the same problem with any 14" laptop.that I'd be able to buy today.

If I have 2 edp lanes connector can I connect a 1 edp lane? Is more better?

Still really confused over which 768p or 900p panel to get.

How about putting on the occushield blue filter that I'd like to put on? Instead of a clear + 3H film?

 

Not only IPS, just genuinely better product that goes beyond the - there is a picture on the display, deal with it. It usually means better colors (combination of factors - panel type, color depth, back-light type) and better viewing angles (really expensive TNs or IPS/IPSlike). The first is because it's display, this is what it's supposed to do and better so when premium, the second - because you don't want the colors to vary from one angle to another. So premium panels usually are both things not one or another.

That really is up to you, but again nowadays you either get "all" or nothing, where all is in quotes because quite a few sacrifices are made. Before, you can get variety of products, there were premium TNs, as well as a few IPSes, but they were top-notch and the usual run-of-the-mil TNs. Nowadays most IPSes are the cheapest possible and worse than some TNs of old and TNs are well, not worse but not better either than what was used before in the cheaper models. Even the top-of-the-line ones got a downgrade, like DreamColor and PremiumColor (laptop) models that are 8bit WLED IPS now, where they used to be 10bit RGB LED IPS before.

I'm not saying that your Toshiba is better than all 14" TN LEDs. There are 60% NTSC 14" TN LEDs, and your Toshiba most likely is 45% since this was and still is the norm for most laptops. It would be easier on the eyes that's for sure, because of the way CCFLs work. So better is kinda relative.

Yes you can, the other way is (usually) impossible (2 -> 4), since the board (usually) is not designed for such output. That's of course as long as they have the same pin count - the missing lane would be unpopulated. That's how it was with LVDS.

The panel game is like this - read the specs, make sure you get the exact part number from the seller and see the end result. I've played that game quite a few times. There's no easy, nor cheap way around that, sorry. Well, you can go around and hope that you'll find a 14" laptop with 900p or 768p display and see if it suits you (the display, not the laptop itself and then try to find the P/N). That's one way to reduce your spending.

I for one usually don't run at 100% brightness, that's why the backlight matters for me. I'm not sure how 8740w controls the back-light but the DreamColor (LP171WU8-SLB1) is a bit harder on the eyes at lower brightness levels than the nonDC WUXGA (LP171WU7-TLB1). Can't find a definite answer on the range of the DreamColor, but in the specs it is mentioned (note - mentioned) that it is between 200 and 1000Hz. There was an user that shot the display with his Pro camera, did some math and said that each color (RGB) is shooting/working ~400Hz making it ~1200Hz total. The nonDC is listed as 200 to 1700Hz in the data sheet. Finer control and/or higher values in the corresponding brightness levels? That would explain the difference. Also to note both are around that 1500Hz mark, and I am more and more inclined that if you want a less aggressive display, you really want it to be at least 1000Hz.

 

Ok well I've decided I should go for a 900p TN panel, one with low light, no pwm and half decent colours. I will be doing my search accordingly.

Interestingly I think some of the newer P648 models are getting glossy touchscreens at 1080p. Maybe there are some decent glossy 1080p 14" TN screens.

t456 where did you get those PWM stats?

 

From the data sheet of each panel. As I said, not an easy nor cheap game (not only the panel costs money, but the data sheets as well). Just to remind you - you want Slim panel <3.2mm ("Shape Style" field). You can try and Google the P/N + pdf (i.e. HSD140PNW1-B00 pdf) and find a free data sheet of said panel. Good luck!

 

triturbo and everyone thank you so much I really appreciate it. When I get around to doing it and picking the right screen I'll certainly come here for a 2nd opinion.

It should be noted that I have to do this upgrade (downgrade) whatever laptop I choose since I cannot take an IPS AG screen. This article illustrates the issue I have (if you look at the panel manufacturing trends paragraph) ideally an AMVA style screen would be the one I want. I cannot take the IPS AG fuzz

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_coating.htm

Secondly I'd prefer a TN screen for the privacy I get, I don't need wide viewing angles. Also for screen movements I understand IPS is inferior.

Luckily there are a few TN panels that although 1080p are glossy without the AG filter.

To note I'm after low brightness, no pwm, preferrably TN, preferrably good colours if possible, preferrably 900p but not absolutely (I might settle for 1080p reluctantly), and preferrably gloss but a light matte would be acceptable.

If I can't find a suitable 900p or 1080p panel I may try to strip the AG myself on a 900p panel.

I've been looking at the following 900p panel. Brightness is 250, contrast is high, have never heard of CPT however.

http://www.panelook.com/CLAA140UA01 CN_CPT_14.0_LCM_overview_25854.html

 

How comprehensive is that list on panelook.com?

Because I appear to have found what I've been looking for.

Here is a slim 14" Chimei Innolux N140FGE-E32, it's in Poland where I currently fly out every few weeks.

It's 14", 900p and as you can see in the photo glossy

http://www.sklep.northservice.pl/matryce/615-matryca-led-hb140wx1-400-slim-glare-nowa.html

I can't tell how many channels it requires, or whether or not it has pwm or not:

http://www.panelook.com/N140FGE-E32_Innolux_14.0_LCM_overview_20467.html

Oh and what do the percentages mean for antiglare?

For example haze 25%?

 

Oh and I tried to sign up to panel look to get at some datasheets, only to find to do that I have to spend 1000 or more dollars, that's a lot.

 

Please ignore my two last posts above, that screen is too thick.

I believe I have found the right screen it is the:

LTN140KT14-401 Samsung panel, the link is here

It's 900p 14" and has a 25% haze, which I believe means it's a semi gloss type of screen, which would be perfect.

I'm trying to find a datasheet for it to find out the pwm. If anyone would be able to help me with this I would very much appreciate it! Still searching.

Also is it ok to put a 1 lane screen on a 2 lane connection? (It's a 1 lane screen).

 

I'm not aware of anyone around here who's thrown a grand on it either. As I think I said earlier - Google, if it doesn't come up, bad luck. The lanes shouldn't matter in downgrades. At least usually. It's best to get your current and your future panel's schematics and compare them pin by pin. Otherwise, if they share the same connector it is safe to assume that they are wired the same. Good luck.

 

For anyone reading who needs some closure, I managed to solve the issue.

Yes I do get PWM sickness but that actually wasn't the direct problem, it was the aggressive AG layer on a strong IPS screen resulting in a very strong fuzz. this was making me sick.

I just swapped panels with a TN 900p AUO matte screen with max 10.000pwm, yes the colours are slightly worse, but the screen is night and day in terms of fuzz, I no longer get sick.

Ideally I believe I require glossy panels which would mean having to go back up to 1080p on a 14" screen.

Data sheet info I found at datasheetspdf.com very helpful website..

 

I had an issue with florescent lights when I was using. My eye doctor told me I needed special glasses with a slightly pink tint. Maybe that will help? Also try a pair of Gunnar glasses worth a shot l.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

 

Hi Triturbu and Thrombox,
thank you very much for this thread.
I really hope that you can answer some follow up questions, since It appears to be that I'm having a near identical complaints as thrombox described, and it's also likely possible that i'm sensitive to different lightning conditions.

It's the third laptop that I'm having this problems with, and for a few weeks now I've been trying hard to identify the problem. now i've been given an option to swap the screen under dell's warranty, but I'm not sure if this solution will help to eliminate the problem (and if I'll swap the screen I'll get stuck with this laptop and won't be able to swap it back).

I have the dell latitude 3550. It has a decent wide view FHD anti-glare screen with good colors and contrast. dell implemented a panel with no model name (Samsung sdc4c48 156hl). it's hard to day but it might be the same one found also in Alienware 15 and dell latitude e5550.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Alienware-15-Notebook-Review.136667.0.html

it's a 300 nits panel, with grainy anti-glare coating and it uses PWM, in an unknown frequency.

in short, this screen really makes me sick. It feels too bright at all brightness levels, I notice a shiny sparkle, haze & blur. the AG seems very grainy and I also notice like a reflection of black horizontal stripes, which I guess might have something to do with PWM.

After a long research It came to mind that I'm suffering from a combination of the hard coating AG and PWM. I couldn't find out any other reasons to explain my eye fatigue.

1. Besides the AG coating and the pwm, can you think of any other parameter of the screen/laptop that could have been the cause for this kind of eye fatigue?

2. What does 25% haze mean?

3. If the laptop uses PWM for sure, is it at all possible to eliminate the problem by replacing the panel (in order to achieve the right PWM frequency (1500+)? Or are there different ways in which the laptop controls the backlight, that aren't related to the panel?
Anyway to know for sure?

Thank you for your help

 

No, unless the panel were defective.

Apart from the panel itself; cheap, low-frequency ballasts in tube lighting are disastrous ...

That signifies the strength of the AG filter; 25% of the surrounding, external light is diffused, rather than being reflected back. The 25% is at the lower end of the range, while 80% is about the maximum. Unfortunately, the AG is indiscriminate; both external and internal light travels through the filter and is affected by its graininess. It's this that causes the sheen and a more probable cause for eye-strain than merely pwm on its own.

It is pwm-only, simply because that's what the current panel uses (like 99.99% of all current laptops). The alternative would be direct voltage control (such as with ccfl) or some hybrid method for led backlight control (used in some EIZO monitors).

The current panel is probably the LTN156HL02-201 (on the left), due to the 'HL' in the model name and the 25% antiglare. This panel already uses 1,000 Hz (at 50% brightness) to 2,000 Hz (100%). There's not many compatible lcds with similar characteristics, but that LP156WF8-SPA1 and LTN156HL06-C01 would do nicely. The latter is exactly the same screen as the current 201, except for lacking the antiglare sheet (and will best the 201, simply for having no ag). Since Dell offered to swap it; the C01 would be straightforward and they should have them in stock.

Before calling them, do try out a glossy laptop (or monitor) first and see if that actually makes an improvement. Also pen down the model nr., so it'll be possible to check out its pwm range as well.

Btw, there's something else to consider with pwm beyond solely the maximum Hz value:

Code:

PWM 0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19
10  ON  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  ON  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --
20  ON  --  --  --  --  ON  --  --  --  --  ON  --  --  --  --  ON  --  --  --  --
30  ON  --  --  --  ON  --  --  ON  --  --  ON  --  --  --  ON  --  --  ON  --  --
40  ON  --  ON  --  --  ON  --  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  --  ON  --  --  ON  --
50  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --
60  --  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON  --  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON
70  --  ON  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  --  ON  ON
80  --  ON  ON  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  ON  ON
90  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  --  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  --
100 ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON  ON

What that means is that at 100% you have the most stable image, even if too bright. At 50% you have only half the effective frequency, but at least at a nice, predictable pattern. Would guess a lot of the intermediate values to be the most strenuous. If brightness at 100% is too much, then it'd be preferable to use the graphics driver or a software overlay (such as DimScreen) and leave pwm at maximum.

There's nothing like CCFL though; my ancient Dell D800 has a 13-year old 1920x1200 ccfl than can run at 185 Hz lcd refresh + backlight at 20 KHz + 16:10 + IPS-like viewing angles. Could modify it to make it run on a modern laptop, but don't have a 15.x" system <- well ... maybe a 15.0" Series 9, but that'd be a bit much, especially when fitting the edp->lvds board.

 

thank you i won't try ccfl because i already have too much experience, seriously.
i changed the brightness settings in intel graphics to default and tried DIMSCREEN (because i found that lowering the brightness in intel graphics affects the image quality). it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. i think that there is pwm at 100% brightness as well (according to UFO PWM test - i saw few seperate lines). weirdly enough, now i see like semi-clear white wide lines (like shelves) on a white blank page, instead of the semi-clear black wide lines.
so again, no idea if it's PWM or AG or both or what.

1. one thing that i don't understand. i saw a bunch of laptop reviews that stated that the screen is pwm free. does it refers to certain frequencies?

2. i would rather have a good AG screen because i don't handle glossy too well. my previous laptop (dell e5570) came with a great AG screen (again an unknown panel, probably au optronics b156han01.1, although it is labeld as b156hw01.1. if i could have this panel it would be perfect really. how can i know that this screen would be suitable?

3. seconed, if PWM is a part of the problem, i should be looking for a panel that has high lowest frequency (above 1500)? that's all there is to it, nothing can interval from the laptop side?

i'm going to have a hard time explaining the dell's representative that i need a different panel, but i hope to have some knowledge in case that i'll choose to swap the panel on my own. thanks again

 

The panel's specs are not mandatory and the laptop can drive the panel differently, that's why I was really happy when the PWM tests were introduced in the reviews. This way you can definitely know how certain machine with certain panel performs. It still can't beat the real-life experience though, but it's definitely MILES away from the blind shopping that was before. What I would suggest is to check the reviews, see which models that you like have PWM above 1500Hz (they usually measure them at half brightness, if not, the setting is stated) and then try to find a place where you can see it in person. It's quite a bit of work to do, but if you are that sensitive, I don't think there's other way around it. Swapping panels, where the machine is the one to blame, wont improve your situation.

The only other factor that contributes to the viewing (dis)pleasure is the ambient lighting. I would pull a wild guess and say that you have CCFL lighting, correct?

 

thanks it's near impossible to find a show room where i live. by now i only had to return 3 laptops, and i have no idea if my problem is with the Led PWM (are there different types of led?), or the grainy AG or something else. but anyway it's a real mess because the only option i have is to swap the panel under dell's warranty or without it, because my other option is to yet again buy a laptop, without knowing upfront what panel it has (and the law here doesn't allow to return a laptop after you turn it on), so it's always a gamble.

regarding CCFL - i had two latitude E5570. one had a great panel (wled wide-view Au optronics b156hw01 v.1 / b156han - there is a mixup with the panel name). the other e5570 came with a different IPS panel from LG that gave me the same eye fatigue that i'm experiencing with the current samsung panel (sdc4c48 156hl).

so again, a few questions:
1. basically, the PWM depends on the laptop, but it's limited to the panel's minimum frequency? can you be more specific on how it works?

2. i can't identify the samsung panel that is installed in mine (notebookcheck lists another panel - LG Philips LP156WF6 [version unknown]). how to make sure that a panel will work for my laptop without removing the panel?

3. if i'm having trouble both with gloss and grainy AG, what types of panels are there to aim for?

 

The B156HAN01.1 would be compatible, the B156HW01 V1 would not; it has an LVDS interface and you'd need eDP. Summary of things to look for:

• backlight (WLED or CCFL)
• interface (eDP or LVDS)
• pin count (30, 40 or 50)
• number of lanes or channels (1, 2 or 4)
• pin pitch (0.4mm or 0.5mm)
• lcd input voltage (3.3V or 5V)
• connector location (bottom left or bottom right)
• mounting type (screws or double-sided tape)

That's about it for all run-of-the-mill consumer systems, some exotic variants notwithstanding. Resolution does not matter; that what the lane count (eDP) or channel count (LVDS) are for.

I'd wager it really was the HW; it's a TN, not an IPS, and these have much shorter response times, being easier on the eyes. They're also quite different panels, but Dell mixes and matches different types in the same series of laptop. Here it's an LVDS vs. eDP as well (data protocol), but they have also used CCFL and LED types in the same model, which makes a world of difference and both of these alternatives need a different motherboard. This, of course, makes panel reviews somewhat hit-and-miss, considering the exact model you'll receive is the result of a lottery.

Suppose you could look for a DreamColor system (triturbo has one, smugly pointing out that fact ... and rightly so). These have RGB backlights, rather than WLED (white-only), run over LVDS and should be fatigue-free, for all intents and purposes. That does mean buying either used or NOS since they're all discontinued. Even if previous gen., they're still quite powerful, being premium, top-of-the-line models when they came out. See ZBook 15 DreamColor and EliteBook 8770w DreamColor for examples. The 8770w is actually still sold 'new' on Amazon and without discount to boot, presumably because they were deemed too expensive to let go for less.

 

thank you very much and sorry for the hassle. i did my best to summarize. I wasn't aware that dell might use different motherboards. is it likely to happen on the same model (all my models were fhd, non-touch).
your summary of what to look for is based on latitude 3550, right?

meanwhile I think that i'll skip the dreamcolor because both models are too heavy. what are the advantages of dreamcolor technology. why is it fatigue free (and what relation does it have to PWM and AG).

I think that i'll try to replace the panel under dell's warranty, but the only thing that i'm still not sure of is the PWM factor. If i'm also sensitive to PWM, then according to triturbu, it might not help to replace the panel.
maybe there's a way around it? (like making sure that the new panel will have minimum of 1500 frequency?).

all in all, now i'm aimed into finding this specific panel that I had in the latitude e5570. so it would be great if I could confirm that it's possible to install the same panels in both e5570 and 3550.

1. according to ebay and another site, they botth use eDP. regarding my latitude 3550: I don't know the exact panel that is currently installed. for this model It appears that there might be 2 similar (fhd, ips, ag) and suitable panels with a difference is eDP 1.3 vs 1.2. do I need to take it under consideration?

https://www.parts-people.com/index.php?action=item&id=20237
https://www.parts-people.com/index.php?action=item&id=20235

2. I can't identify the model name of the good panel that is installed in the e5570 (there is some kind of a mixup. i'm not sure that the 2012 Auo b156hw01 v.1 (TN) is the one that was installed in the latitude e5570).

I found this thread here that explains the mixup, but frankly I don't know what to read from that (it's the bottom message on the page, and it continue to the next page).

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...splays-compendium.755626/page-38#post-9738452

.

 

For some reason B156HAN01.1 reports as B156HW01 V1 in HWinfo and Device manager.

 

Right.

No problem, it's backward compatible.

That's very much possible; HWiNFO, Device Manager and every other piece of software pulls this value directly from the panel's edid or indirectly via the registry. Flash a different name to the panel and it'll designate itself as such, permitting things like undoing panel whitelisting and transforming non-gsync panels into gsync panels, as if by magic. A difference like eDP and LVDS does not matter when it concerns the edid (the rest of the lcd's firmware handles that), so these can be cross-flashed with impunity.

Now, of course, a sticker is also merely that. So ... neither method is 100% full-proof when identifying the panel; perhaps the seller merely slapped on that HAN because it was what the customer ordered. For absolute certainty; look at the panel's pcb, since that will be marked with the genuine panel number. Some boards are directly visible, others have a transparent, plastic, sticky wrapper and some are opaque, like with the parts-people images. Simply pull it loose, pen down the nr. and tuck the wrapper back in place.

If that's too much effort then sail by the sticker and hope it's accurate.

 

thanks allalan and t456!
i didn't get the part on "whitelisting". is it directly relevant to my problem?
i'll try to ask dell to replace my panel to the AUO panel, and hope that dell aren't using different AUO panels in the FHD AG version of the dell E5570.

just in case - this is the current information i got from a user that has the dell e5570:

latest version of Moninfo reports:
Manufacturer............. AUO
Plug and Play ID......... AUO11ED
Data string.............. R9P60�B156HAN [*CCP437]
Serial number............ n/a
Manufacture date......... 2014, ISO week 0

(back when i had the e5570, hwinfo reproted: AUO11ED, b156hw01 v.1 / b156han, part number - R9P60, eDP 1.3).

since i'm replacing the panel in my latitude 3550, and since my eye fatigue is seemed to be related to PWM and/or AG coating, i hope to assume that there's nothing else on the laptop's hardware that can affect the viewing comfort except of PWM. please correct me if i'm wrong. (i will try to check it myself, but i guess that there's not big difference in the refresh rate on both panels discussed here (pls vs ahva).

if the desired panel is indeed the b156han01.1, than in the PDF the Backlight input signal characteristics are:
PWM Input Frequency --- (symbol) FPWM DUTY --- MIN 200hz Typ 1k hz MAX 10k hz
https://www.touchandscreen.de/mediafiles/Datasheets/AUO/B156HAN01.1.pdf


also, can anyone elaborate on how the pwm is controlled by the laptop's hardware and how it's controlled by the panel itself?
is there any way to know the given PWM frequency (controlled by the laptop's hardware) in my latitude 3550?

 

bycicl got your pm.

All I can tell you is that I get the problem when PWM is low and also if the AG layer is too grainy, I don't do well with IPS and AG.

I don't seem to get the problem with a glossy screens unless the PWM is low. That said there was just something making me very sick with the original IPS screen.

Trouble is now I'd like to go with a 14" glossy screen with better colours 900p and I don't want to go up to 1080p in such a small 14" screen.

P.S. Zenobia glasses do not work for me neither did anything like blue light filters or f.lux