Are all Sandy Bridge Laptops CPU's running warm?

45w tdp running load will have more heat coming from it than a 35w tdp. That heat is going somewhere and people would think the notebook runs hotter becouse they notice the vent left/right/back and that is hotter or the notebook itself gets hot.

 

Did anyone, the OP included, bother to look up the processor spec sheets at intel.com to see what the nominal temp ranges for the CPUs are?

Saying that a certain temperature is "too hot" without knowing what the chip is designed for is pretty silly.

Semi-good discussion otherwise, but the base assumptions/assertions in post #1 INCLUDING an attempt to judge the heat output of mobile processors by the heat output of desktop processors is shaky at best.

Folks who are going to post their at-load temps should probably be using the same tool to measure things.

 

newsposter,

Naw, why would we do that?

Spec sheets are like running benchmarks. Worthless (real world use) and only valid in a static or even isolated configuration.

Actual reports from owners are much more valuable (to me), not to mention the ideas and interaction that happens with these discussions.

Hey! You didn't do that either!

 

I replied as such, way back in post #35, this thread seems to have taken off in a whole other direction.

 

I'm genuinely confused as to what the purpose of this post is, unless you haven't understood what the impact of collecting the information is worth.....

Let's assume that the threshold temperature for stepping the processor frequency down is 95'c.

Machine A

Constantly runs at 95'C under load....therefore processor is constantly stepping back to the minimum clocking supported by the processor.

Machine B

Runs at 95'C under load till processor frequency reaches say 2.4Ghz when the temperatures level off at 92'C.

Machine C

Runs at 92'C or less under load therefore the processor can crank at 3.4Ghz without problems.

The above scenario would not be reflected in an spec sheet for the processor, nor would it be contained in any marketing pack, however in my opinion it's critical to being able to decide which machine provides the best performance.

Excessive temperature has an immediate effect on Sandy Bridge performance as well as a longer term 'heat wearing' effect on the components around the processor. Just because my processor can run at 100'C before thermal cut out doesn't mean I'm happy with it running at 90'C most of the time.

Collecting and collating data will allow us to identify and see whether this is a general Sandy Bridge issue or whether it's only certain models that seem to be suffering with this issue.

Hopefully this makes it clearer for you.

 

There is no need to assume a thing about temps if you go and read the spec sheets.

If you want to assume something, how about assuming that the processor is rated for a constant operating temp of 120c. What does that assumption do to your assumptions?

Read the spec sheets first.

 

Have you even bothered to read the information yourself?

Please show me where on the spec sheets for any of the Intel Sandy Bridge Mobile processors where it tells you the exact cut threshold for either ramping up or ramping back the processor speed. The reason you won't be able to is because Intel themselves state that the ramping is controlled by a number of factors....

What is Intel® Turbo Boost Technology and how does it work?
Intel Turbo Boost Technology is a way to automatically run the processor core faster than the marked frequency if the part is operating under power, temperature, and current specifications limits of the Thermal Design Power (TDP). This results in increased performance of both single and multi-threaded applications.

Oh and here's the link so you can check it yourself and improve your understanding.

Processors — Intel® Turbo Boost Technology frequently asked questions

So as I requested above if people could post the temperature and frequency numbers from their Sandy Bridge notebooks we can hopefully start to draw some comparisons.

 

That would be catastrophic. Maximum operating temperature of Sandy Bridge CPUs is 100 degree celsius

 

And how did you find that out? Something called the Pt junction temp or ????

(there are at least three answers for SB mobile CPUs and none of them are 100c)

Turbo Boost calculation parameters are quite openly published by Intel. In research papers, usually available as PDFs. Web searches need to also look for OS requests for P0 cpu states.

 

Ok, so looking at research papers for answers? You're stretching it a bit. This is a forum, if you can't contribute please go elsewhere.

 

Now you're just trolling......go away and play in another thread and let the sensible people try to work out if there's any valid data out there.

 

I wonder if this is related to the overheating issue (/sarcasm):

See:
Latest MacBook Pros suffering from GPU-related freezes

 

Mbp - the epitome of form before function.
Too bad so many people just dont know the difference.

 

Same analogy:
Pretty/Handsome people = Good People
Good Looking GUI = Good OS
Good Looking Laptop = Reliable/Good Laptop
/Sarcasm.

 

This chart is a bit misleading since it is comparing a 2820qm (45w part) versus a 940xm (55w part). I'm sure under load, the 55w 2920xm would be on par with the 940xm under load.

 

The problem with sb and laptops with poor thermals is that sb uses the agressive turbo boost 2 technology. So evwn if a laptop is not necessarilly shutting down or throttling, you would not reap the full benefits of sb without good thermal overhead.
It would be interesting to see how these laptops with poor heat management perform vis a vis laptops with great thermals that have similar specs.

 

I think you're all sort of looking at this from the wrong direction. Saying there may be a Sandy Bridge overheating flaw is pretty misleading.

The temperatures the chip gets up to, throttles down at, thermally cuts out etc are defined by Intel. The laptop manufacturers are well aware of these specs, and they receive engineering samples from Intel so that they can test their product designs.

So, rather than saying 'the chip might get too hot', it's like 'this is how hot the chip gets. It is what it is. Design a laptop around those parameters.'

So the more interesting question is not whether Sandy Bridge gets hotter than Arrandale or not, or even how hot Sandy Bridge gets (I mean the chip itself here, not a laptop containing it); that's a red herring. The question is, which laptop manufacturers have designed their cooling systems properly? This is what we will find out in the coming months - heat issues will be laptop related, not specifically Sandy Bridge related.

 

Maximum allowed temperature for Core i7 is 100°C. If it heats up more, the CPU will enable thermal throttling, i.e. the Vcore and clock frequency multiplier will be forced down to 12x. This feature protects the processor die against dangerous overheating.

Instead of just acting all silly and telling us about the research papers etc and acting all smart, why don`t you write down what temperature is safe and what is hazardous to SB CPUs? No wonder people are getting a little frustrated towards you...

 

So, a 45W SB processor would produce the same heat amount as any previous 45 W processor? That's expectable.
But then why those notebook models are getting higher temperatures than before? The cooling systems may not be improved, but at least they are the same.
Or aren't they hotter? (I dunno, I'm away of notebook technology since my last buy, 3 years ago and just got scared on those numbers - my Inspiron 1525 with a core 2 duo reaches 73ºC tops).

Anyone knows how is it going with undervolting techniques under those processors?

newsposter, I don't need to read academic articles to know that temperatures over 90ºC are dangerous and unreasonable to a laptop components and usage. Any Lithium battery gets killed rapidly by any higher temperature than 60 ºC and usually they're right beside the cooling system.

 

Maybe they are getting hotter because of the more aggressive turbo boost 2.0.
So a laptop designed for the first gen core i7 may find itslef getting higher temps with an sb cpu of the same tdp.

 

hmmm
So, while turbo boost 2.0 is active, it would dissipate more than 45W (continuously)?

 

No, the TDP is the maximum amount of heat that needs to be dissipated, so that would be with Turbo Boost running flat out.

If it throttles itself back then that means that the cooling system of the laptop it's in can't effectively dissipate 45W.

 

Whoa. And the older laptops would have survived without being able to dissipate 45W? Talk about underdimensioned projects...

 

TDP is different than power draw, you guys are missing this.

The TDP is how much heat needs to be dissipated/generated.

power draw is how much the chip itself consume.

If the laptop overheats, its because the TDP that it was designed for is not meeting the chip TDP requirements.

Just because some notebooks cant dissipate the heat, it doesnt mean the fault is from the chips, it means they have bad designs that is all.

and turbo boost 2.0 wont exceed the maximum TDP of the chip, since they are throttled by the heat they generate.

 

We were talking about heat dissipation, not power draw.

You've basically just reworded what I posted two posts above and then claimed to be correcting us!

 

Seeing as chips aren't very power efficient and all the energy that goes in the chip gets converted into heat, it doesn't matter if you are talking about heat or power. Energy is never lost but converted in other forms of energy, loss of energy is always forms of energy you don't need, usually that is heat.

 

Mr MM

Any chance you could post some temps and processor frequencies to the thread while under load?

Preferably under load for a while so we can see if the frequency ramps back.

Thanks

 

TDP is NOT the maximum power that can be dissipated, it is a maximum power that a typical set of worst case apps will generate. Intel states that under synthetic apps this power point could be exceeded. So when you run a synthetic app like prime 95 you can probably exceed the TDP. The Tj on these guys is 100 degrees C. Keep in mind 10 degrees C is 18 degrees F, so when you are 10 degrees off maxim it seems like your pretty close to that margin.

 

Travelbug

Any chance of some temps and processor frequencies under load from yourself?

 

What software would you prefer me to test with?

(first forum post from new Sandy Bridge laptop!)

 

hmmm
the line between 'worst case apps' and 'syntethic' is quite subtle, don't you agree? I can think of professional applications (or even intensive gaming) where the conditions of such synthethic application are potentially matched...


ssssssssss, what's your laptop?

 

Sony SB with an i5-2520M.

 

HWMonitor to measure the temps.

http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor/versions-history.html

and

Prime to load the CPU

Free Software - GIMPS

and

Furmark to load the GPU

FurMark: VGA Stress Test, Graphics Card and GPU Stability Test, Burn-in Test, OpenGL Benchmark and GPU Temperature | oZone3D.Net

Thanks

 

Cool - unlikely to be tonight as I will be too busy playing with it, but will do it over the next couple of days.

 

Maybe you could try to let HWMonitor running on the ground
It's very lightweight and keeps a record of the highest temperature... you could keep an eye on it, both for light use or gaming. Then you tell us what you've seen.

Enjoy your new laptop!

 

alienware m17x-r3
i7-2630QM - 4% OC - stock paste
Max temp under full load I ever saw was 85C
Average is 55-65, typically around 75-80 at full load

 

Sure, but my sb laptop is still being shipped

 

Thanks

If you get a chance to do a load test for 20 minutes and see what the processor ends up clocking at that would be great.

 

If that was directed at me, I am not saying not to use Prime95 as a means to test your CPU, It works pretty good at maxing out the CPU, thus the power dissipation as well. Another program that really stresses a CPU is OCCT.

Agree it is, especially since Intel does not specify what those apps are and under what conditions. I have never liked the use of TDP as a measurement of processors power dissipation. Because there are no standards by which CPU and GPU manufactures can test to, it’s not even useful as a true means of comparing an Intel with an AMD CPU or an Nvidia with AMD GPU.

 

Subjective, non-scientific results in - if I switch from AMD graphics to Intel, it blows a lot less hot air out the back.

Looks like I'll be leaving it in stamina mode then, as expected!

 

Actually, with Turbo Boost 2.0, that's no longer true. Turbo Boost 2.0 is specifically designed to be able to exceed the standard TDP briefly (up to 25 seconds, see Anandtech here). Sustained temperatures should be "normal", though.

 

Urgh, so they've effectively ignored the actual definition of TDP?

 

I guess somewhat. I suppose they justify it by saying that TDP is now "sustained" TDP, but...

 

do your notebook have the Optimus technology?

Or how are you switching between GPUs?

 

It has a hardware switch.

Optimus is an Nvidia technology, so you're not going to find that on a laptop with an AMD GPU.

 

We need some more temps in this thread......

 

I really don't think there's anything to worry about. Both of the laptops mentioned had couldn't cool last-gen CPUs either. I doubt that these run any hotter than the previous CPUs.

 

yup i was surprised that apple went quad sb when their mbps couldnt do i7 quads

 

All the sad facts and poor decisions (Apple's...) are here in full colour.

Anand, Brian and Vivek are still showing their biases (or, the very least, extremely poor reporting skills) by recommending to simply wait for Ivy Bridge to solve these heat/power/throttling issues made even worse in the 2011 MBP refresh - instead of simply recommending almost any other manufacturer that gets designing for the components installed (as opposed to designing for 'beauty' above all else).

See:
The MacBook Pro Review (13 & 15-inch): 2011 Brings Sandy Bridge - AnandTech :: Your Source for Hardware Analysis and News

 

tiller
wasnt realy inclined to read the mbp review but did they mention anyhting about throttling or shutdowns on the mbp?