Failed CPU upgrade ... I'd like to understand why it didn't work

Hi guys.

I've posted about my failure to upgrade a Gateway ML3108b in the below threads, and so far no one was able to explain why I've failed to upgrade the CPU in this laptop:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=275752
http://www.notebookforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=77
http://www.wimsbios.com/forum/topic10384.html

To summarise. The ML3108b was sold with a Mobile Sempron 3400+ (socket S1). This laptop has the same motherboard and the same BIOS as the MT3418 (Turion Mk36), MX3410 (Turion TL50), MT3419 (Turion TL50), and the MT3422 (Turion TK53) to name few.
I tried to upgrade this laptop with the following CPUs: MK36, TL50, TL52, and TL60. All those CPUs were in full working order. The MK36 sort of worked but no the others. When I installed the TL50, TL52, or the TL60 on the ML3108b the laptop:

Switches ON fine
I can access the BIOS
The BIOS Identifies the above CPUs correctly
The laptop doesn't load Windows. It displays the following message instead:
"FATAL ERROR !!! Please change CPU!!!".​

1- I was told the following the BIOS I had in that laptop doesn't support the above listed CPUs.
What I don't understand is that if they are not supported then how comes they were correctly recognised?

2- I was told that the CPUs I tested had a new revision which was not codded in my BIOS. I checked and I found that there is only one revision for the TL50. So i don't think it's the BIOS.
I know that sometimes wifi are whitelisted. Is there such a thing for CPUs too?

3- What is the exact purpose of CPUMicrocodes in the BIOS? Is it to list the CPU with its correct name instead of 'CPU Unknown'?

Thanks

 

I can't comment on the Gateway, but I know Lenovo whitelists CPU in the BIOS. Off variants like the T2450 or T5200 won't work. They won't POST with them installed. I'm not sure why yours does. If you've got the latest BIOS and it doesn't, you're probably hosed. As to the why, your guess is as good as mine.

 

Thanks for answering the whitelist questions.

So am I right assuming that those CPUs are not whitelisted?

 

I really don't know about it to give you an informed answer. Perhaps Gateway does it differently than Lenovo. I only know about the ThinkPads because I've done it before.

 

It seems that your case with Lenovo is not unique. I too tried to downgrade the CPU in a Compaq NX6110 from a Pentium M to a Celeron M and the laptop failed to post (black screen + spinning fan and nothing else)

 

Sadly I have no explanation for you, but I've actually come across a similar issue on a Dell Inspiron 1501. As far as I know, all 1501s have the same motherboard with the same chipset, but one board that shipped with a Sempron 3500+ refused to take a TL50.

Dell doesn't whitelist processors, and the BIOS was of the latest version, but while everything seems to light up and spin up properly, I never got even got into BIOS. No obvious error messages or post codes, just a blank display.

Never figured out how to get that one working. Other 1501s that I've had come with Semprons ran the TL50 and a couple others just fine. I don't really think it's a BIOS issue, but some more fundamental problem with the chipset... but all speculation.

 

If the chipset is the same it should work? right? I'm not an expert too

I was told that it is likely that my upgrade failed because the stepping/revision number of the processors I've used is different from those codded in the ML3108 BIOS. The thing is:
1- I found only a version of the TL50
2- If those CPUs were not recognised the laptop would not have posted? right?

 

Might be a longshot, but have you tried re-installing the OS, either as a reformat, on a spare drive, or a separate partition? Changing processors on the OS without a clean install has caused me issues in the past, only on rare occasion though.

 

I agree you can try a Clean Install.
It could be the MK and TL use different CPU driver or APIC (Single Core Processor vs Dual Core Processor interrupts) configuration in Windows therefore a reformat is needed.
You can also try uninstalling the processor driver from Windows Device Manager then shutdown install the new Processor then bootup.

 

Did you Clear the CMOS (after updating the BIOS)by taking the battery out of the motherboard for a minute or so.

Sorry if its a dumb question but I didnt read any of the links.

 

Nice try guys

The CMOS was cleared though it was not required since the BIOS was detecting those CPUs correctly. Clearing the CMOS battery didn't help.

I couldn't re-intall Windows nor use a Linux Live CD. Removing the harddrive also didn't help. The only thing I could do after this message "FATAL ERROR !!! Please change CPU!!!" was displayed on the screen was to restart the laptop.

I chatted about this with a couple of Gateway's tech support guys but as expected their response was we're sorry we can't help since Gateway doesn't recommond CPU upgrade.

 

May be relevant to your interests.

Not exactly helpful, but hey, you're sure not the only one.

 

It's possible that the manufacturer did this on purpose, as a way of "convincing" you to buy a new laptop instead of upgrading your old one. Of course, you're not going to buy another one of the same brand after this experience, but most people or companies who would try to pull this on someone aren't going to think about that.

 

Thanks for the link but I think my problem is sligthly different. The laptop stops before loading Windows. The error message appears before Windows' Logo screen.
The motherboard on the ML3108 was sold in other laptop that were equiped with a TL50.

They probably did but the question is how? is it with a whitelist?

How many revesion of the TL50 have been ever made?

TMDTL50HAX4CT
Is there another model?

 

im fairly certain it has to do with the stepping codes that are programmed into the bios. the MK36 & the 3400 have a common stepping code(NEBAF) but the tl series procs dont. i had a similar problem with a Dell 1501 assuming that it was all the same, but they are not. i tired every dual core proc i could find but none of them worked
i would venture to say that the particular board only supports single core procs, even though it uses the same bios revision.

 

This is why I asked if there is any other TL50 apart from the TMDTL50HAX4CT?
Because if there is more than one revision for the TL50 then you're theory is right. But if there is only one than I'm back to square one.

I found only one revision for the TL50? is there any others?

 

I don't know about AMDs, but I know with Intels there are more than one version. If you put the wrong version in a ThinkPad, it won't post.

 

Do you have a copy of the BIOS?
Maybe you can try to modify it to override the "Fatal Error" message.

 

there is this version idk if its different.... TMDTL50CTWOF...but there are 5 different steeping codes that were made with this CPU(tl50), none of which use the afore mentioned stepping code that your 3400 had

 

The thing is I was able to find only one version of the TL50 online. It is like there is only one revison of this CPU ever made

I do have a coppy of the BIOS. I've located the error message which is stored on "STRINGS0.ROM". This file seems to contain strings only. So I don't know which section of the BIOS file I have to override... any suggestions

Any link to those 5 different steppings?

TMDTL50CTWOF and TMDTL50HAX4CT point to the same version/revision. TMDTL50HAX4CT is the CPU part number
TMDTL50CTWOF is the box number containing TMDTL50HAX4CT

I got the above info from here: http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K8/AMD-Turion%2064%20X2%20Mobile%20technology%20TL-50%20-%20TMDTL50HAX4CT%20%28TMDTL50CTWOF%29.html

 

I think inside PBE there is a error check setting...
One of the tables there should be some error list.

 

I'll check and post back

 

I can't find the option where to turn the 'CPU error check' off

 

Errors to ignore...
Errors to wait on... "Other error"

I'm not familiar with what you have above, but assuming you're able to edit the BIOS with it, can you move "other error" to the "ignore" group?

 

Can you boot windows to safe mode? If so remove the CPU, chipset and other pertinant drivers and then reboot for windows PnP to get them back for you............

 

I can't move the options around, but I think I can edit their values. To activate 'other errors' I think I need to put a '*' on the value field. <s>One thing I'm not sure about is the meaning of 0000 in the value field of 'errors to ignore'. Does this also need to be edited? what should be its new value?</s> This field seems to update automatically when the value of 'other errors' is set.

The error message is displayed before Windows attemps to boot. It seems that it is BIOS related and not OS related

 

If it truely is the after bios it is most likely the socket. The S1's have the original and then the s1g1, s1g2 and s1g3. The Turions like the TL50 ar either s1g1 or possibly s1g2. You can boot to bios as at the time the CPU is defauted to its lowest point of speed etc but when it tries to kick into high gear and enable features you are dead meat............

 

The error message is displayed by the BIOS. If you go back few posts you would see that I've located the error message inside the BIOS file

All AMD Turion X2 CPUs use socket S1g1. This is true for all turions between the TL50 and TL68. The S1g2 is for Turion X2 Ultra, and the S1g3 is for Turion II X2

For most laptops, when they are turned ON the CPU runs at its full speed. A CPU slows down when windows boots

 

K8 as shown Here can be s1g1 or s1g2.

the older semprons were just, for the most part, the plain jane S1 (mobile semprons seemed to be s1g1). Your motherboard either by the socket or revision apparently is not going to support Turions.

I am not saying it isn't the bios, I believe you when you say it is. Just because a universal bios has the cpu in its tables does not mean the main board will support it.

When you go to BIOS page it loads without alot of the extended paramaters from the cmos tables. This alows you to get to bios, like on a desktop where there are alot of timing options, to set them up before the system crashs because the enhanced settings.

Again these are all vague statments, better compatability might be seen from knowing the semprons original stepping code (ie: the mobile sempron). No matter how compatible it may be just the increase in power draw was enough to cripple the cpu under load.

I have alot of experience with AMD systems and upgrading can be a real crap shoot with them. I'm not saying Intel is any better but it is usually more defined.

I did some googling around and one person was stating a success with only 1 memory stick in with an MK. This to me is highly indicative of either the memory controler or just that little extra power available to the CPU not powering the extra memory stick.

Good luck with it but it sounds like a lost cause at least with those generation chips. The only thing I could suggest is if you can find one, a TK-42. No garenty but they also show s1g1 and s1g2 for the athlon 64 X2 but at 20w TPD if it is a power issue that may get you by.........

Edit; Ive seen and had AMD's where the upgrade was a no go just because the power system would not step up or down to the required voltage. Not the sockets fault but the mainboards power design that was fixed in another revision. So as I said it can be a real crap shoot..........

 

CPU-World is not as detailed as wikipedia. Plz check this link: AMD Turion list
In the above link S1 is actually S1G1, and as you can see TL50 to TL68 are all socket S1G1 only. You can add to the list of the S1G1 the TK53, TK55, and TK57.

Sempron wize not all of them are S1G1. Sempron 3200+, 3400+, and 3500+ have been produced for socket S1G1 only. Sempron 3600+ and above have been made for socket S1G1 and S1G2.

If I've used an S1G2 or S1G3 CPU the laptop wouldn't have switched on in the first place because of the difference in the pin-out and pins-signals between tthe difference generations of Turions.

I agree. For instance the bios might support a CPU but the chipset might not support it. But again:
1- If the CPU was not supported by either the BIOS or the Chipset the laptop wouldn't have switched ON
2- The motherboard inside the laptop I'm talking about (same gateway product number) is sold with other Gateway laptops that are sold with a TL50, TL56, and a TK53. This proofs that the issues is not hardware related

The TK42 is an S1G1 CPU. If you look around the net you would see few examples of upgrade on Acer/ eMachines laptop(s) from the TK42 to a TL CPU (Check AMD own CPU forum).
The TK42 is really similar to a TL50. I think the only difference between them is the production process. The TL50 has a DTP of 30W and was procuded with a 90nm process. The TK42 production process is likely to be 65nm which would have allowed the DTP to drop to 20W.


I did some digging and found the following:
1- The motherboard on the ML3108 is the same as in all the following models: MT3303, MT3304, MT3305, MT3418, MT3419, MT3421, MT3422, MT3423, MX3311, MX3410, MX3412, MX3412, MX3414, MX3416, MX3417, and MX3422.
Each of the above models is sold with one CPU option and one only. The CPUs used on the above models are: Sempron 3500+ and 3600+, Turion MK36 and MK38, Turion X2 TL50, TL56, and TK53.

2- Although all the above laptop have the same BIOS, and same motherboard, those with the Turions X2 (i.e. TL50, TL56, and TK53) don't have a link to for the BIOS file in their drivers and support webpage.

3- The BIOS file contains an ID string for the MT3418 which sold with a Turion MK36.


MY THEORY:
The 'MT3418' tag on the BIOS file allows the BIOS to display the an error message when the CPU is upraded to a Turion X2

 

It is also possible the one CPU boards are not capable of scalable voltages to the CPU and could be hardwired. If it is bios only though the it could very well be hackable................

 

it would be interesting to get the BIOS of one of the laptops that support the Turion X2 and compare it to the one in the ML3108 / MT3418.

I've looked everywhere but couldn't fine any. I'll try to post in the Gateway forum and see if anyone is willing to back their BIOS and email it to me.