Forget Intel Ivy Bridge, Haswell on the way

Ok, seems I didn't make one of these. I have threads on AMD Fusion, Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, Broadwell, but none on Haswell. Well, here it is!



Launches in March 2013 featuring:

• 22nm Processors
• 13W/17W for ULV Dual Core
• 37W/47W/57W for standard voltage Dual and Quad Cores
• New FMA Instructions
• New cache design
• Advanced Power Saving features
• 3D Tri-Gate Transistors
• Double the battery life of current processors
• Launches June 2013

 

It's a never ending race, one reason i never understood the age old question "should i buy now or just wait 6 months?" if you're waiting around for the next best thing you'll be in a perpetual waiting game, something better, faster, smaller, lighter, quicker, cooler, quieter, etc. etc. is always just around the corner.

 

Right. GPU's tend to update every 9 months, and CPU's every 12. Sometimes there's more significant improvements than others. It can't hurt to wait a month if something is on the fence, but if you're waiting 3, 4, 5 months, then you clearly don't need a new laptop anyhow. I usually buy a new laptop every 18-24 months. Right now I'm looking at about 18 months going from my current Sager to a Sandy Bridge Sager. I'm hoping to get three years out of this with a CPU and GPU upgrade in 18-24 months this time around, so maybe pick up the tick on the opposite side of Haswell.

 

For me the best proposition is always to get the tock, thats why I always plan my purchases around those.

 

That's the way I tend to think, but when I look at my purchases, they've all been ticks. lol

 

But I got my Gulftown 970 for 240 dollars! Oh how I hate you Intel, every 2 years I gotta buy whole new stuffs..

 

No you don't. They just make you think you do (Intel's marketing at work). Be happy with what you have, you have a nice system already.

@Jay; atleast we finally got a thread about something you are actually waiting for.

 

lol I'm just kidding man...yes my i7 rig only plays games...way overkill. No more builds at least til Haswell/Rockwell.

How much better can Intel make their IGP...

 

Big question: IGP. I will be getting a Sandy Bridge version of the 3820TG, but if the IGP in Haswell is on par with a 5650 then I don't need a discrete card for my Haswell notebook.

 

Oh, you say that now, but as media/games grow more demanding, that will likely change

 

Yes, once I send in my 1830T to acer for them to replace the annoyingly loud heat sink and fan, I will be set until 2013.

 

I know, I know, but that's why I'm also building a new Haswell/Rockwell desktop . The notebook will be relegated to casual gaming (mostly SC2, DIII, BF3, CSS, TF2).

 

so how is the build going? I find it interesting to bet in the future market

 

Will build it, my bad for not wording it properly. Currently I have a Concore E6600 with a 5770 on my desktop and an Acer 1410. Both are aging (the 1410 was a mistake anyways, should've gotten an Asus UL30Vt).

 

I have a Q9550 and GTX 260 in my desktop. My new laptop will blow it away, lol. And I had an Acer 1410. It was a great little machine. The UL30Vt at the time was like twice the cost of the Acer 1410. So not a bad deal.

But I wouldn't bet on future tech. A 5650 is half way decent now but in two years it'll be low end tech. Your gaming menu will most likely change too.

 

I don't really mind playing on lower settings, I had a 1800GTO2 which was flashed to XT PE speeds before I got the 5770 last December. Also the 1410 couldn't do much casual gaming, I fired up BF2 and it barely got above 20 frames. I guessed it was because of the low FSB on the SU3500 because I have heard of other 4500MHDs play it reasonably well.

BTW how is the quad? I got the E6600 right around before the Q6600 came out, so I always feel like I missed out on something bigger .

 

my only hope is that the new 6600 series is faster than my current 4670m, since that the 5650 was about the same performance. I need to get a new notebook

 

You're in luck. But I'd expect the power draw to be on par with the 57x0 series (around 20W-30W); infact the 480 MADD count is 96 shaders, a whole 16 more than the old Redwood cores.

Now I can't remember which card had 480 shaders, was it the 3870/3850? Because if it is so, the 6770 would be on par with a desktop 8800/9800 GT. The 3870 was slow because a lot of work was taken up by the shaders, in the 4800 series, ATi moved a lot of post processing (AA mainly) over to the ROPs; with that limitation gone, you should see a significant speed boost.

Actually I think that the 5670 also uses 96 shaders, or a very high clock, it performs very close to the 9800 GT. That's amazing because the 8800 GTX took up entire mouthfuls of power back in it's heyday, and now we get the same power in a 15" notebook!

 

You mean Im out of luck. That thing will give me something around 5-10 fps in games, if it is so. The 4670 was pretty much on par with the 5650, and since that I oc mine quite a bit, I get very much playable frame rates in high at most games. Nvidia has to step up its game in the middle range, AMD rules that thing, there has to be competition

the gpus that have comparable power to the gt 9800 are the 5800 and the gtx 460m

 

Yeah, that really won't give much of any improvement. Nvidia is unfortunately focusing more on low-end (Tegra) and high-end computing; it was exciting back in the GeForce 4000 and Radeon 9000 days, now it's just interesting for a couple of weeks and then dull for the rest of the year...

 

Sometimes on laptop GPU's they focus on powersaving. This means a newer GPU might give you similar FPS at stock, but have a ton more overhead if you can unlock it for overclocking.

dfor example, people have gotten 3DMark's above 9,000 with OC'd 5650's, despite the stock scores not being much of an upgrade from earlier models. Same thing with the new generation NVidea's.

 

I know some have mentioned that Ivy Bridge will be a possible upgrade for Sandy Bridge Motherboards; will this also be true of Haswell chips (Haswell on SB boards) ?

Thanks!

 

Doubtful..

 

probably not, the chip would have changed too much.

And I sincerely dont believe in the ability of oneself to replace the SB with ivy, the socket would more than probably have changed, this is due to conform with the more than probable shrink in the die size.

The difference of the die in SB and arrandale is huge, my guess is something around 10-20% smaller for the former.

Aside that intel has a policy of using and upgrading the same chipset. Those are incremental changes so that they can churn out one cpu series a year without hitting serious production problems. An example of a problem that the arrandale/clarksdale chipset had was the inability to handle 23.94fps, it only could handle properly 24fps; and this was brought to the new SB chipset as well.

 

Expect ability to upgrade from Haswell to Rockwell only.

 

What manufacturers usually make laptops that are able to be upgraded, for example when I buy a Sandy Bridge laptop, will I be able to upgrade to Ivy Bridge on any of them?

Deciding between the Lenovo X220 or the Sony SA at this point, going to get interesting when they actually come out.

 

Forget this life, Afterlife on the way...

 

If Intel follows past trends, then you should be able to upgrade to Ivy Bridge on either. What would be most likely to prevent it (apart from Intel changing sockets again or something similar), would be lack of BIOS updates from the manufacturer, and that's something that isn't really predictable. It's not something we'd expect, but it could happen anyway if the manufacturer decides to "abandon" that line for whatever reason.

 

Not the X220 if it is soldiered like the X201.

 

Oh, is it? I admit to not having looked up the models. Still, the point is that there shouldn't be any issues from Intel, if they follow past trends. The problem will be down to individual manufacturers and models.

 

but will it run crysis 3 4D ultraHD @999fps AA888x on?

correction: this is due to intel wanting to suck every dolar out of you. there's no need whatsoever for new sockets. the justification they use is not legit. they could use the same socket without any problem but then you wouldn't buy another motherboard and you wouldn't spend more $$$.
it's the same with notebook manufacturers and MXM. if they implement they'll lose.

 

pfff not at all.

most users dont upgrade their pcs, they just buy new. Including desktops

You could argue that since intel has already researched most of what is the upcoming ivy bridge and is doing their production tests, why couldnt they just release it now? or something along the lines of Q2?

The idea is to recoup research costs.

MXM is a good thing, but the problem with laptops is the implementation of smaller and lighter solution. Which do you think would be smaller:

1) an mobo with a mxm board
2) an mobo with a gpu in the same board

Obviously is the 2nd.

MXM is a good thing for enthusiast. However to upgrade a card in a said laptop is not something done lightly, and with the constant changes from the MXM standards we are always going to hit some problem in the upgrade path. Users want to upgrade to something after a year or 2, some even 3. The standard would be fairly different from them, thus voiding the ability of oneself to change something. So MXM is trying to milk consumers?

Again not at all.

 

Intel doesn't need to change sockets all the time, AMD seems to do well with maintaining the same sockets for years. And recouping research costs is a bunch of bunk. They have deep pockets and have been doing this for years and make huge profits.

An I don't know why they couldn't commonize / implement MXM. I mean desktop motherboards maintain a standard for a decade at a time. PCI, AGP, PCI-Express.

 

And AMD has always been 2nd leg to Intel? They don't really have anything for the enthusiast, and their Phenom mobile chips get embarrassed by Core i5.

They don't implement MXM because 90% of the market only needs IGP. If everyone gamed and wanted to buy a gaming laptop, MXM would definitely more prevalent, though certain manufacturers have been using some form of MXM for a long time (Sager, Alienware, ASUS, Acer) but only for certain models.

 

without the change in sockets its difficult to maintain certain power characteristics, you will be tied to a certain placement of the components and etc.

AMD can keep the same socket because its using the same type of chip for quite a while, the K10 and K10.5

And as I said the MXM leads to a bulkier pc, aside the need to upgrade to higher powered card would depend inevitably by the power characteristics of the mobo, and the list goes on...

 

Does anyone know if haswell will offer native octo-core with HT (16 threads) for the mobile segment?

 

Anantech just publish The Ultrabook: Meet the New Thin and Light Intel Notebook, A Changing Thermal Target: Discussing Haswell

Atm Sandy Bridge E max cores will be 6, maybe with revision of their Extreme edition line we could see 8core, or probably they will save it for Ivy Bridge E, but my guess is they will limit the 8cores to extreme editions only, maybe Haswell might bring 8 cores to their E line none extreme, based on my pure speculation, i would say maybe we will see 6 cores mobiles cpus on haswell, but 8 cores i doubt it.

 

Haswell New Instruction Descriptions Now Available! – Intel Software Network Blogs - Intel® Software Network

interesting thing is a comment posted(i saw a thread in intel forum).

This is downright revolutionary. Finally the SIMD instruction set will feature a vector equivalent of every (relevant) scalar instruction. This allows parallelizing lots of code loops, in theory offering up to an eightfold increase in throughput computing performance. GPGPU is history, as Haswell will prove that mainstream CPUs can combine the power of GPUs into a superior homogeneous architecture.

 

Intel Says Haswell Coming in 2013, Will Rival Today's Discrete Graphics via Cnet

 

2013??! I thought Haswell was supposed to be coming next year.

Well, I just found this article at DailyTech. DailyTech - Intel Says Haswell Coming in 2013, Will Rival Today's Discrete Graphics
Haswell, coming in 2013, will rival today's discrete graphics. 2 years too late, eh Intel?

 

Right on time, Trinity is supposed to have a Barts-like GPU, and if Intel's projections are right on the die, they should have something that rivals today's Barts performance-wise. Don't know if AMD will incorporate something like the ring bus, which dramatically reduces lag between the CPU cores and the GPU, so they still might be at a disadvantage.

 

right on time. means i won't have to buy a gpu to play all the nice free or near free steam games that are available by then on the cheap

 

When they say today's discrete GPUs, what do they mean? A GT 520 or a GeForce 580?

Also, are we going to see a lot of different speeds for this SoC, or just one or two?

And will these small form factors still run at today's performance level? Will we see a frequency range reduction to accommodate the smaller form factor? Just some of the questions running through my head.

 

well, the way they state it they assume the todays top league. maybe not the highest end, but those that are capable of playing todays games nicely.

and yes, they focus on getting the same performance to smaller levels next, increasing efficiency. all documented. clock range should go, as it is now: from a bit above 1ghz to around 4ghz. depending on usage.

 

What past trends are you talking about? And intel?
This really doesn't make sense as motherboard upgrades are entirely up to the manufacturer.

I believe the MSI gx660 is a laptop that can currently be upgraded with a gx680 motherboard.
MSI does seem to do this often, using the same motherboard layout for an old AMD based machine and one that supports core 2 quads.

I have checked the Clevo p150hm and w860cu, unfortunately they share a similar chassis but don't have the same motherboard layout at all.
Although, Clevo does occasionally do the same.

Other than that you will occasionally see some HP and Dell business laptops (elitebook and precision series) that end up using the same motherboard layout, unfortunately, this hasn't really been happening with past few chipsets as they have finally been leaving 16:10.

If anyone is talking about upgrading the actual chipset on the board, do you have any idea what you're getting into? That takes a BGA infrared resoldering machine. To be able to upgrade a laptop motherboard and in doing so its chipset is extremely rare and if you value these things you have to look hard or make some well estimated foresights.

 

I was talking about the CPUs that complement the stated chipsets.

I'm guessing its a no anyways.

 

Good guess. It is extremely unlikely that Haswell will be compatible with Sandy Bridge chipsets. It appears to be a rather thorough revision and Intel has never placed a high priority on backwards compatibility.

 

While backwards compatibility is admirable in a photographic system - as long as it does not impede/hinder newer/better technologies - backwards compatibility in computer platforms that can change so fast and dramatically is in itself a hinderance to progress.

Thank God Intel knows where to be ruthless and chop off ties to the 'useless' past!

 

Switching the socket all the time doesn't sit well with me though. I mean really?

 

Price of (real) progress I guess - no real way around it.

I'm so glad automobiles weren't backwards compatible with being pulled by a horse as a 'compatibility' option for the farmers/ranchers...