An inovative Idea for notebook cooling

I am pretty sure everyone here knows that heat for notebooks are terrible and its usualy a battle that we cant win. Even with the "notebook coolers" out in the market they seem to have little to no effect on the heat created by the notebook.

I believe we should instead of using passive fans to cool a notebook we should use Peltier Junction Thermoelectric effect and just take the heat from one side of the notebook to the other side of the notebook cooler pad. I believe this would reduce noise and reduce temperatures to a passive level and power consumption would not be a problem.

I dont believe condensation will be an issue also because the heat transfered from one side of the board to the other side of the notebook cooler will cause enough of a difference for condensation.

well thats just my thought if anyone has comments or ideas leave a note

BTW. Peltier Junction is basicaly heat transfer from one area to another area
link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect

 

Why do you believe we should use peltier instead of passive cooling? Do you have evidence that traditional notebook coolers are inadequate? Please describe what you mean by the term "passive fans"??

How would this reduce noise? You'll have even more heat to move, but instead of being on the notebook, it'll be on the hot side of the peltier. How do you propose to move that heat if not with noisy fans?

Why do you believe power consumption will not be a problem? How much power does your proposed solution consume? Peltiers consume a LOT of power.

How will you avoid the problem of condensation and/or frost?

I think maybe you have some more homework to do. A lot more.

 

I was under the impression that current cooling methods just took advantage of radiation and conduction phenomena of heat. Heatsinks conducting heat with a fan to blow air against it, creating a gradient from hot to cold. The main problem with heat in computers is the interface between the heatsink and components themselves at the molecular level, which is addressed by thermal paste.

In order to moving heat from cold to hot requires a huge amount of energy and won't happen by itself. (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) The additional work by itself would be contributing to the heat issue. Moreover, an efficiency of 5-10% of a Carnot refrigerator doesn't sound very good.

Don't take it personally. I still admire your creativity.

 

Another question: How do you propose the mount the peltier device to the notebook? A peltier requires a solid physical interface with no air-gap, implying a permanent or semi-permanent attachment, along with all the equipment to cool the peltier's hot side....

 

I say try it! If it does not work, oh well

 

first off, fan cooling is considered "active cooling". passive is without fans. like a large heat sink where the heat can just dissipate.

your idea is good, but it requires energy and is only 10% efficient. that might be an obstacle for you.

but seriously, make one and report back.

 

thanks, for the redefinition sorry if that caused anyone to flame me >.<, this idea wouldnt be like a portable notebook cooler because it would have to run on a stand alone powersupply, also because it would need to dissipate the heat i would have to design this notebook cooler to be angular and have heat sinks at the bottom. As for frost and condensation i would need to have silica beads at the top or the bottom. As for a solid physical lock between the device and the notebook i might have to either have some kind of locking hinge to bind then notebook and the cooler together..

I think this idea is worth looking into thanks for the support and any other ideas would be awesome

Yes i do recognize this would actualy more heat, but the heat wouldnt be directed at the notebook, the heat generated by the notebook and the notebook cooler would be transfered to the back end of the notebook cooler. While the back would get mildy warm the notebook would stay cool in theory..

Sorry if this sounds farched i had a dream about it at 2 am and i decided to write this down lol so please understand i havent gotten this down solid yet

 

The use of thermoelectric cooling requires more heat to be eliminated from the system. Aside from that, it also requires far more power than conventional cooling systems...we're talking about a order of magnitude here. Why anyone would put a thermoelectric device that generates enormous heat and uses up huge amounts of power into a portable machine that's already heat and power constrained is beyond me.

 

it would be for desktop use. so like a docking station type thing could incorporate it. its not for portability. it would be plugged in.

i say, crunch some numbers and if the numbers are viable, make a design, and if thats viable, make one. then report back.

 

How is that even going to work though? Do you have to open up the CPU bay to install the thermoelectric cooler every time you dock? Because you certainly can't take the TEC on the road with you.

 

No this thing will be stationary and its not portable because of the energy requirements, this will be like a notebook docking cooling system, so this would be intended for work or business but not for travel, currently i am drawing up the designs rite now. =)

 

I think this underscores the fact that there are issues with the current cooling method.

I'm not an engineer though so all I can do is speculate here. But I seriously don't like the current cooling method in my Inspiron. Currently there is a heatsink on the side of the laptop and a fan that blows air through it to the outside. Two copper strips conduct heat to the heatsink from the CPU and Graphics card.

I'd like to see the heatsink made of copper for starters.

 

TEC's are already on the market for desktops as high-end CPU coolers.

And being an engineer-in-training, I agree with many in that you'd have to design the shell from the ground up in order to incorporate TEC in it. Not only that, but the power consumption and resulting output heat are more than what a mobile platform can reasonably put out. Not to mention the physical size of TEC devices; they're not tiny just yet. I <3 my 9260's massive amount of copper fins & heatpipes.

Anyway... good in concept, but it would need major refinement before even an aftermarket part could be produced with it. UNLESS... you used it in an existing notebook cooler to feed refrigerated air to the intakes on the bottom of the laptop... I could see that happening without too much issue. And the larger temp difference will improve the heat transfer. Like a cold-air intake on a car, except that its nothing like it...

 

My idea of non compromise would be an air cooled laptop with liquid freon pipes throughout, the laptop runs as normal when on battery power, you would then be able to plug in a pump (run off the power brick with 2 cables out of it) and radiator to two pipes that come off the notebook which allow the system to be overclocked when stationary.

The challenge of the design is to make an easy and safe connector which does not produce air bubbles and is rugged enough inside the laptop not to leak.

 

Phase change? Wouldn't that need a Compressor?

Watercooling would be alot lighter I think. Then again, might as well buy two computers. A watercooled lappy would be well over $2000. You can buy a quadcore Desktop and a portable lappy for that much.

 

Well i here toshiba is actualy going with watercooling laptops but this is still in beta. While the weight is alittle heavier they noted that it fans and watercooling woul dbe the same only difference is no noise. Once agian i think we can do the PET device i just need to start looking for parts specficialy PET mini fridges.. and some silica beads. and i think we could be in business..

 

Lan party freaks, those who move aroun a lot etc.

 

With microchip fabrication sizes constantly being reduced, the need for secondary heat dissipation becomes redundant. Current generation Intel CPU's generate little heat, with further improvements achieved through upcoming 45nm die manufacturing. The major source of heat currently comes from dedicated GPU's, which will soon too see improvements in thermal efficiency. Thus, the market for Notebook coolers will shrink.

Regarding peltier cooling, condensation is a large concern. The peltier would mainly be cooling the gap of air between the peltier and the plastic notebook exterior - which itself is a poor conductor of heat. This air gap would become a pool of liquid condensate, potential harmful to the computer.

Another design consideration would be to use the heat gradient to drive a Stirling fan that efficiently moves air across the cooler heat fins.

 

Ok heres how i see it.

There are multiple ways to improve cooling being.
1. More surface (of heat sink the bigger the better it will cool)
2. More flow (of Air or liquid across surface area = grater cooling capacity)
3. Lower Temp of Air or liquid (bigger temperature delta = greater heat transfer)

Ok now in a laptop number 1 is basically ruled out because you want small laptops not huge ones. Unless you have some kinda docking thing that will meet with a hot section of the laptop and provide more surface area. But without thermal paste the interface would not be very good & also the laptop would need some kind of hole in it so you could connect this device to the hottest part of the laptop (CPU/GPU)

So now we have number 2 which is possible. But most people don't want a noisy laptop and moving for Air normally requires fans which are noisy unless you have big fans so you could do something like duct a 120mm fan to the air intake on your laptop & run it at 600rpm or something to get a huge airflow increase. But to do thing you would have to raise the laptop of the desk significantly or mount the fan & duct into a desk.

Now for number 3 which can also be done. By doing something like having a peltier connected to 2 heat sinks one which will become hot & one which will become cold. Then put a duct round the cold part so your laptop sucks air though the cold heat sink which will in turn make the air cold. In addition you would probably want a 120mm fan cooling the hot side of the peltier. And if you really want you can put ideas 2 & 3 together and have a 120mm fan forcing air though your laptops cooler with colder air which should mean much better cooling.

That last solution is probably fairly easy to implement basically get 2 120mm fans, 2 computer heat sinks, a pelitier, power supply for peltier and fans & some ducting. Stick it all together & you have a laptop independent cooling device although again your laptop would probably need to be raised unless you just want to duct the cool air so it blows under one side of you laptop or you would need to build it into the desk. Also condensation should;t be a problem because when the peltier is on water will form or maybe freeze on the cold heat sink but thats where it will stay unless you heat sink is above your laptop (gravity makes water move) but it would take ALOT of airflow to blow water droplets upwards towards your laptop.

Also the current cooling setups in laptops is quite capable & the ability of the heat pipes to move the heat to the cooling fans is quite incredible those fins get hot just put your hand in the airflow & feel the heat. All the system requires is more surface area which is ruled out or greater airflow.

 

After thinking about it if I wasn't living at UNI and had a desk to cut into I might build the cooling thing into a desk. Looking at parts I would probably go with a nice peltier like one of these http://www.chilledpc.com.au/store/default.php?cPath=76_196

two heatsinks as such http://www.pccasegear.com/prod4309.htm
a small power supply designed for an ITX case power rating would depend what peltier.

to make it really fancy one of these http://www.pccasegear.com/prod849.htm

Then some duct/thick pipe and you connect the 2 Zalman heatsinks to the peltier one on each side but so the fans blow 90 degrees to each other. Cut a 120mm hole in the back of the desk and then mount the heatsink/peltier arrangment so the hot heatsink will blow up through the hole in the desk (exaust) Cut another hole in the desk in an appropriate position and mount the fan contoller aswell as mounting the power supply under the desk.

Now next bit im unsure off becasue you could just cut a hole a bit bigger than your laptops air intake to the desk (if you want teh air to only go though the cooler) or you could cut a bigger hole that would just blow air all over the bottom of the laptop but whatever. After the whole is cut duct the cold heatsink to the hole. Hook up power appropiatly and turn on & you should get cold air blowing though teh bottom of the desk allong with teh ability to contol the fans speeds & the power level of teh peltier so you can turn teh cooling up or down. To make the system really nice adding an air filter inside the duct somewhere would reduce dust buildup in teh laptops cooler as well as catch any condensation drops incase there ever was any.

And for an added thing if you want to be really clever. Seeing as you don;t always have your laptop positions in exactly teh same spot on a desk. You could cut a large hole in the desk and then create a second desktop liek a flating layer above the original then you have a cavity where you can put a moveable peice of wood/glass/ plastic whatever which is what you would connect the duct to thus allowing you to move the duct around teh desk. It would be linited to say 30cm x 30cm of movement on a decent size desk but is still better than no movement.

So anyone think that would actually work?

 

I believe this idea is worth to try but condensation is a problem... but i dont think it would lower the temperature that much anyways, the max it would lower the notebook would be 32 degrees CPU.. but i am still working on the calculations

 

thats not a small improvement thats a 20 degree improvement on most laptops which is quite huge when it comes to cooling. especially seeing as a 10 degree change is normally attributed with doubling the ageing process of electronics. Thus with a 20 degree drop slowing it buy 4 times. And for teh people who are trying to overclock their laptops that would be a massive improvement. I might do some math on it too and see what i can come up with

 

yea but at 32 degrees i dont condensation will apear on the notebook by rather on the back of the heatsink. Thanks Ben for joing in my our search for a better notebook cooler

 

If the TEC/Pelteir was mounted into an arrangement to supply the laptop's existing cooling structure with colder air, then that would be the easiest and most ideal. And without a high power TEC with a lot of insulation, just transporting the TEC-shilled air to the laptop shouldn't induce condensation.

 

If you have taken apart or even looked at just about any modern laptop (the ones 14" or larger, at least), you'll find pipes filled with refrigerant (most commonly tetrafluoroethane (HFC134a) or difluoroethane (HFC152a)) that help dissipate heat. The refrigerant boils in the hot spots and condenses in the cool spots. As such, the entire heat pipe acts like a material with an extremely high thermal conductivity.

 

Yes I am aware of heatpipes thanks, but I am talking about a pumped active system.

 

so with the PET device we should be able to transfer heat directly where where it is needed the most. The CPU the GPU and the harddrive.. i think that will be an easier stress load for the PET device ..yes ?

 

There's always the option of an external air chiller built into the docking station. Or just use a big chiller to cool the whole room. (Hey, it works for data centers...)

 

at 32 degrees no condensation will be forming. dew point is about 4 degrees I think & anything above 10 and you should be completely safe. Add that to the fact that as the air goes though the cold heat sink it gets cold and thus contracts which is why water come out of the air and will form on the heat sink. the then cold & contacted air travels towards the laptop and on the way will probably heat a little but definitely not cool anymore so will in fact take water way from the laptop because as the air heats up it will absorb any water around it. The only danger of condensation getting near the laptop is if the water that forms on the cold heat sink gets blown onto the laptop. But like i said before if you stick an air filter in the way or just use gravity the chances are extremely extremely low.

 

now i just need the money to build this thing and we are set =) ill start to dig up what i can ill have access to a full machine shop in a couple of months of so

 

dew point varies widely.

I don't think this is a bad idea. I like the idea of passive (maybe you were thinking solid-state?) fans. Basically take all the heat in the laptop, and move it to one side of the laptop or all to the one side of the laptop cooler, rather than using fans.

 

Not a new idea, sorry. We use the PJs at work. In their present form they consume too much power and, as mentioned, have a condensation problem if the cold side not insulated correctly. We now need a huge fan to remove the heat generated and moved by the Peltier J.

I think your time would be beter spent to design equipment with a lesser thermal budget so that fan-less dissipation may be used, say a 7900GS that generates 1 watt instead of twenty.

 

really whats the temps yo get using the PJs ?

 

Pretty cold when they work, we use this 40 watt unit which is as big as a laptop.

http://www.thermoelectric.com/2005/pr/cp/ahp-150cp.htm

My little 'ole heat pipe will dissipate 20 watts from just the 7900GS.