Are laptops meant to be user upgradeable?

Even if things are accessible, notebooks normally have a very limited upgrade path.

Sockets change like the wind, even if you ca change the CPU, can the cooling system take it? Can the Bios deal with it? It's not like desktops where they release 20 bios updates over 2 years to handle all of the newer cpus coming out. This can also limit memory options.

As far as graphics card options go, let's face it, those are even more limited. If you can change it, odds are only a few are offered or supported. And again, can the cooling system handle it?

Turnover on notebooks is just too fast in most cases for any significant upgrades and manufacturers aren't likely to make significant changes to this anytime soon.

 

Well that's not necessarily true. People are still upgrading their socket M and P laptops with processors, RAM, and for certain laptops the GPU as well. Is it very common? No, the average person would have called it quits 2 years ago and bought a new notebook, however some of us aren't made of money. Plus I'm the crazy kind of person who will completely disassemble a notebook just to repaste it.

 

I have been lucky with Dell laptops

Vostro 1500 upgrades: CPU T5470->T9300, GPU 8400MGS -> 8600MGT, HD 120GB -> 640GB, RAM 1gb -> 4GB, WiFi g->n, bluetooth, turbo memory

Inspiron 500m upgrades: CPU 1.3GHz Banias -> 1.8GHz Dothan, LCD 1024x768 -> 1400x1050, RAM 128MB -> 1GB, HD 20GB -> 40GB, Wifi b -> g, bluetooth

 

That's not crazy at all. In fact, with that kind of sensible thinking I would place you at the top of the hierarchy.

 

Heh well I was just reading about high temps and just out of the blue decided to repaste everything.

 

My point is they don't have too.

With each generation becoming more efficient, that shouldn't be an issue.

Any design flaw can be overcome.

Same answer as above. And yes, I'll admit it would be a specialized group (at least initially), but people are still making money in vinyl records. Who on earth could have predicted that?

That's where your consumer dollar come in at. If GM doesn't make a car we want, we buy elsewhere.

 

Until that way of thinking changes, laptops will have limited upgradability though, which was my point.

 

And many people can get along just fine with a Pentium M, let alone a Core or Core 2.

Most of them don't need such a powerful mobile workstation. Now, they might not want to be working on a machine with Windows 95, but most of them do just fine with a $1000 desktop. I will use the example of Jeph Jacques, who runs a fairly popular webcomic called Questionable Content. His machine is an up-RAMed Mac Pro. They don't need a powerful notebook; there's no point in it for them, as they'll be primarily working in one place; they don't really need the mobility. Apart from enthusiasts, which are liable to spend ridiculous amounts of money on things they don't actually need (this includes people like myself. >.> ), those people that actually need the power of a mobile workstation can afford it fairly easily.

As for the industry being complacent, lazy, or greedy, that's an indefensible argument on both sides. You can claim that they are, but except in specific cases of malfeasance, it's largely unprovable. Likewise, if I wished to claim that they weren't, there's no way for me to prove it either. And, of course, as stated before, you have to toss in the terms of what the market wants. We could have all been flying in supersonic airliners 30 years ago... but people decided they didn't want to. Are the airplane manufacturers complacent, lazy, or greedy for not pushing more Concorde equivalents on us?

This assumes that it's physically possible. You can demand that "the industry" figure out how to turn water into wine all you'd like... doesn't mean it can happen at all.

Which transition? The Expresscard format came out in 2003. USB 3.0 specifications weren't released until 2008. So somehow, the designers of the Expresscard 1.0 format should have magically known that 5 years in the future there would be a format that would be 10 times the previous format, as opposed to maybe 5 times (which would still have been within their limits). Oh, and the limit is largely at the PCI-E end... and PCI-E 2.0 (which would allow for the full speed of USB 3.0) wasn't introduced until 2007... By that argument, every single 6-lane highway should be upgraded to a 16-lane highway because we "know" that traffic is going to increase, never mind the expense and trouble involved.

And that's a big part of where we disagree. I'm not sure we do (have the technology). And given where we seem to be at regarding hardware vs software, I think more and more, the flexibility to keep current is unnecessary. We've already hit a point where most computers are vastly more capable than necessary for most mundane tasks. See the plethora of computers that use integrated graphics, for example. For people that don't game, or that don't have particularly demanding requirements, there's simply no need for such an expense. And that's really my whole point, as I've stated before. Like it or not, you and I are significantly in the (quite possibly uneconomic) minority.

Are there enough of us, though? Despite a near perfect record, the Concorde was retired as being uneconomical. I suspect the "upgradeable" notebook crowd is in much the same boat. Heck, even bare-bones notebooks (arguably the closest thing we have currently to an upgradeable system) are dying out.

 

No. Doesn't matter anyway, the price of gaming-capable laptops had already dropped to the point that it makes more sense to buy a new one every year than to upgrade it.

I got my Acer 4741G i3 380m + GT420M for just $600. Between Sandy Bridge, Llano, Zacate, tablets, Radeon 6xxx/Geforce 5xx I will fully expect to get another Acer with better specs 1 year later for just $500. And then sell the old one to soak up some of the cost.

 

Well limited compared to what? Desktops? Sure of course, small compact form factor means usually heavily disassembly to get to the CPU/GPU. But RAM, HDD are brainless for most models as manufacturers created doors for that very purpose. They could have pulled a Sony like the NW230 model and made the WHOLE bottom cover minus a door for the RAM or the new Macbook/MBP models where you have to take off the whole bottom cover and some people just don't want to go through that.

 

Yup I think so. All I need to do is remove 4 screws to take the back cover off. Then I have access to everything. I have changed the GPU, CPU, RAM, ODD, WI-fi card, fans and HDD. Some of those compenents I have changed several times. It is easier for me to change things than in a typical desktop which is of course more bulky.

 

My daily driver is a 1977 MG. And in the next couple of years I will be installing fuel injection in place of the carburetor.

 

Who said anything about a generic notebooks? Those individuals are only interested in something that can surf the web.

Incidentally, has it occurred to you that with the rapidly increasing computer processing capabilities, the niche market (which may become standard) may one day be all they have left?

Wrong! They gained nothing; they simply couldn't respond to the individuality that was offered by the aftermarket.

Wrong again. However, it was a culmination of their lack of vision and/or refusal to respond in many other areas to the desires of their consumers. Remember, GM was once the most powerful company in the world!

Strangely not the segment I was referring to.

Wrong a third time. They (at least the innovative ones) in fact have whole departments that do just that.

Finally someone that gets it.

Now wouldn't that be an environmental nightmare. You should be ashamed for saying that.

Again, not the segment I'm referring to!!

 

Couple good points there, by upgrading older hardware to somewhat modern standards you also save the environment. And no need to throw away perfectly working computer, I just amass them (you should see my room and basement >_<)

 

Two screws and a cover later, jostled in a new drive, four screws later, and a cover later, jammed in some ram. While I was at it I got a quick peak at my processor sitting just down from the memory. I probably could have swiped the processor out fairly easy if I wanted to.
I think it all depends on the manufacture.

 

Then maybe we should end this and just take a vote?

 

I can access CPU, GPU, RAM, WiFi and both hard drives through a single panel on the bottom along with the entire cooling system.

Only warranty sticker on my asus was on the screw for the cpu heatsink which was only half attached when i got myne.

 

Yes, blame me for being not environmental friendly just because I buy a new laptop to replace my old one. Uh, because it has better specs than the last one? And there's no way to upgrade the GPU for 99% of laptops?

Why would anyone want to do such an unenviromental friendly thing? Economics be damned!

 

Ever watch Captain Planet?

Anyways 99% of people should realize that the GPU they buy is pretty much it. Everything else can be readily upgradable. Whether it's worth it or not is another story but this thread is about upgradability OR not.

 

Whoops double post. Darn you crappy wifi.

 

Asking for switchable graphics in laptops is like asking for mass user-caused deaths of laptops. Most people simply would not know what is compatible with what and would likely stick a GPU that takes too much power, and produces too much heat. Unlike desktops which can handle such high outputs of energy consumption (and heat), laptops are quite fragile due to the compactness.

Mr. Green Pants:
To setup a standard for GPU's, and have all manufacturers conform to such actions would cause more pollution, and spending then it would save. How? Simple, factories, assemblers, etc would all need to either:
1) Build new factories using the lowest cost possible, aka pollution/materials that are not environmentally friendly.
2) Rebuild their pre-existing factories using non environmentally friendly methods.
3) Be awesomely green, and use environmentally friendly methods/materials to rebuild or build their factories as well as green methods to make products; then go broke within weeks because stockholders are not going to put up with that kind of wasteful spending of money and will sell their stocks for next to nothing. Stockholders want to hear about making money, not saving the environment while costing them the company's future.

 

Huh? If that's your explanation it's a weak one, since even desktops have limitation and requirements that have to be adhered to.

Even so, a simple label will solve that problem. But if that's still not enough, manufactures can simply design a "diesel nozzle" that won't fit a gasoline fuel tank.

 

Please tell me how desktops are limited in that regard, other then of course to adhere to PCI-E specifications (300w limit).

Heat wise they are fine considering Desktop GPU's use 80mm fans rotating easily upwards to 5000 rpm vs a much smaller fan spinning at lower RPM's or equal RPM but smaller blade size.

Sounds expensive. Your whole idea of switchable graphics cards is a bit far fetched economically, market shares, and logistically.

Tell me what are the benefits of doing this for the companies whom will have to revamp or build new factories, as well as the OEM's whom will no longer sell as many laptops because people are simply upgrading them.

Oh yes almost forgot, we all know how well labels work. -points to Labels in cigarettes-, -points to labels in power supplies concerning two different AC standards (120v/220v~) etc.

 

don't like my G73 for not being very user upgradeable especially with CPU but i can access Hard drive + RAM easily so its ok.. but yeah , they should be more accessible especially on bigger notebooks.. no excuse to save space etc in the design.

Panther214

 

ALL computers have limit! There only so much you can put in a case.

The average laptop has one HD, if you want more you need a bigger laptop

All new innovation are expensive in the beginning. Just look at SSDs. It takes time for the industry to respond to change.

It's call innovation, the foundation of the computer business. One need look no further than Apple to understand how it works.

Addictions notwithstanding, I trust you know the difference between diesel and gasoline?

 

Unrelated, but unless its a netbook I wouldn't buy it if it couldn't fit 2 drives. Im a desktop person in that regard i guess.

The G50 is a freakin pig, its the biggest 15.6 inch ive ever owned, But i think the MSI 660 is bigger. A cleverly designed 14 incher could fit two drives. The market doesn't seem to feel any need for it yet or ever. (By that i mean as a common offering) Too cramped.

More related ASUS uses an upside down MXM card, standard port and connector, but the gpu is on the wrong side. ASUS could correct thi in the future by using a flipped port which would allow them to easily conform to a standard. Main thing after that is GPU position on the card, I vote Center but this doesnt always work and could lead to wasted space.

 

Other than Apple II and iPod, I fail to see how it works for Apple. Apple are good at polishing and marketing but I don't see much innovation in their products.

 

You got it, but you left out, and making a lot of many doing so. Now read his question again.

Apple doesn't let tradition stand in their way of progress. They are innovators because they set the standards and create a market where none existed before: The MP3 is two steps backwards, but who cares as long as the money keeps rolling in.

 

which market you are talking about ?

 

Well it's funny how you describe Apple like that. They def push innovation and design into everything. Look at the MB Air. But it's funny that pushing all that innovation and design they keep crappy FireWire, which true its their own technology but is easily destroyed by e-SATA. There's a point where you can't toot your own horn when the competition crushes your tech.

 

Okay, empty arguments.

1. What kind of argument is that? All desktops/laptops have limits, thus all limits are the same? No, no they are not.

Laptops have far more limitations that are disproportional to desktop's limits.

First off we have heatpipes, and heat fin space available in a laptop, on a desktop one can easily fit a much larger heatsink and many more heatpipes. By proportions sake the inside chassis of a laptop houses more mass then the desktops which are mostly air inside the case. Thus desktops have far more proportionate expansions for higher heat output components then laptops which nearly constrict air flow already. (fans on laptops are rarely used to their maximum due to small constricting space).

2. What's your point? Considering we have 500gb Laptop hard drives, and 1tb laptop hard drives perhaps in the next half a year or year storage is rarely an issue. People who use anymore space are a mass minority, and not worth it for companies to even change the color of a single plastic let alone build their lower end line up for a second hard drive. Understand your place, you are a minority in companies eyes.

3. Yes. Except the innovation you are claiming will cause more loss of resources, and increase in non-environmentally friendly processes/waste then they would save. Period. It's like saying: We need to change cups to a environmentally material. Doing so will save 500 tons of waste in the next 2 decades, but changing factories, and sources etc will waste 2000 tons of waste in the next years as companies change their materials to be more green. Are we polluting the earth? Yes but it sure as hell isn't intentional.

So unless you are ready to pay $2,000 for a laptop that costs $400-$500 in the present, keep your green enviromentally friendly self idea where they belong along side Reaganomics. Propose viable options, not far out ideas.

4. Apple hasn't done anything innovating the past 2 decades. Everything they have done has been done before, the people who didn't just don't have the shameless advertising that Apple has, which in my own opinion is disgusting (perhaps not as disgusting as Coca-Cola's advertising decades ago).

Aluminum notebooks? Been done. Unibody notebooks? It's been done, I am afraid I don't remember which laptop it was, I was corrected at overclock.net when I brought Apple's Unibody up.
Mp3's? Done. Music libraries? yup already done. Iphone market? Sorry what was that I was buying an app on a 6 year old Nokia. IPS screens? Glossy+led=fail. Battery life? Nope, definitely not the champion. OSX? Sorry there's Unix.

Let's break down Apple's "greatness".
* Microsoft a company who mainly revolves around software and business solutions has far more profits then Apple. It has comparable cash. It doesn't need to sell overpriced products.
* Nokia, yes that's right Nokia is on top of Apple in terms of revenues according to Fortune 500. Yeah even Nokia pwns Apple.

Don't get me wrong Apple really really has come a long way, and it has done extremely well however do not mistake it's media madness for true success. If you want to see a truly successful companies look at Oracle, and IBM.
Now...
Want a truly phenomenal entrepreneur of the world?

John D. Rockefeller. The first billion dollar individual in the world, and rated as the wealthiest historical figure, ever. Dominated the American Petroleum and Steel industries as many of you may know.
Peak of Personal Wealth during his life: 1.4 billion dollars. That is pre WWI dollars. In 2007 United States Dollars, it is an estimated $663.4 billion.

Here's more numbers.

To estimate a company's worth, you take their Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization (EBITDA) and multiply it by their industry average. For technology it's between 6-12 times. Apple has an excellent record since Steve Jobs was reappointed CEO, thus lets say it's 12 times.

Apple's EBITDA as of 2010:
19.36B
x 12
Total: 231.6 billion dollars, this is being the highest the company would sell for, and is being quite generous.

That is what Apple is worth today, in 2010 currency.

Rockefeller could buy Apple nearly 3x times over. That's one individual.

Bah.

 

I have a Mac; therefore upgradable to a certain extent.

All I have to do is unscrew 8 screws and I have access to the HDD and the RAM. The Optical Drive can be reached too, though it takes a few more screws.

 

Yes but for replacing video cards is out of the question. Processor upgrades shouldn't be a problem as long as you get the right socket/FSB. Plus Mac uses specific hardware/software unless you want edit/create a new kext good luck trying to get a major hardware upgrade to work.

 

For an ODD, HDD or RAM, Macintosh computers are upgradable. Processor and GPU aren't.

Depends on one's definition of user upgradable.

 

I would say that the most user-upgrade friendly laptops are Clevos. All of them, from the low-end to the high-end are designed to be easily upgradable.

In terms of components, I think the main problem is that there really isn't a market for components. Sure, you can get the RAM and HDD usually cheaper than if you buy it with the whole system. But for the rest of components there are no third-party producers. We don't see Gainward MXM cards in shops, and laptop CPUs are generally far more expensive if bought separately than if bought with the laptop. Other components like wireless lan cards, TV-tunners are also hard to find. Also laptop LCD screens are hardly standardised and their quality and warranty service is not very good for those sold separately.

This is not a matter of demand, I am sure there is demand, it's a matter for suppliers, who don't really want a standardisation and liberalisation of the laptop component market. Because once that happens, they will no longer sell as many laptops as they used , or even worse, ppl. will start buying barebones and built the laptops themselves.

However, I should mention some previous attempts to sell barebones have been unsuccessful. A few years back (2-3 years), Asus and MSI tried to directly sell barebones to the end-user and as far as I know, they have now closed that service. Showing that users are still not used to the idea of building their own laptop.

However, things may change... you never know.

I for instance, have managed to score some very nice upgrades in my laptop while spending far less than if I would have bought them with the whole system.

 

Oops mistake on my part.

 

You'll have to reread what he said my friend

He is counting on the fact that they are soldered in.

Now as far as Mac OS X freaking out, that is a valid possibility and a problem. Those who have done things we cant discuss will know more to that tune. But as an example windows would run, sometimes requiring reactivation but it wouldn't refuse to work necessarily. So unless you know for sure I wouldn't rule it out.

 

That's always the way it is in the beginning

That's exactly my point--they SHOULD be! There's no practical reason why manufactures can't design a case that makes the procedure as simple as dropping in a new HD. Especially when you consider the limited amount of screen builders out there.

What would make you come to that conclusion? From where I sit, the percentage wouldn't increase any more than what's already being done with desktops.

Due to lack of support no doubt.

I have no doubt of that...eventually.

 

Can you address the points brought in my previous post and bring actual arguments.

 

The worst I have seen is my roomates Dell. The HDD is under the palm rest which is a pain to take off. First you have to unscrew around 10 screws to get the bottom off so you can get to the screws to remove the upper panel above the keyboard. Prying the panel off is almost impossible and the keyboard takes about 5 more screws to remove. Finally, you can pry off the palm rest which will reveal the HDD...

 

+1 for that

 

Oh dear I know exactly what your talking about. The older HP netbooks*** were like that but not as difficult as some dell models.

 

That is only on the R series notebooks (14,15,17R). Which is why my favorite notebooks are the older Dell chassis models where either it is part of the chassis or has a door.

 

Fine for the past, but we should be looking to the future.

Maybe we should make a thread for this?

 

lol well I still think Dells from 2005-2007ish mark are the better. They have that traditional Dell design, and that's the chassis I know how to open up the best. All of them usually have the same design, power strip button, LCD hinge screws, keyboard palmrest placement, and then all the guts are right there. I can get to the guts of my Vostro in less than 5 minutes, compared to a Sony? And that chassis design from 2005-2007 I think is far superior to anything made today. You see those older Dells still chugging along. I've seen bumps, scratches, falls not break those Dells.

I've also played with the newer Dell chassis, like the 1545, 1564, E6400, new Vostro line. I feel like Dell has gone to the "pretty" route and strayed away from big, bulky durable chassis design. The new chassis I feel are nowhere near as durable as the older chassis design, which is to be expected. I have a friend who works IT, and got his D630 upgraded to a E6410 and he says it feels like it is less durable and feels cheaply made and his D630 was far superior in terms of build quality.

 

On the E64**/E65** series the chassis is actually as thick in material as the older Dell Chassis found on their latitude line. The only difference is the service hatch (what I call it anyways) is thinner.
I found the design on the E64**/E65** to be much better done, everything is more compactly placed, yet strategically placed to avoid high heat build up. Compared to older Dell's who wasted so much space between components/compartments the new designs are great.

In my own professional opinion both new are old Latitudes are well built machines. The E64/64** series are superior due to the way better design of the laptop. You can literally get anywhere with minimal effort.

The Inspirons are the same build quality in terms of history. Which is to say some new models are POS, others are not. Same as with the older Inspirons, some were good some were not. Both old/new can exchange hits in terms of build quality. Hope that is clear enough.

 

I guess the build quality may depend more on the ODM than on the OEM.