HD DVD vs. Blu-ray: Battle of The Next Generation Storage Devices

Recently, I've noticed some interest from members about the competing next-gen optical storage devices out there. I am posting an in-depth research paper on this topic here to share with you guys in the hopes that it will either 1) enlighten you as to how HD DVD's and Blu-ray discs work or 2) showcase the strengths and weaknesses of each format so as to help you make a decision on a future purchase. I did this did research using readily available resources online and a couple of books, so if anything doesn't look right let me know and I'll promptly pass the blame to whichever source it's from. Oh yeah, and I'll change the info if you've got proof, then credit you at the bottom It's a long read, so feel free to use "ctrl+f" to find keywords you may be looking for.

Also, just a heads up for other people using HTML tables in vBulletin: all carriage returns (aka when you press "Enter" at the end of a sentence) are detected as newlines, so when you make the tables make sure you have no carriage returns between any of the tags. Otherwise your table will look weird and be spaced far apart from the text above it.

Anyway, without further ado:

HD DVD vs. Blu-ray



"Battle of The Next Generation Storage Devices"

By: {NBR}Gator​

Abstract

The purpose of this paper is to review and analyze the two competing standards for the next generation of high density optical disk storage. This paper will review different models, methods, and applications of both HD DVD and Blu-ray technologies. A comprehensive review and examination of both standards will first be presented to fully prepare the reader for deciding which option to employ on their PC's, laptops, or home entertainment systems. This paper will also examine the science behind both standards, most notedly the application of the laser beam. Although both standards use the laser to read digital data from the different disk formats, the format and type of the lasers used are different for each standard. This has a tremendous impact on the performance and quality of optical storage, as we shall see.

Table of Contents

1.Introduction
2.The Laser
3.HD DVD
4.Blu-ray
5.Comparisons
6.Conclusions
7.References

1. Introduction

Ever since the advent and economic success of the Compact Disc in late 1982, researchers and manufacturers have been persistent in their pursuit of a way to increase the storage capacity of this media type. Then, in 1997, storage capabilities took a giant step forward with the adoption of the DVD standard. However, these standards did not come to dominate the market without a fight: DVD for example, only came about after a show of brinkmanship between two very powerful media camps. On one side stood Philips and Sony with the MultiMedia Compact Disc standard, designed to be marketable as a direct descendant of the original Compact Disc. On the other side stood Toshiba and Time-Warner with the Super Density disc, which featured slightly better storage capacity. However, in order to avoid a costly format war much like the one between VHS and Betamax in the late 1970's, the two sides compromised and united under the DVD standard. Today, with the transition from analogue to high definition digital video and audio, another showdown of optical disc standards is taking place, this time between media newcomers HD DVD and Blu-ray. And this time, there will be no compromise.

2. The Laser


To understand the different sides in the upcoming format war, we must first understand the science behind the standards. The most important aspect of any optical disc reader is its method of reading information from a disc---the word “optical” may give hint as to the method used here. Presenting the Laser, an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. The laser works by exciting then emitting a coherent stream of photons of a specific wavelength towards a target in a narrowly focused beam. The underlying scientific principles of the laser reside in Albert Einstein's explanations of the photoelectric effect. The physical constructs necessary for producing a laser beam consists of a laser gain medium, an energy pump, and a resonant optical cavity. This usually means a crystal or dye for the gain medium, a flash bulb much like the one on a camera for the energy pump, and two or more mirrors.

First, a short explanation of the quantum electric phenomenon known as the photoelectric effect. Originally observed by Heinrich Hertz, this phenomenon occurs when light is emitted from matter after the absorption of electromagnetic radiation---including the emitted light itself. In order for the photonic release of energy to occur, Einstein postulated that the energy in the photons---proportional to the light's wavelength---must be enough to overcome the subatomic bonds of an electron to an atom in the material of the matter that it hits. This is the reason for the “s” in laser; the lasing material must be stimulated by light of sufficient energy. The energy pump, usually a flash tube designed to emit a brief but intense burst of light, is responsible for starting the lasing reaction by injecting this light into the lasing tube which holds the gain medium.

The material used as the gain medium must be very carefully chosen so as to allow the resonating nature of a lasing reaction to occur. Usually made of crystal or glass, the gain medium is a material that causes amplification of a certain incident of light at a particular wavelength---in this case it will be the light produced initially by the lasing pump. This will only be possible if the material has properties that will allow a large number of excited-state atoms to exist at any given time, increasing the degree of population inversion---ratio of ground state versus excited state atoms---within the material. When the electrons in these excited atoms then fall back down to their ground states, they release energy in the form of photons. These photons will have a wavelength that is specific to the state of the electron's energy at the moment of emission, responsible for the color of the laser light.

The optical cavity is an array---usually of size 2---of mirrors that enclose the gain medium in order to provide the stimulated feedback necessary to in the lasing reaction, with one of the mirrors in the array half-silvered so as to allow the eventual release of laser light. This means that the optical cavity array acts as a type of resonator, forcing a beam of light back and forth between its reflective surfaces so that each photon in the wave passes through the gain medium many times before it is either emitted or lost. As the light through the gain medium, it excites the electrons in the gain medium into higher energy levels. As mentioned before, once those electrons reach a certain energy state, they release energy in the form of additional photons and fall back to their ground states. If the amplification or gain of photons is stronger than the losses due to diffraction or absorption, then the power of the resonating photons can increase exponentially, thus producing and sustaining the lasing reaction. When some of these photons eventually escape through the half-silvered mirror, the result is a focused beam of monochromatic, single-phased, and columnated laser light.

3. HD DVD


When DVD and DVD players first hit the US market in 1997, consumers began noticing an increase in video and sound quality. DVD movies offered superior tracking capabilities such as pausing without picture distortion, and much more data such as movie commentary could be included. Widespread distribution of the DVD standard soon obsoleted all other formats---including VHS and VCD---in the United States.

After the introduction of high definition TV sets however, people began noticing that DVD movies were not really playing at HDTV resolutions. The reason for this is because high definition video requires much more storage capacity than that available on DVD's. One solution offered by manufacturers is the HD DVD.

Developed by major electronics manufacturers Toshiba and NEC, HD DVD stands for High Definition Digital Versatile Disc and a single layer HD DVD disc can store as much as three times the amount of data on a DVD---about 15GB versus 4.7GB on DVD's. In practical applications, a single layer HD DVD can hold approximately ten hours of standard analogue video compared to two hours on a DVD. Dual layer HD DVD's double the storage capacity to 30GB.

The HD DVD is a successor to the original DVD in many ways, including the method of data storage and retrieval. They are so similar in fact that existing manufacturing lines for DVD's can be quickly and cheaply converted to produce HD DVD's. Like its predecessor, each HD DVD has a series of microscopic pits arranged in a spiral pattern on one side of the disc platter. The HD DVD player then focuses a laser to the opposite side of the disc in order to read these pits as bumps. The outer disc layer is composed of a protective coating of polycarbonate, which readily allows for lossless transmission of laser light. When the laser light passes through the polycarbonate and hits the reflective material containing the microscopic bumps, it will bounce back at a precise angle and be detected by a sensor inside the HD DVD player and be interpreted into digital signals. Logically, light that bounces off a bump will be read by the sensor and stored as a digital '1'. Light that does not bounce off a bump will reflect at a different angle and miss the sensor, during which time the sensor will generate a '0'. It is in this bitwise fashion that audio and video data can both be readily stored and read in the DVD or HD DVD format. Finally, it is important to note that only the highly focused and columnated nature of laser light allows for this to be done in a precise and predictable manner.

Three very important differences between the HD DVD format to achieve its superior storage capacity from DVD. First, the data compression format has been updated to MPEG4 format in HD DVD's, compared to MPEG2 for DVD's. This allows for as much as an increase of 40% in compression gain, dramatically increasing the amount of compressed data that can be stored. Second, the spacing of the pits and bumps---called track pitch---have been reduced: the standard DVD format has a track pitch of 0.74 micrometers, whereas the HD DVD format has a track pitch of 0.40 micrometers. This allows many more bumps to be placed closer together, resulting in a dramatic increase in storage capability. Last but not least, in order to read the information from this finer spacing of bumps, HD DVD's use a different wavelength of laser than DVD's. Whereas DVD's rely on a red laser with a wavelength of 650 nanometers, HD DVD's use a blue laser with a wavelength of 405 nanometers. The shorter wavelength of the blue laser is crucial in the precise and predictable reading of the smaller track pitch in HD DVD's.

4. Blu-ray



Backed by leading electronics manufacturers such as Sony, Dell, and Philips, Blu-ray is the direct competitor to HD DVD in the battle of next generation optical storage. The name Blu-ray refers to the 405 nanometer wavelength blue laser---the same as that of HD DVD's---used to read from the optical discs. However, unlike HD DVD discs which have a track pitch of 0.40 micrometers, Blu-ray discs have a track pitch of 0.32 micrometers, allowing for even more storage capacity. To compensate for the smaller grooves in the disc, Blu-ray laser lens have a greater numerical aperture---or ability to transmit and receive light---than that of HD DVD lasers. A single layer Blu-ray disc may contain as much as 25GB of compressed data, an advantage of more than thirty percent over HD DVD. A dual layer Blu-ray disc doubles that storage capacity to 50GB, enough for over four hours of high definition video and more than 20 hours of standard definition video.

While it may sound as though Blu-ray may simply be a more advanced version of the HD DVD standard, the completely different way data is stored in a Blu-ray disc distinguish it from the former. In DVD's and HD DVD's, data is imprinted onto reflective material between two polycarbonate layers. This protective design has helped DVD discs withstand physical punishment and neglect in even the most careless of hands. It has also produced problems and headaches for the disc makers, the foremost of which is birefringence. Birefringence in optical discs is a phenomenon observed in which the compressed polycarbonate layer refracts the laser light, separating the single highly focused beam into two separate rays diverging from the incident of the original ray. If there is too much divergence with respect to the original ray, the disc cannot be read. Manufacturers incur significant manufacturing defect rates as a result---many discs that have measured birefringence beyond tolerance are discarded, the cost being passed to the retailers and consumer. Another problem that affects consumers is disc tilt, in which the disc surface is not flat enough for the reading laser inside the media player to direct a ray sufficiently perpendicular to it to allow for proper reading and writing.

Blu-ray circumvents these problems by placing the reflective data layer on top of the polycarbonate layer. This prevents birefringence and the associated reading problems common to defective DVD discs. This also places the laser lens closer to the data, dramatically reducing the problem of disc tilt. Of course, this implementation also defeats the protection offered by the traditional design, and even a slight scratch to the data layer will render a Blu-ray disc inoperable. To compensate, Blu-ray discs come with a hard chemical coating on the outside of the disc. While not as hardy as their DVD counterparts, Blu-ray discs have been tested to be more than adequate for everyday wear and tear.

This advantage in reducing manufacturing defects is also, ironically, an obstacle in the mass production of Blu-ray discs. The same manufacturing lines used to make DVD's and HD DVD's cannot easily be used to make Blu-ray discs. In fact, it is quite expensive to convert existing manufacturing machinery to make Blu-ray discs, so much so that many of Blu-ray's backers simply build entirely new production lines. For some of the smaller media companies, this may not be an option as they simply cannot cope with the related expenses.

Nevertheless, Blu-ray technology does have its technical appeal to those manufacturers with the money to pursue it. Aside from the increased storage space it offers, Blu-ray also claims an advantage in raw data transfer rates to HD DVD: 54 megabits per second versus 36.55 megabits per second. Together, the increased size and speed of Blu-ray technology promises higher quality videos for movies and faster optical device access for PC's.

Finally, unlike the initial offerings of HD DVD discs, Blu-ray will offer a wide variety of sub-formats that includes the ability to rewrite data on discs. They are often referred to by the following abbreviations: BD-ROM for read-only media discs, BD-R for read-only PC data storage, BD-RW for reading and writing PC data, and BD-RE for reading and writing HDTV content. This approach offers the consumer more choices depending on their needs and it remains to be seen whether it will generate interest or confusion in the US.

5. Head-to-Head Comparisons


Head to head comparisons between HD DVD and Blu-ray based on available data yield some interesting but predictable results. Although both Blu-ray and HD DVD are similar in many aspects, the table below shows that there are some important differences between them.

First, the manufacturers most responsible for the development of each format:

Format Founders
Blu-ray	HD DVD
Sony	Toshiba
Philips	Hitachi

Next, the physical characteristics of each format:

Parameters	Blu-ray	HD DVD
Laser wavelength	405nm (blue laser)	405nm (blue laser)
Numerical aperture	0.85	0.65
Disc thickness	1.2mm	1.2mm
Disc diameter	120mm	120mm
Protection layer	0.1mm	0.6mm
Hard coating	Yes	No
Track pitch	0.32µm	0.40µm

Both use the same 405nm blue laser, but Blu-ray's enjoys a clear advantage in numerical aperture, allowing it to better focus its laser for reading purposes. Both discs are the same size, shape, and diameter, and can only be distinguished by the labeling on the discs. The track pitch of the Blu-ray disc is finer than that of HD DVD, allowing data to be more densely packed. The most important statistic shown however, is the thickness of the protection layers. Despite the hard chemical coating applied to Blu-ray discs, it does not match the superior protection offered by the traditional thick coating of polycarbonate on the HD DVD disc.
Of course, few consumers abuse their discs or care enough about them to worry about a difference of less than a millimeter in the protective layers. What they really care about is the size and speed at which their optical media runs, and the corresponding quality offered by that media. The table below compares Blu-ray and HD DVD in this respect:

Capacity
Blu-ray		HD DVD
ROM Single Layer	25GB	Single Layer	15GB
ROM Dual layer	50GB	Dual Layer	30GB
RW Single Layer	23.3 / 25 / 27GB
RW Dual Layer	46.6 / 50 / 54GB

As indicated, Blu-Ray discs enjoy a substantial advantage in storage capacity over their HD DVD counterparts. Initial Blu-Ray rewritable discs will vary in capacity and will enjoy the benefit of having no direct HD DVD counterparts for the near future. However, this is not all: as mentioned previously, Blu-Ray also enjoys a significant advantage in data transfer rates to complement its bigger storage capabilities:

Transfer Rates
Blu-ray		HD DVD
Raw Data	54Mbps	Raw Data	36.55Mbps
Audio + Video	48Mbps	Audio + Video	30.24Mbps
Video Only	40Mbps	Video Only	29.4Mbps

Clearly, Blu-Ray dominates in the two categories most movie enthusiasts and PC users care most about. For instance, PC games are becoming increasingly voracious for storage space, with some games taking up to more than five traditional DVD discs. This pattern of growth shows no sign of slowing down, and a few years from now games---especially those that may contain high definition video---could easily take up to 40GB of storage space. The optimal storage solution would appear to be a dual layer Blu-ray implementation with its superior storage and faster transfer rates allowing for better load times.

Next, it is important to look at the formats' ability to compress video and audio data, then uncompressing and decoding that data on the fly to a high definition screen:

Parameters	Blu-ray	HD DVD
Video resolution (max)	1920×1080 (1080p)	1920×1080 (1080p)
Video codecs	MPEG-2 MPEG-4 AVC SMPTE VC-1	MPEG-2 MPEG-4 AVC SMPTE VC-1
Audio codecs	Linear PCM Dolby Digital Dolby Digital Plus Dolby TrueHD DTS Digital Surround DTS-HD	Linear PCM Dolby Digital Dolby Digital Plus Dolby TrueHD DTS Digital Surround DTS-HD

In this area at least, both formats appear identically well equipped to handle the software compression---or codecs---used in modern day media. MPEG4 in particular looks to be a dominant compression scheme for video in the years to come, so it is an important codec to have support for in both formats. And as indicated, both formats are fully compatible with the highest definition resolutions available on the market.
Both formats already have major distributors and developers lined up, and it is important for consumers to recognize what camp their favorite media company is in:

Studios
Blu-ray	HD DVD
20th Century Fox Buena Vista Home Entertainment Electronic Arts MGM Studios Paramount Pictures Sony Pictures Entertainment The Walt Disney Company Vivendi Universal Games Warner Bros.	Buena Vista Home Entertainment New Line Cinema Paramount Pictures The Walt Disney Company Universal Studios Warner Bros.

While some companies choose to straddle the fence and work with both formats until the dust clears, others have committed themselves to either one camp or the other. Notable game developer Electronic Arts for instance has committed to the Blu-ray standard while Universal Studios will only be releasing HD DVD titles. It is conceivable and even likely that these companies may change their minds in the future, but for now consumers should be aware of the support for the format they will be investing hundreds of dollars in.

This brings up a final and deciding factor in the futures of both standards: price. Currently, only Toshiba produces standalone HD DVD players with Microsoft developing add-on HD DVD units to their Xbox360 gaming consoles. On the other side, a plethora of companies including Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, Sharp, JVC, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, TDK, Thomson, LG, Apple, HP and Dell produce standalone Blu-ray players. Sony is also using a Blu-ray player in their newest gaming console, the PlayStation 3. With so much hardware manufacturing support for one standard, one would assume that Blu-ray players would be much cheaper to obtain than HD DVD players.

That is not the case however, as prices for an average HD DVD player with moderate functionality begins at $500 USD while prices for a Blu-ray player with similar functions begin at $1000 USD. Much of this price disparity has to do with the manufacturing process of Blu-ray units compared to HD DVD units. As previously mentioned, DVD hardware manufacturing lines can easily convert to HD DVD manufacturing at little or no cost. Converting from DVD to Blu-ray assembly lines on the other hand requires so much money that it is sometimes better to just discard the multi-million dollar pieces of machinery in a factory and install dedicated Blu-ray assemblers. When spread out across dozens or hundreds of factories, this could easily cost hundreds of millions of dollars...and it is an expense that consumers can see being passed down to them as a result. In the area of pricing and cost, HD DVD wins by a landslide.

6. Conclusions

It is clear from the comparisons that Blu-ray observes a terrific advantage in technical specifications compared to HD DVD. For developers and distributors of high definition video and games of the future, it would be illogical to ignore this distinct Blu-ray advantage. And yet, as a consumer ready to invest five or ten of the above Benjamin Franklins in a format that may or may not prevail in the end, it is important to draw hints and clues from history.

In the early 1980's, a similar format war was fought between JVC and Sony. The competitors: Sony's Betamax versus JVC's VHS cassette tapes. History has made no secret of the fact that VHS went on to dominate well into the 1990's, while Betamax was left collecting dust in pawn shops or seen as a collector's item on display in a museum. In fact, the phrase “Beta Testing” became well known more for its implied reference to the obsolescence of Betamax than beta's place in the Greek alphabet. Just as those two standards were irrevocably different in their manufacturing and design, so are the Blu-ray and HD DVD formats today.

The interesting facts only come to light however, upon closer analysis of VHS's victory over Betamax. To begin, at the time of their initial launches VHS's VCR players cost twice as much as Betamax VCR's. However, VHS could record a maximum of three hours (at reduced quality) while Sony refused to sacrifice quality and stood behind the 60 minute maximum of Betamax. Nevertheless, even at its best quality (SP speed) VHS could not match the video quality of Betamax. This created an initially strong consumer base who valued video quality over duration. Unfortunately for Betamax, the storage limitations of Betamax did not sit well with movie makers and distributors. Support for Betamax rapidly evaporated as more and more movies and media adopted VHS. Left without their favorite movies and shows on VCR, the Betamax followers vanished, replacing their Betamax players with VHS players. Sony finally admitted defeat in the late 1980's and started manufacturing their own VHS VCR's.

If this quick history lesson should teach the casual buyer anything, it is that the format which is considered superior in quality may not win. The most important factor appear to be support from media distributors. Since distributors chose VHS over Betamax in the 1980's because of VHS' advantage in storage, it is likely that they will do so again...this time choosing the superior storage offered by Blu-ray. However, this is not to say that manufacturing cost and retail price will not be an issue. Should HD DVD's cheaper manufacturing and lower retail prices allow it to saturate the market before Blu-ray can establish a sufficient user base, this will force media distributors to reconsider the format of their choice. And the outcome then will be most advantageous for HD DVD.

The conclusion that can be derived then, is this: right now, historical precedence would seem to favor Blu-ray. However, the huge difference in manufacturing costs looks like it could very well swing the battle in favor of HD DVD. Only time will tell a true winner, and until such a time has come the consumer should hold onto his wallet and keep the DVD player in its place near the television set.

7. References

1.Official Blu-ray website http://www.blu-ray.com/
2.Official HD DVD website http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/
3*.Wikipedia Blu-ray entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluray
4*.Wikipedia HD DVD entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
5.The Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, “How a laser works”, article UCRL-AR-108618 , online entry at http://www.llnl.gov/nif/library/aboutlasers/how.html
6.Overheim, R. D. and Wagner, D., Light and Color, Wiley, 1982
7.Parisi, Paula. "The Great DVD Debate," Hollywood Reporter, April 13, 2004, page S13.
8. Ryan, B., Blu-ray vs HD DVD: State of the Division, Engadget, http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-state-of-the-s-union-s-division/
9.HowStuffWorks.com HD DVD article http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hd-dvd3.htm
10.Labriola, Don. "Blue Lasers Boost DVD Capacity," PC Magazine, August 3, 2004, page 30.

*Much thanks to the Wikipedia community for providing the images used.

User contributions and corrections so far:

1) TedJ contributes:

Very true about the adult film industry, although I'm not sure if the lead time to market was that much. As for professional use of Beta, that is best described as a niche market. There is no question who the victor was: VHS.

2) fabarati blurts out:

Yep, it is! Belated thanks to Engadget for the jpeg located here: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/media/2007/02/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd.jpg

3) Jalf muses:

Yep, looks like Toshiba announced triple layer HD DVD discs which hold up to 45GB of information, not quite the 50GB of a dual layer BR disc but close. There are also as yet unsubstantiated rumors of 50GB triple layer HD DVD's. Pricing is unknown.

4) LFC enlightens us:

That's why you should get all your tech info right here at NBR!

5)Duchesne notices a typo:

Thanks Duchesne! That small typo makes a huge difference actually.

 

Lol OK I just noticed someone voted in the poll 30 seconds after I posted this thread. I hope you're just an incredibly fast reader.

 

I believe that blu-ray is going to win, since more laptop makers are adopting the format, like acer, dell, sony, and even lenovo.

 

Nice report... you're quite correct in stating that the technically superior format may not end up being the winner, although I wouldn't vote for Blu-ray simply because of it's higher capacity.

The reason why VHS won the format war of it's day wasn't so much the longer record times, but it's lead time to market (around 18 months) and it's support from the adult film industry. Beta lives on to this very day, however, as the various broadcast Betacam formats.

 

Thanks. You're right about the adult film industry siding with VHS, thus helping sales of that standard in the US. However, I thought Beta was released earlier or same time as VHS in the UK.

 

Cool one Gator

 

Very nice reporting there mate!

It's a bit too soon to call who will win. sure laptops could contain blu-ray drives but as was reported HD-DVD production lines can be converted from old DVD lines and this is an ultimate advantage cost-wise. If HD-DVD is to win they will have to drop the prices on their movies to DVD level now while Blu-ray remain higher. However as mentioned, HD-DVD defect rates are higher due to the same problems from DVD so although it is cheaper to convert lines to HD-DVD, Blu-ray offers less defect percentages. So while the cost of opening a Blu-ray line is more expensive than converting to HD-DVD, the lower defect rates of blu-ray discs may bring down costs in the long run.

In the end it is too soon to call a victor cuz it will simply depend on who plays what and whose strategy and popularity vs cost wins. If HD-DVD can hold it out, bring down its prices to DVD levels while keeping the costs of defect discs to themselves then they could squeeze Blu-ray out. But if Blu-ray does the same, then we could be seeing a huge price war on the horizon. all to our benefit I hope!

As for the VHS vs Betamax war, I remember we had a VHS player from 84 or 85, maybe even earlier and this was in Ireland. Sony's stance in limiting betamax to 60mins was clearly thought out by idiots. Did they honestly think superior quality would win over having customers play 2-3 hour movies with 2-3 tapes they have to eject and insert? they didnt seem to figure in the couch potato and remote control in that eh?

 

That was a good read. Of course, I already knew most (if not all) of it, but a good read none the less.

Isn't the blueray/hd-dvd vs football helmets an Engadget-image? Cause they use it all the time.

And there is a simple blue-ray player for about $600 (in america), the PS3. While I've only ever watched one Blueray disk (Resident evil: Apocalypse that came with my brothers PS3) I can say that it works quite well.

While it might not have been too long, i'm still gonna go and find something to eat

 

yup if u right click on it, it's linked from engagdet

 

First, looks like a lot of work went into this... Good job.

I'll gladly admit I don't know all that much about optical drive technology, but I've got a few remarks/comments/questions.

Define "more than adequate". There are plenty of people who don't think regular DVD's are hardy enough, so how can an even easier scratched BR-disc be "more than adequate"? (I've lost more than a few games to scratched CD's or DVD's)
I think you should delete that last part, and simply say that it's less hardy than DVD's. Leave the question of whether or not it's good *enough* up to the reader's preferences.

HD-DVD is already ready with triple-layer discs, which evens out the storage capacity.

Should note that this obviously depends on the speed of the drive... IIRC, the PS3 uses a 1.5x BR-drive, which gives a lower transfer speed than both many DVD and HD-DVD drives.

That sounds biased.
Sounds like you're comparing an existing product (HD-DVD's initial offerings) with something that only exists as marketing claims "Blu-Ray *will* offer)
Maybe it was just a typo or something, but thought I'd point it out. If BR doesn't have these subformats yet, they are not an advantage over HD-DVD.
Also I suspect it's quite naive to assume that HD-DVD won't also have writable media...

I disagree, it definitely shows signs of slowing down. We've had DVD-sized games since the late 90's, and the vast majority still fits onto one, maybe 1.5 DVD.

There has been very little growth in the size of games for years, primarily because all the innovation is happening in areas like shaders and procedural graphics and content, which take almost no space. There's just a limit to how big textures can be before it becomes pointless given the resolutions we actually play the games at. And more detailed meshes has become more or less pointless too, because shaders can fix up all the missing detail through normal maps or parallax mapping or a dozen other features.

As for movie content, that's not often used in games, these days. If anything, the trend is going away from prerendered (or live action) movies, and towards ingame graphics... Obviously, since ingame graphics get more and more impressive.

By the way, a question:
I thought I read something about how HD-DVD could read regular DVD's and BR couldn't? Do you know whether that's true?

Again, I think it's interesting that HD-DVD has been able to make triple-layer discs, and BR haven't. There's also oddly slow PS3 drive. Is that an indicator that BR-drives in general can't easily be sped up as much as CD/DVD/HD-DVD drives? That would eliminate the transfer speed difference, and if these two things are both general limitations in Blu-Ray, I'd say it eliminates the advantage you mention.
So far, it seems to me that HD-DVD has been able to improve vastly faster than Blu-Ray. Do you know anything about this?

Depends. Another historical precedence is that every format Sony has tried to invent and push on consumers has failed, partly due to Sony's stiff-neckedness and refusal to work with the rest of the market.
That has happened with Betamax, Minidisc and the PSP's UMD.

Finally, there are two more possible outcomes. Either they both lose (there just isn't interest in a HD media format, with online streaming content becoming more prevalent and digital distribution winning out), or maybe they both win (think DVD+ and DVD-. Today, every DVD drive can handle both just fine. Neither format died out)

 

Nice write-up, it was very informative.

This might be a stupid question, but are either of the competing formats backwards compatible?

 

All HD DVD players offer backwards compatibility with both the DVD and CD formats

Thanks I'm always a sucker for kind words.

Anyhow, the "more than adequate" terminology used is meant to address normal use. Obviously, if a user goes out of his way to destroy the BR disc, or wipes it down with sandpaper, the protective coating will not be adequate. Perhaps it would be better to say that BR will fare just as well as HD DVD when given the same treatment in everyday use.

As for triple layer HD DVD's, I will need to check their pricing, but I believe they are much more expensive than normal single and dual layer HD DVD's. I'm not even sure they offer them as of yet, though i know Toshiba announced their launch some time ago. That said, the standard BR disc will always beat the standard HD DVD disc for storage as indicated in the table.

As for the increase in size of game data, I can't say that I've noticed it slowing down much. Now this doesn't mean there are fluctuations with game title sizes as developers manage to optimize their code for the platform they develop for, but the general trend is and has always been that as video games evolve to look, sound, and feel better, they've always increased in size. For example, just a couple of years ago games were at most ~2GB in size on disc. Today, games top out at ~6GB in size. I suspect as we move to HD graphics, that size can only increase.

Here's a table quote from GamesFirst.com on Xbox titles:

I'm not too sure about the PS3's purportedly slower BR drive. I would suspect it's endemic to the PS3 only, however I have not done a thorough comparison of all BR drive read and write speeds.

Finally, as much as we would all like to see HD DVD and Blu-ray get along, the bulk of my post shows that this will not be possible. Aside from the fact that neither side is willing to compromise, the technologies---including the disc track widths and laser focus apertures as well as manufacturing lines---are just different enough to prevent a happy ending for both standards. It'll be one or the other.

Yep, you're right, it is from Engadget. I'll credit them in the reference too

 

Yeah, but if the standard disc ends up not being used because double/triple layer discs are available, that doesn't matter much.

Well, it won't. Everyday use includes a bit of wear and tear for most people. Sooner or later, the BR-discs are going to fail (and presumably sooner than the HD ones)

Well, if both formats get a big enough userbase, they'll have to.
Anyway, there's already several dual-format drives in the works, so it's definitely possible.

By the way, have you looked at any numbers of how widespread the two formats are now? I know I saw some indicating Blu-Ray to be way ahead, but that was including the PS3's sold. (And I suspect that many people who bought PS3's won't buy many movies for it, but primarily use it for games, so that won't help BR win out against HD-DVD)
Would be interesting to see some more detailed numbers, but I dont know if they're available anywhere

 

Just from a technical perspective, I'd vote for Blu-Ray since it holds more data per layer, but I dislike Sony for what they did with the PS3. So arrogant to cram the Blu-Ray down our throats. They have a losing record in format wars. Anyone remember betamax, UMDs or MiniDisc? I'd say it it's way too early to invest in either format especially at the prices they are asking. Perhaps a dual format drive.

 

the DVD+ and - "war" is alot different from this

those are recordable formats, blu-ray and hd-dvd are used by the movie/media industry. how many of you ever saw dvd+/-r movies being released that only work on either of those drives before the dual format writers came out? none of course. it is quite hard if not impossible for both formats to co-exist but there is a small chance this might work out if dual format drives supporting both are released and become mainstream. Each distributor can stick to their brand and can be played by all high def players.

 

A dual format drive is the ideal solution to be sure. But it will mean ungainly manufacturing costs for the unit which will get passed to us the consumers, and there will still be a dichotomy between HD DVD and Blu-ray.

 

great info, but theres too much to read. I have already know a bit on it so I just had to vote few secs after I click this post

no matter what I still prefer blu-ray due to its multi layer function and laptops are made for data. Though we don't need all that capacity storage...well I do. Movies should be left to watch on a regular TV. Blu-rays arent that bad either so I have to choose blue-ray.

 

Yeah the question is just how much will the player cost and if it's cost effective to make a writer with a dual format too.

the only issue I have with blu-ray is the protection from scratches it uses and whether such protection will last over years of "accidental scratches". although they claim it will, they havent exactly tested this, just a simulation of possible scratches. Basically I would hate to burn a blu-ray today full of family movies for example and find there are too many scratches for it to be readable in 10 years time (obviously ill have to find a blu-ray player for it too hehe)

 

That's a good point. However, I don't think the hard coating will erode over time. Repeated abuse of the hard coating could inflict enough superficial scratches to prevent accurate reading from the data layer. But this can be said of HD DVD as well. Perhaps someone will have a good Blu-ray durability testing video to contribute?

 

For what the report states, of course that Blue ray is an apparent better choice for consumers.
However, I wonder how resistant is Blue ray's "chemical coating". Resistance is going to be very important because if you scratch a blue ray and you can't read it you'll loose 50 GB (half of a hard drive). When R-DVDs became popular I was very worried about that but fortunately they are really tough. But how tough Blue ray is going to be? I have my doubts on this "coating".
I was going for Blue ray, but after reading the report, I voted HD-DVD.

 

Glad to hear that. HD DVD does have a street rep of being the tougher of the two discs, what with its more traditional protection scheme. It's also much more "conversion friendly" than Blu-ray, with the least likely possible amount of headaches for manufacturers. Which of course trickles down the grapevine to us individual consumers.

 

Go Blu-Ray!

I'm going for it cause I have it on my Sony AR laptop. XD

 

I just read that Toshiba is giving a $100 rebate on the HD-A2 model starting on May 20th. Then on the last week of the promotion ending June 16th, they will give that same rebate on all of their models.

 

I think it's too early to tell. But I think I'm going to side with HD-DVD. DVD is already well known, it's cheap to convert lines over to HD-DVD. Also, if you get an HD-DVD player it'll still play all of those DVDs everyone has been collecting for years, BR won't. Sure BR has some advantages, but so did all of Sony's past failures...

 

Excellent analysis of the two technologies. It gives the Bluray side the advantage, but I do not think so. Both formats seem to be well supported; Blu-ray has plenty of companies supporting it, and HD DVD has some big ones, like Microsoft, which seems determined to go against Blu-ray.

Personally, I think that while Blu-ray has undoubtedly superior technology, HD DVD is much more practical for the foreseeable future.

 

and Im against Bluray simply because I cant stand Sony

 

Update. The HD-A2 model is on sale at Best Buy for $299.

 

I've always supported blu-ray simply because of the fact that it holds more data. At the end of the day, all I care about is if my disc holds 15gb or 25gb when I backup data on my computer.

The extra capacity can't hurt when storing HD1080p video's either. Remember how annoying it was when watching pearl harbour or any of the lotr extended editions you had to get up and insert the second disc half way through the movie. The extra storage capacity could help with this problem, assuming the movie isn't 5 hours long.

 

Sony vs. Media Storage Race (Round #2 )


once the price of blu ray can decrease and level out, hopefully it will come out on top render HD DVD as obselete as Sony's own Betamax.

I vote Blue

 

Does the HD DVD's require HD DVD players or can regular DVD players play it? If HD DVD can be played in normal DVD players, than I choose the HD DVD because people obviously obtain a DVD player for cheap compared to the Blu-Ray players.

DVD players = $80?
Blu-Ray players = $800? (10 times more expensive!)

Now the figures above is just "if HD DVD can be played in normal DVD players".

 

You need HD DVD players to play HD DVD movies.

Regular dvd's CANNOT play HD DVDs.

 

Glad you caught on to the color scheme , it was pure coincidence by the way.

I believe the pricing of the respective players will even out at proportionally the same rate as their acceptance by the general public. Which is to say, the faster the public adopts HD DVD or Blu-ray, the cheaper the unit players will become.

 

Only one thing will dictate which format I will buy to replace my SD DVD collection - the consumer

No reports, findings, PR from the companies or Hollywood will persuade me whichever way in the itnerim

I will only commit when 3 things happen:
a) HD TVs become cheaper and mainstream
b) One of the two formats win OR dual-format players take control

 

Well Sony reasoning to dropping the price of the PS3 is due to the bluray is cheaper to make now. I personally think Sony is dropping the PS3 price to stop the bleeding.
Anyways if thats the angle Sony wishes to take that only means the player will get cheaper and cheaper sooner than later.
I still think LG has the best seat in the house with a player that plays and records on both formats.
But i think blueray has the edge as makers like TDk already have a 50gig BR blank and a 200 gig blank in the making.
Afterall the media unit with the best variety of rewritable media will ultimately win.

 

What price cut? The 20gb model has quietly disappeared, with Sony spinning it as lack of demand. So if the higher HD version is only available, it costs more if you only wanted the 20gb PS3 in the first place!

Sony are not about to cut the price of the PS3 anytime soon. They're already making losses on it - it is not selling enough to be able to justify selling it at an even bigger loss to be offset by software and accessory sales

 

Thou it hasnt happened yet it will.
The PS3 cant survive at its current price point in all markets. We all know the Sony rumours swirling around for mths about a price drop and those rumours were started by Sony itself. So its not hearsay.
http://kotaku.com/gaming/sony/sony-reconsidering-its-pricing-strategy-for-ps3-253539.php

Also, Sony is used to losing money on hardware, Its nothing new to them. They'll probably make some back with game licensing etc. To date, Sonys biggest hardware loss is still (no, its not the Betamax... Beta made good thru the pro studio editing market when tape was still the dominate medium) the MiniDisc format. Yet Sony continues to support it and make new players for it.
Look at Toshiba and its HD-DVD player. They are selling each and every HD-DVD unit under cost and losing huge. But its not about profitabilty as its more about market dominance of the tech.

So with Sony's own admission that the PS3 price point needs a rethink as well as pressure from CEO of UbiSoft the price drop is envitible.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=164237

Heres the article stating the BlueRay diodes are now cheaper to make
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=15931

 

Why not just get both...lol

 

Thats why i said LG is really in the driver seat with a player thats plays both formats

 

The classic case of one member speaking of fact and the other speaking of conjecture as fact No doubt the price point is hurting PS3 sales - but as I said, they can't afford to sell it for less. You think Microsoft won't offer a price cut? They have deep enough pockets. Then a 360 with HD-DVD add-on would still represent a better deal than the PS3

And even if a price cut is forthcoming, until there is official word, it is still internet heresy

 

You say 'conjecture' like its a bad thing. Conjecture is great. Conjecture flows rampant all over the net and it forces us to debate. And if you debate the what ifs on the right site (namely dpreview.com) where manufacturers actually monitor what people have to say then things get done


So let me say its again. The PS3 price drop is more than internet hearsay but has substance for its come from Sony itself. Its not some madeup rumour started on some blog or forum and spread around like a box of oreo cookies.


Sony President Ryoji Chubachi:
We are re-examining our PS3 budgeting process in terms of pricing and volume. Sales assumptions change and the market is competitive. We are in the midst of revisiting our strategy for the PS3.

maybe you should send every site thats predicting a price drop based on what they report and accuse them of conjecture

 

Yeah but conjecture is the work of the devil don't you know

I am not against a price cut. If it comes, it only good for the consumer. But for Sony's accountants, it wouldn't exactly be sweet news...

Rock and a hard place. Saddle (and I stand by that) the PS3 with blu-ray but then charge stupid money.

 

lol charging alot for a machine with blu-ray when there is an alternative machine that costs less is suicide.

first of all, the consumer may or may not buy new movies but if they do, they would be cautious which format to purchase, blu-ray, HD-DVD or just DVD. since DVD might soon be retiring, you have two options and there is yet to be a clear winner. if u buy one format of discs just to find the other side has won, then u are left with a collection gathering dust. so who really would buy a PS3 for a horrendous price just cuz of a format that is not 100% sure of winning? Back in the PS2 days, ppl bought the PS2 cuz it was a Sony (which meant quality) and cuz it was cheap for what you got which was a DVD player, a PS1 compatible console and a new PS2 console. Everyone knew DVD was here to stay for a while, noone knows how long blu-ray or HD-DVD will last before one is victorious.

so being several months behind the Xbox360 and trying to win a format war, Sony made the best choice they could, relying on consumers to do what they did with the PS2, buy a multi-purpose machine.

Sure they're losing money fast, sometimes it's not always about money, its about domination and power. it's clear why microsoft are against blu-ray, sony are backing it and theyre rivals in the console market.

 

there was no winner in the DVD+, DVD- war, player`s and recorder`s just became multi-format.

regards.

John.

 

This is true but those were only consumer writable formats. Movie makers and game producers made DVD-Roms so they didn't have to choose.

With these next gen dvds, movie makers had to choose a side. As games get larger in size, game makers could just pack more DVD-Roms into a box so they may not be heavily affected by this.

Multi-format players seem ideal for consumers, but they would definitely cost more for the manufacturer to license both technologies which means higher costs for us. Perhaps when HD technology becomes mainstream... Gotta wait for all those CRT TV's to explode and standard definition cable channels to get cancelled. =)

 

so what format are store bought pressed DVD disks, DVD+ or -

regards.

John.

 

The dvd+/-feud (it was'nt not big enough to be called a war) only affected burning. All, or nearly all, readers could read both. Store-bought DVDs are DVD-ROM.

 

Interesting read here on how the author reached their conclusion

The link contains words which are moderated, but nevertheless there is a little adult language

 

Yes, there's a lot of disinformation on the net about the formats. Luckily, we have NBR!

Added link to front post.

 

I'm not gonna choose side until i got a HDTV, and for me to get a HDTV, SED screens have to be released or my tv will have to die. Til then, i get my HD-material online. Stargate Atlantis in 720p is quite awesome.

 

And thats exactly what will happen here. it will be blue hd dvd.

I wouldnt buy something that didnt do both