CPU Vulnerabilities, Meltdown and Spectre, Kernel Page Table Isolation Patches, and more

Though about referencing that but didn't know how well known it was generally. (Love that show)

You are being watched.

 

This is a tech forum and many question the motives of lettered agencies here. Just doing the math, you had a pretty good percentage that people here were fans! (and if not, now they know, go binge! It's on Netflix!)

 

The Steam app itself needs to be reinstalled into a fresh C drive even if it was installed on the D drive, same issue with application DLL's and registry entries needed on the C drive, but the library of games import for me, but not all work 100% and those require deleting and reinstalling too.

Importing the Steam Library if installed on a non-C: drive is a nice exception, but a lot of people install Steam and the game Library on the C partition as default, and the Steam Library is also lost and needs reinstallation if you don't do an image back up of the C drive.

 

I put steam on C:, because if you are coming from a backup or installing fresh, why not apps on same drive. But my entire game library (1.4TB) is on another drive. Granted, I want a 2TB SSD, but it only slows down loading on an HDD, not gameplay.

 

Researcher finds another security flaw in Intel management firmware
Active Management Technology defaults allow anyone to take control of many PCs.
https://arstechnica.com/information...r-security-flaw-in-intel-management-firmware/

"But the latest vulnerability—discovered in July of 2017 by F-Secure security consultant Harry Sintonen and revealed by the company today in a blog post—is more of a feature than a bug. Notebook and desktop PCs with Intel AMT can be compromised in moments by someone with physical access to the computer—even bypassing BIOS passwords, Trusted Platform Module personal identification numbers, and Bitlocker disk encryption passwords—by rebooting the computer, entering its BIOS boot menu, and selecting configuration for Intel’s Management Engine BIOS Extension (MEBx)."

This has been known for years. It's kind of like the more familiar BIOS management / administrator password. If someone can get access to your BIOS they can set all kinds of things and then lock you out of your own laptop, making it useless. Same for this, set it up when you get the laptop, most corporations will already set this up before it reaches the user.

You would want this under independent control, away from the normal BIOS settings, possibly administered by a different group.

It is a feature, and as with all BIOS passwords, you need to lock others out when you set it up, don't leave it at "null" defaults, or anyone can boot into it and mess it up.

 

I think it has been shown that these patch(s)/fix(s) do not really affect gaming nor I imagine affect gaming benchmarking much if at all. I am talking about those out there that just a few days ago would trust nothing but the stead fastness, security and reliability of Intel for their workflows and would never recommend anything else.

 

Ya, and most of them would stand on soap boxes, and preach about it too! Obviously they have been cutting corners for years, as I am nearly 100 percent sure that they have known about these vulnerabilities. Gaming benchmarks mean nearly nothing to me, because to me they dont offer any real world, real use, statistics. I could care less if machine A has 2% better framerates than machine B. Its more important to me in how it handles real work loads.

 

What worries me is the interactive glitches being reported turning into lockup's at or near 100% CPU load. That behavior makes this unusable, or at least really annoying for normal use. Most users are going to be upset by this kind of glitchy everyday use, even if the benchmarks show it's ok.

 

Well, aside from bricking machines, the other reason the Spectre patches are not ready is that it adds 20-50% drop in performance, separate from the drop with Meltdown. That is why the retpoline implementation is being worked on for implementation into Ubuntu and other Linux build patches, as it is one of the lower impacts on performance than other proposed fixes, although some have suggested it still effects performance more than Google claimed.

But, if you wind up having 20% performance hit on a 5GHz processor, that is the same as a 4GHz processor, which is a huge hit in the nuts to consumers.

 

I install Steam to a large drive separate from the OS and have been doing that way for years. I use the same drive and one shared installation between W7 and W10. If I clean install the OS, all I have to do is launch Steam once and it repairs itself, updates the registry, etc. and it is ready to use. Uplay the same way. Origin is kind of a pain in the butt. Origin is hit or miss on finding and activating the games already installed, while Steam and Uplay do it all with no hassle.

 

AMD CEO Lisa Su: Security Is 'Job One' For High-Performance Processors | CNBC

AMD's Mark Papermaster Talk Processors, Meltdown, Spectre, and more - Interview at CES 2018

 

DARPA-funded ‘unhackable’ computer could avoid future flaws like Spectre and Meltdown
UPDATE 1/9/2018: Microsoft Windows update "bricks" computers with AMD processor
January 8, 2018

A University of Michigan (U-M) team has announced plans to develop an “unhackable” computer, funded by a new $3.6 million grant from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

The goal of the project, called MORPHEUS, is to design computers that avoid the vulnerabilities of most current microprocessors, such as the Spectre and Meltdown flaws announced last week.*

The $50 million DARPA System Security Integrated Through Hardware and Firmware (SSITH) program aims to build security right into chips’ microarchitecture, instead of relying on software patches.*

The U-M grant is one of nine that DARPA has recently funded through SSITH.

Future-proofing

The idea is to protect against future threats that have yet to be identified. “Instead of relying on software Band-Aids to hardware-based security issues, we are aiming to remove those hardware vulnerabilities in ways that will disarm a large proportion of today’s software attacks,” said Linton Salmon, manager of DARPA’s System Security Integrated Through Hardware and Firmware program.

Under MORPHEUS, the location of passwords would constantly change, for example. And even if an attacker were quick enough to locate the data, secondary defenses in the form of encryption and domain enforcement would throw up additional roadblocks.

More than 40 percent of the “software doors” that hackers have available to them today would be closed if researchers could eliminate seven classes of hardware weaknesses**, according to DARPA.

DARPA is aiming to render these attacks impossible within five years. “If developed, MORPHEUS could do it now,” said Todd Austin, U-M professor of computer science and engineering, who leads the project. Researchers at The University of Texas and Princeton University are also working with U-M.

* Apple released today (Jan. 8) iOS 11.2.2 and macOS 10.13.2 updates with Spectre fix for Safari and WebKit, according to MacWorld. Threatpost has an update (as of Jan. 7) on efforts by Intel and others in dealing with Meltdown and Spectre processor vulnerabilities .

** Permissions and privileges, buffer errors, resource management, information leakage, numeric errors, crypto errors, and code injection.

UPDATE 1/9/2018: BLUE-SCREEN ALERT: Read this if you have a Windows computer with an AMD processor: Microsoft announced today it has temporarily paused sending some Windows operating system updates (intended to protect against Spectre and Meltdown chipset vulnerabilities) to devices that have impacted AMD processors. “Microsoft has received reports of some AMD devices getting into an unbootable state after installation of recent Windows operating system security updates.”

 

Spectre and Meltdown will be absent on these but what about new vulnerabilities. (I will name them Ragnarok and Avenger. Maybe cousins of Meltdown and Spectre.)

 

Isn't it Wonderful that our Military Industrial Complex can respond so quickly, having just heard about this months ago, and only announced publicly days ago, providing an already fully formed and funded project that is ready to go!!

 

Well it was already there and they act as if these vulnerabilities urged them to look for alternative which wasn't the case at all.

 

All the usual power players will look to this as a new opportunity to get more funding for existing and new projects, and attribute the immediacy of the requirement(s) for funding to address these "new discoveries".

 

Always security holes and backdoors will be existed for the consumer segments, and it will have many names.

 

Yes it is, even the Internet and GSM comes from the US Military Industrial Complex and alot more, but I'm afraid to say their hands for what is happening here or there is not so clean.

 

See this...
Critical security flaw enables WhatsApp servers to add people to private groups

 

"A University of Michigan (U-M) team has announced plans to develop an “unhackable” computer, funded by a new $3.6 million grant from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

The goal of the project, called MORPHEUS, is to design computers that avoid the vulnerabilities of most current microprocessors, such as the Spectre and Meltdown flaws announced last week.*"

"The $50 million DARPA System Security Integrated Through Hardware and Firmware (SSITH) program aims to build security right into chips’ microarchitecture, instead of relying on software patches.*

The U-M grant is one of nine that DARPA has recently funded through SSITH."

"DARPA is aiming to render these attacks impossible within five years. “If developed, MORPHEUS could do it now,” said Todd Austin, U-M professor of computer science and engineering, who leads the project. Researchers at The University of Texas and Princeton University are also working with U-M."

 

Govt introduces amendment to Data Protection Bill to shield security researchers

The government has introduced an amendment to the Data Protection Bill which seeks to ensure that security researchers who test security protocols will not be treated at par with hackers with criminal motives.
The new amendment to the Data Protection Bill will help security researchers conduct detailed security testing and assessments without fear of criminal prosecution or harassment by authorities.

 

FBI chief bats for ‘exclusive’ encryption backdoor for authorities

The FBI Director has once again called for encryption backdoors to be created in mobile devices so that authorities can exclusively use them to access data stored on citizens' devices.
Christopher Wray says encryption has weakened the FBI's ability to deal with cases involving terrorism, child exploitation, organised crime and trafficking.

 

there will be 0 updates from me, and btw, i have amd stocks so this is good for me. you see being a "fanboy" means brainwash oneself and completely blind to everything else. its better to leave options open and know whats best for oneself, though its still hands down 4.9ghz CFL on 6 core is so fast im glad i made the purchase, made my work load so snappy that 1680v2 at 4.3 cant compare. going for an AMD purchase it would been the same as 1680v2 all over again, a waste of money. zen2 however might be a bit different.

just waiting for that optane.

 

I can tell you on 4.1 with the TR it is very snappy No complaints here except when W10 decides to slow things down. Good thing about the AMD stock as Intel's has been taking a beating.

 

What we need to do is STOP SELLING OUR PATENTS TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR! The licensing off those patents could generate multitudes more for research funding and even flow over to general government funding. Instead, we sell the patents for pennies on the dollar for development, which then gives a private monopoly to a corporation. If we just create a licensing admin, and do free and fair licensing with the exceptions for National Security that are already on the books, we would be in a far better position!

 

This is good news. Even people that stumble upon unlocked open channels for a corporations website because they failed to adequately maintain their security have been charged with hacking, even though they reported it to the company immediately and employed no hacking techniques to try to gain access. They just inadvertently stumbled on it. Instead of a thank you, they got charged with hacking and were being prosecuted for a long prison sentence, which is ABSURD!

This is like Clinton advocating for that. IT IS A BAD IDEA. If you build in a backdoor, you CANNOT EXCLUDE ACCESS. This is building in a vulnerability.

So, instead of taking the security updates, which bring down I/O performance when having to access certain things, you will go unsecure for the faster speeds? Especially when the final speed hits, depending on workload, bring Intel to the same or slower speed than AMD, but with AMD having slightly more security? I'm confused. Hell, after this, I wish I had sold my skylake rig and replaced it with the equivalent costing Ryzen 1700/X rig! Speed means nothing without security!

 

Spectre Wreaks Havoc As iPhone 6 Performance Drops By 40% In Both Single And Multi-Core Benchmarks

“Looks like Apple’s close hardware and software integration isn’t enough to keep Spectre at bay”

 

My next machine will be Intel because there's a very high chance I'll manage to cram WiGiG inside it and make it work, while with AMD it's simply impossible.

^ This.

 

This makes NO SENSE! You can use WiGig with AMD. It is a matter of whether an 802.11ad comes WITH the motherboard. That has nothing to do with AMD vs Intel, but a production decision of the MB mfr. Not only that, 802.11ad is set to be replaced by 802.11ay this year with possible introduction of 802.11ax next year. You would still need to upgrade your router or access point to be able to utilize these new standards, which is even more cost. So, why do you say it isn't possible with AMD? Or are you talking notebooks with whitelists? And what makes you think AMD laptops WILL NOT adopt new adapters? I'm just not understanding the conclusion...

 

Intel canceled WiGig...I posted about that a while ago, I thought you responded in that thread.

Intel cancels WiGig cards and 802.11ad docking parts
http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-cancels-wigig-cards-and-802-11ad-docking-parts.html

There was a rumor Intel was going to pursue another high speed local area wireless tech instead, but I haven't seen anything since the announcement canceling the WiGig hardware, and program.

 

Makes sense with how short lived the standard is and the arrival of 802.11ax being the replacement for n/ac for distance at faster speeds, IIRC.

 

None of these backdoors are needed to stop crime - all they are doing is opening a vulnerability for you to be hacked and for your data to be taken by either governments or criminals (neither of which I would trust with it). The only way to stop serious crime, such as terrorism, is enforce the law properly, punish those who commit serious crimes, control who enters your country and to stop wasting police resources on stuff like "hate crimes" (thought crime) where they will spend all day looking at social media to threaten people with the wrong opinions (actually happens here in the UK). Stopping crime and terrorism has nothing to do with consumer electronics. If terrorists want to they can go completely offline and plan their attacks the old fashioned way, and if there is a vulnerability in a certain app or website they use they will just switch to another. The only reason these backdoors are added is to make people live in fear so they can be controlled by the government.

 

Up to date, all AMD laptops came with E-key WLAN slot, meaning it lacks DP wiring by default; even if WiGiG would work, DP functionality wouldn't, effectively crippling it. And then, there are possible driver issues and the fact that nobody seem to have ever tried plugging a WiGiG-enabled card into an AMD machine.

WiGiG comes in a form of WLAN adapter, not something on the motherboard. Ability to use this adapter, on the other hand, is primarily a matter of how exactly is m.2 WLAN slot wired on the motherboard, i.e. if it has second pcie lane, DP and so on wired to it, or not.

802.11ay is set to provide 20-40Gbit/s bandwidth. Single PCIe 3.0 lane provides 8Gbit/s, upcoming PCIe 4.0 will provide 16Gbit/s. Bottom line, current-gen laptops are simply incapable of providing full bandwidth for 802.11ay adapter; also, it may well come in a different form-factor, or just soldered.

All the while I have a WiGiG dock now, use it every day, and expect to continue doing so after getting a new machine in a few months.

Sure, I'll grab all those once they're out. But they are not available yet, so I'll have to make do with what is, until they are introduced.

See above. We know nothing about 802.11ay adapter except the fact that WLAN slot of laptops based on current architectures is incapable of providing full bandwidth to it. And anyway, I have 802.11ad wireless docking now, and expect to use it now - until the very moment something better is introduced. Up to date, there was not a single AMD machine wired correctly to accept available Intel WiGiG adapters. You expect me to gamble (not like somebody will share schematics for the latest machine with an outsider) that Ryzen devices introduced on CES a week ago suddenly, out of the blue, have the correct wiring for something that is already discontinued by Intel, and never worked in AMD machines to begin with? Sorry, but I'll pass.

Not a single modern notebook has WLAN whitelist. It was the thing of the past enforced by Lenovo, HP and a few other companies, thankfully it's gone. Only WWAN slots are whitelisted nowadays.

There was an update to that news that most people here seem to completely missed. Regardless, there are a lot of places to buy a compatible card, cable and antenna - so I literally don't care if Intel supplies them anymore, or not, as long as OS&driver support are still there.

 

I am confused a bit?? Are you basing your next cpu purchase on a wireless standard?

 

@Raiderman yes. I've been waiting for such functionality for years, it is simply perfect for my particular use case - and I'm not going to give it up, even if it's labeled as discontinued.

 

That's just really sad for my Alienware 14 machine [which was not even listed on Dells fix list when the Intel ME debacle hit the fan, even though it is vulnerable]

@hmscott: First off, thanks for the awesome work on informing everyone about the vulnerabilities. I do have one minor suggestion: Add in the 1st post the Security Advisories of each major OEM, if they have one. It's more easier for someone to find if their machine will be patched and when can they expect the firmware fix. So far I've managed to uncover these:

Lenovo Spectre and Meltdown Advisory

HP Spectre and Meltdown Advisory

HP Enterprise Spectre and Meltdown Advisory Spreadsheet

Gigabyte Spectre and Meltdown BIOS Updates

Dell Consumer Spectre and Meltdown Advisory

Dell Enterprise Spectre and Meltdown Advisory

 

many things to point out
- security breach? from whom?
- chances of it happen to my pc, close to nil
- speed slower than ryzen after patch? LOLLL. ryzen is that of ivybridge's IPC.
- after i patch it, which i probably won't, my performance would go up, because optane SSD benefit more from patching under windows 10.

i'll be happy with z390 freeing up extra pcie lanes and come with BT+ wifi built in. extra pcie lanes for SSDs.

 

So you don't own a router that currently supports ad, but you are building a system around it when those routers have been out for a year or so and the new standards will be dropping this year or next, plus the limitations on line of sight and distance, meaning you've been using 802.11ac this whole time. I am really confused here. Here is an example of an ad router: https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Nigh...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01M12RE4A

Most MB bundle a wireless card that fits like you said in an m.2. Most people did not waste time with the standard, which is why it died. MB manufacturers didn't want to waste the resources to increase costs of their boards by sticking on an expensive niche adapter on it, mostly due to historic sales data for those that bought AMD, which was bucked last year and AMD will likely receive more attention on their new boards versus ports from intel designs like this last year.

Next, what is your point on complaining on PCIe throughput. You put it on a slot and that 8 or 16 throughput BEATS your ad throughput. I actually pull out the wifi on my boards as security risks and hard line behind a firewall for the LAN, so I couldn't care what my phone connects at (which is currently AC). If you plan on upgrading once available, and the availability is this year after the new CPUs, the new AMD cpus and MBs likely support it and you'll get better performance.

Also, you realize PCIe 4.0 boards drop this year, right? As with final standard on DDR5 this summer.

This year is not the year to upgrade anything anyways, nor to make buying decisions on such a small factor. 2019 you get Ryzen 7nm, Intel 10nm+, PCIe 4 at minimum and PCIe5 standard finalized early in the year. DDR5 will start filtering down to consumer high end from the server markets. You have 7nm graphics from both Nvidia and AMD. I could go on and on. My point is you should change your mindset. Hell, even 802.11ax should be out then. We are talking about worlds of change and this is the start. The next big jump in tech is when we move beyond 3nm or 2nm around 2025-28, depending on miniaturization in that time-frame and developments on graphene and optical processing. So, I just don't understand basing it on wigig when I teamport 4x1Gb ports and you have affordable 10Gb cards now. Either way, that is only going to effect your LAN, as you are still limited by your ISP! I have a 28-port switch for the house, 1GB standard. So I would have to expend lots more to update to 10Gb, and it only effects MY LAN. Not an expense needed at this point. It won't help gaming, just helps on wireless, which if you are talking a desktop, is senseless if you are able to hard line.

 

This is the frustrating thing about using Intel technology now, it's all tainted with these problems, and it's hard to justify supporting / buying the broken CPU's to get the rest of the eco-system.

But, I understand, long fought hard won battles - sunk investments - of dollar and mind - are hard to lose and let go so far down the road, this is all going to upset lots of people in the long run.

Hopefully others will pick up the slack for the wireless developments we need moving forward as Intel falters. The same for everything else.

Intel needs to focus on the re-architecture of their core CPU's, solve the problem at the source, stop investing in other flights of fantasy, Intel need's to release new CPU's, motherboard chipsets, and get right with the world again.

 

Thank you for the links.

Many of the previous posts with links to commercial coverage have such lists in their articles, but it would be good to have the vendor update links here too, I'll add these you supplied to the 1st post - and hopefully others will post some too - and I will add them to the 1st post too. Thanks again.

 

I'm using 802.11ad for a wireless dock with 3x HDDs, quality sound card & stereo system, and occasionally a TV and/or other peripherals. For internet connectivity, I indeed use 802.11ac - and see no point in using 802.11ad for that. When I fancy a second monitor, I use my second convertible in stand mode for it, wirelessly via Windows connect feature - and it works great.

The only wire I usually connect to my convertible is charging; I also occasionally connect headphones, and a cooling pad with integrated USB hub and (wireless) mouse connected to it when gaming, but that's it. I like my devices compact and neat, and don't own any desktops - while you don't seem to factor these traits in your buying decisions at all. The only device connected via ethernet in my home is RPi3 Nextcloud server.

Some people prefer sitting in one place when working at home - but I don't. The whole room is my workshop; I prefer standing in front of my working table (of appropriate height) when doing serious work which benefits from second monitor and/or additional hardware, while sitting in a comfy chair or sofa when doing more relaxed stuff, especially reading or drawing - both in portrait device orientation - or sometimes just walking across the room with the device in my hands. Wires simply take away my freedom, and waste my time for no good reason.

Before getting a WiGiG dock, every time I wanted to access my external HDDs or broadcast audio through stereo system with zero lag and best quality, I had to get to the table where the dock stands and put the convertible in (optionally connecting stereo system to the dock instead of BT4.0 receiver). WiGiG dock solved both those problems, with the added bonus of connecting TV wirelessly, again without any lag or image degradation; despite what official documents say about its range, I am able to use it across a large room without any problems, even with TV connected to it - unless someone or something is standing between convertible and docking station, or I am covering WiGiG antenna location with my hand while holding it in tablet mode.

The dock and parts for upgrading my machine ended up costing me exactly $100 after selling the replaced/unnecessary parts - thanks to very expensive shipping fee I paid for the docking station; would spend even less if I was in US. That's cheaper than buying any TB3, and most USB-C docks. If I won't be able to make WiGiG work with my next machine, I will have to invest in both a NAS and Bluetooth 5.0 hardware - the latter wasn't even available when I assembled my WiGiG setup - in hopes that the experience won't be much worse after paying noticeably more.

 

See, I went with the NAS route. Just simpler for my usage. I sit down to use my devices at my workstation. I don't pace as much as I used to, but also do not have a need. Now I just need more HDDs for my NAS, but that is neither here nor there.

But, I am still not convinced that it is worth sticking with Intel. I've stated in other threads that Intel is about to hit a hard wall and other vendors will lap them for various reasons. They are bleeding cash in many areas and have reshaped how the departments look making it harder to see their losses and expenditures in recent years. Besides that, you have Broadcom and Qualcom working to accomplish the same (I say with an intel server NIC in two builds, which makes me, in a way, a hypocrite I suppose). But that is the thing, if you try to make it proprietary to lock people into other products made by you, you are literally trying to limit competition and acting as a monopoly. To me, there is nothing more disgusting. Apple acts similarly, but I hate them for more reasons than just that. LOL!

But, as I said, you are jumping the gun on your commitments without looking at what is over the horizon and the upcoming changes in tech. It is like those that push Intel Optane. Very little benefit for many, huge cost, and the more consumer based ones are so small that they are better used as cache drives. Meanwhile, when Samsung drops their equivalent that is cheaper and open to all platforms, who do you think will win? Not only that, since completing the work, Micron and Intel have dissolved their joint venture recently. So I'm really finding it hard to speak well on Intel with this breach.

We will see how it plays out, but I think I've laid my arguments out, here and elsewhere, as to why Intel is going to no longer have its magic. You may want to keep an eye open moving forward, though, as things can change drastically, including support.

 

https://www.techspot.com/article/1556-meltdown-and-spectre-cpu-performance-windows/

3 to 4% decrease across the board for most benchmarks. NVME slowdowns of 30 to 40%

 

That speaks to, now that the OS is gimped due to the kernel exploit, what the slowdown is due to the horrible design flaw. It also makes Optane now a better value than it has ever been. Without this, Optane is very niche. We will have to see if the KPTI fix will have to remain after the flaw is addressed. I may need to send a request that he runs the impact on AMD. Could tell us the level of sandbagging M$ is doing to try to maintain intel value.

 

Researcher Exploits Intel Remote Management Security In 30 Seconds But It’s Not What You Think-Hothardware.com



"To mitigate the chances of this exploit being used, F-Secure says that a strong password for AMT needs to be used or AMT should be disabled completely if possible."

Intel's response to the issue was to remind users to follow its guidelines for changing MEBx passwords and points fingers at system manufacturers for being lax, and not mitigating the potential attack. An Intel spokesperson responded to Ars Technica, writing:

We appreciate the security research community calling attention to the fact that some system manufacturers have not configured their systems to protect Intel Management Engine BIOS Extension (MEBx). We issued guidance on best configuration practices in 2015 and updated it in November 2017, and we strongly urge OEMs to configure their systems to maximize security. Intel has no higher priority than our customers’ security, and we will continue to regularly update our guidance to system manufacturers to make sure they have the best information on how to secure their data.​

 

It's completely up to the Corporate IT staff deploying the AMT laptops to preset a strong password on BIOS access(es) - removing the default "admin" password set out of the box.

Intel and vendors can't ship the laptops with a "strong password" set out of the box, otherwise noone in the IT staff would be able to login and change it to their own password.

The laptop needs to ship with BIOS and AMT / MBEX passwords set to known defaults so the new owner can set their own strong passwords before giving it to their staff.

This isn't a security hole unless the IT staff doesn't do their job.

 

They had to prime the pump to sell that. Maybe it was not ready to go until a couple of weeks ago, so they had to hold off on creating the perception of crisis and causing widespread panic. Timing and need are everything, especially when you have something new to sell.

 

I wonder what performance decrease Nvidia to get with updated drivers.
Also:

 

I've not seen any performance decrease with the latest NVidia drivers, they're the same in 3DMark benchmarks & in game benchmarks that I have.

 

390.65? Good to know, thanks.