How do you want your next laptop to be built?

I am sort of curious how this will play out, so I thought I would test the waters with a poll.

Things continue to look pretty grim for high performance notebooks with each product refresh and well made enthusiast grade high performance notebooks will only be something to tell your kids/grandkids about (the good old days) if we continue on the current path.

So cast a vote and sound off. What kind of emasculated crap are you willing to put up with?

I think everyone that knows me already knows my answer.

NOTE: If you own a monster desktop, or a monster DTR notebook and don't really need your next laptop to be anything extraordinary, for the purpose of poll integrity please pretend the new laptop would be your only machine and respond with what your answer would be if you could not have that beast of a desktop or DTR to fall back on to satisfy your high performance computing needs.

 

@Mr. Fox How about more options?

Such as "Socketed CPU, but dont care about GPU". Thats where I fall in kinda of. But I voted for the socketed CPU as likely such a system would have MXM gpu as well.Also if it is my only system, I need all the GPU I can get.

 

My vote was pretty easy to put It's only one option which is correct. Second option would be max $200

 

LOL... Thanks for choosing from the available options, bro. I tried to cover most of the bases. I think if there were a dozen options there would still be at least a couple of folks that would still want one more.

The last laptop I remember seeing made like what you are suggesting was the Alienware 13 (2012) with Haswell.

 

I voted, there's really only one option for me as you'd know. If the laptop is going to be my primary system, it might as well do as well as a bloody desktop.

 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Schenker-F516-Flex-i5-6400T-Clevo-N350DW-Notebook-Review.160681.0.html

 

Nobody said it was to be my primary system

 

One step in correct direction


Edit. Functionality over the design!!

 

I went based off of this:

If this is not the case, the choice can change. A secondary notebook doesn't need to be top end, or *that* replace-able.

 

No, actually you answered correctly based on what I was asking people to do. That's exactly what I had in mind with the question. I will tweak it to include DTRs so nobody gets confused.

Edit: I tweaked it to read "NOTE: If you own a monster desktop, or a monster DTR notebook and don't really need your laptop to be anything extraordinary, for the purpose of poll integrity please pretend the new laptop would be your only machine and respond with what your answer would be if you could not have that beast of a desktop or DTR to fall back on to satisfy your high performance computing needs."

That can also vary based on what your standards are and how low you are willing to stoop/compromise your principles. Buying BGA "gaming notebook" would make me part of the problem and a hypocrite of the most atrocious order of magnitude imaginable.

I would prefer to never have anything I own be BGA crap if I can help it, and if I do ever settle for a BGA option as a secondary computer it will be like the last poll option and cost less than $500. You know, something just a shade or two better than my $50 rooted Kindle Fire tablet. (The Fire tablet happens to be a brilliant use of BGA and perfectly acceptable price for a BGA "computer" device.)

 

A bit expensive, but a option if you don't go for laptop with fully socketed hardware. Why pay more for laptops with soldered hardware?

Buy two and you have a safer choice than what you get from Dellienware.
Edit. And a lot cheaper as well.

 

My disassembled GE40 says hello from a box in the closet. I still have yet to do something with that old 4702MQ. Might just shove it into this Thinkpad...

But yeah I need muh modularity. For me, it's not even as much about the immediate performance (though that is a factor), but more about replacability and upgradability. I wanna be able to easily take apart, mess with, and replace every little piece of a laptop, from the CPU to the bezel to the fan. It kills me to see that even business laptops are now BGA boxes. Its like plastics in the gearhead community; machines full of proprietary parts that have to be completely replaced if they crash.

In many ways, this T440p and its brothers were the last true Thinkpads.

 

I want my laptops thin&light, with BGA CPU and iGPU graphics. I value ability to use as a tablet with pen&touch input, bright screen, wireless connectivity (top of the line Wi-Fi, 802.11ad WiGiG, LTE), battery life, RAM and SSD size, overall build quality (and keyboard in particular) - much more than raw CPU&GPU performance, since most of my tasks are not very CPU & GPU intensive, and I am satisfied with lowest possible settings in games as long as fps is at least playable.

For highly GPU-intensive tasks I'd rather use eGPU - because dGPU is pretty much useless when browsing, typing, reading, watching a movie or listening to music. Even for inking, dGPU is not required.

I, on the other hand, value the ability to have LTE connectivity without relying on a smartphone (which can discharge or run out of data plan). Ability to use a laptop anywhere - in a car, in a plane, in a bar, outdoors - not just on the desk at home or in the office, and carry it with me wherever and whenever I go. Ability to use external HDDs, TV and a stereo system connected to my machine without any lags - yet also without any wires - from anywhere across the room. Ability to turn my laptop into a tablet and read a pdf, a book or a comic like it's meant to be read, without keyboard and horizontal screen orientation standing in my way - and turn it back to laptop immediately to answer an important message. Ability to source parts and repair the device myself, just in case. Ability to type faster and with comfort, for heaven's sake!

These little things improve my productivity and make my life easier - unlike dGPU, which would mostly affect gaming experience in my scenario.

 

Forgot the option 6, Its rarer, but its a good sized niche

Socketed CPU (xenon 10 core preferably) and iGPU/whatever so I can have as much CPU power in portable form factor as possible for heavy compute elements, and not waste watts on Graphics

 

JK, thanks for sharing a dissenting opinion. Remember however that 'modular' and 'thin and light' are not mutually exclusive. You can have a reasonably portable laptop with non-BGA parts (my GE40 waves again). What I'm personally mad about is that instead of improving the technology, companies just dumped it in favor of soldered-everything. If this trend continues, even RAM and storage is going to become soldered, mark my words.

 

LOL. that's awesome. I may have to save that for use at a later date.

I almost posted the GIF below (a picture of Brother @Papusan) but decided against it. There is room at the table for everyone. We don't have to agree on everything. The problem with BGA is not that it exists. The problem, and a very grievous one, is that is it swiftly becoming the only option. For those that refuse to downgrade and compromise on that it really that sucks. It would be the final death blow to any interest in laptops for me, and it's almost to that point now with severely limited options.

 

See the thing about a poll like this is yes I have a desktop and a more portable laptop. But if I removed the desktop and just got a desktop... I still don't have many options.

Obviously LGA and MXM is what I'd want, but it doesn't make any sense for me. I have to take the thing all over the place and get it thrown around and have it show up in a business environment. And I'm sorry the 16L13 and P750 don't match that criteria. They'd get too many looks. Plus the horrific battery life is a deal breaker.

So I'd want LGA, but I can't have it unless you can get it to me in P650 form factor and style.

But you'd still be happy with my vote @Mr. Fox lol.

 

You mean... you don't want BGA? BGA means soldered. rPGA is non-soldered (removable).

The thing is it is completely possible to have rPGA in a portable form factor, and with good battery life. My GE40 waves again from the closet. The thing was 1.8kg and had an rPGA 4702MQ. Got 6+ hours of battery life easy.

 

Brain fart... Meant L Was also thinking about PGA so typed the only wrong thing lol.

 

Personally, I'm with Starlight on this (yeah, send me to the NBR gulag ). Even ignoring the fact that I have a desktop to game on, I don't even game all that often anyway so a dGPU would be near useless for me insofar as a portable computer goes. I'd rather have something with decent iGPU graphics if anything (Iris Pro?) for simplicity and battery life. As for the CPU, I'm fine with BGA since it's not like a CPU breaks all that often (or ever, really), so as long as I have something powerful enough for what I do, I'm okay (hell, I run Linux VMs on my laptop's i3 ULV just fine...).

The more important aspects of a laptop for me would be the build quality (which rules out consumer-class laptops, and thus gaming laptops), the ability to replace the storage drive(s) with aftermarket parts (both because those things can break more often, and for upgrade purposes later), and the display (768p needs to die).

 

But also consider the fact that it's a slippery slope. They succeeded in killing socketed CPUs. They tried to kill MXM, but failed. They might succeed next time, hell knows they're going to try. Then they could come after RAM, then storage, then batteries, etc. until the point where basically if any part of your laptop fails or needs an upgrade, you need to buy a whole new device. IMO, the more modularity the better. Proprietary things tend to bad for the consumer as they take power away from us and give it to corporations.

 

True, and Apple's already gone down this path.

However, I meant for my post to be read more as "I'm agnostic to the socket used" rather than "BGA or bust". Of course I have no issue with socketed laptop CPUs, though I don't think I'd pay extra for that feature. My priorities for a laptop are different (physical durability, for example), and given the typical failure rate of a CPU (near-zero), it's a trade off I'm okay with. The failure rate of storage drives, on the other hand, is high enough to where I'd want to have a socketed SSD/HDD; in addition to that, I run into capacity/IO bottlenecks far more often than CPU bottlenecks, so the ability to replace a drive is important to me while the ability to replace a laptop CPU isn't, provided I buy the power I need up-front.

That said, I don't require a super-powerful laptop (I have a desktop for that, and even that isn't "powerful": "just" an i5 K-series and a GTX 1060). The whole purpose of a laptop is to compute on the move, and for me that means battery life and (to some degree) weight (for a 15.6" laptop, >6lbs is a bit much, for example).

 

I'd like as many people to vote as possible and be honest. We don't want all the enthusiasts in the modless barren wasteland known as the OCer's lounge to vote MXM/LGA only and then results are skewed.

I'd like to make that much clear, at least. A good representation of EVERYONE is what we would like to see.

That said, I'd like to say to @Galm that the P150SM-A was pretty much a P650 type of machine but had sockets. It could have been slimmer by axing the optical drive from the machine's design, sure, and with a MUX switch for Optimus/dGPU-only it could provide what you wanted. So it's not like it didn't exist before. It's just that I suppose since the desktop socket with the added Z-height of the retention mechanism and IHS must be used, getting that level of "thin" into a system probably is not very feasible today.

Believe me, if the Zephyrus exists and works properly, they can engineer 25mm-or-less thick units with sockets if they wanted. The question is if people wanted it... but honestly I think the primary thing we need to do is get rid of intel everything for it. The as-of-now artificial axing of Coffee Lake from 1151 is a bad idea from Intel, and I know the M18x R1 despite being the same socket as the M18x R2, would not boot with Ivy Bridge in it. At the least we need the flexibility of a desktop system with things with respect to the CPU; Ryzen can provide that. The issue to fix at that point is then RAM.

Either way, this poll will be interesting to see.

 

Not gonna lie I don't get that argument about the P150SM at all D2. They were like 1.8" thick (notebookcheck says like 2" even), the P750DM is only 1.5" and the P650HS (the thicker one) is only 1.13". So the P150 was still massive.

 

Huh. Checked via NBC, it's 28mm vs 49mm apparently, yes. Though again since we have no more optical drives. I think slightly thicker than the existing P6 models is not a problem. I was comparing it to the huge notebooks of the time.

 

Interesting poll Mr Fox. I chose the full socketed CPU & MXM GPU option, but I nearly chose the third BGA option with non power restricted GPU simply because the current upgrade options for CPU & certainly GPU is limited for future generations - I really wish manufacturers would let you upgrade your MXM laptop to the next gen of GPU, but this never happens, so MXM is kind of a moot point at the moment. I only chose the full socketed CPU & MXM option under the proviso that I wish in the future that manufacturers would let you upgrade to the next gen/gens of GPU so the laptop doesn't become obsolete, otherwise this option has little value to me & I would then unhappily choose the third BGA option in the poll.

 

If they'd only do such a thing as use the video card's IDs instead of cross-checking everything compatibility with the BIOS >__<

 

They already came after RAM - most machines that meet my criteria have it soldered. Not that much of a problem at the moment since 32GB modules are still not around and their compatibility with current systems is questionable to say the least - but might be a serious issue when they finally appear on the market.

Another alarming trend is soldered WLAN modules - meaning no upgrades when 802.11ax rolls, and no WiGiG (because WiGiG only comes with discrete 18260). A few otherwise great machines were ruined for me by this engineering atrocity.

Finally, soldered storage. It's already here and doing well - Microsoft with their basically irrepairable Surface line, bottom of the barrel laptops with slow&small emmc - you name it. Apple with their obscure design choices and proprietary connectors is not far away in terms of uselessness, too.

 

for me LGA is must now as primarily i work on unity and have to keep my laptop almost 24/7 on some weeks, BGA won't do an year i bet with such loads and with LGA not only i have better temps control i can upgrade if it breaks. for me laptop is something i can easily move and since i always have an electric outlet wherever i go to work, i just need 20-40 min battery life incase power failure since i always work with power on and i need tht extra power the charger provides a BGA.( a desktop won't do since i move alot). also i need an MXM GPU too for the same reason.
i think for task like light browsing, chatting, calling stuff there are tablets under 300$ and they are pretty powerful too.

 

Progress is a funny thing, different people react to it in vastly different ways. Some for seemingly unfathomable reasons. Until you listen.

I recall having many in depth conversations with a software and hardware expert in the 70's, who was now retiring after 30 years helping build the future, where I was effectively taking the baton from him, standing on his shoulders to reach further into the future.

We talked about this many times, and early on one time he opened up about what a bunch of nitwits he was dealing with in his development lab, new kids that just didn't understand how things were done - insisting that things be done differently from what he had worked so hard to create over many years.

I tried to understand what he was complaining about during those early conversations, and his way as he described it made sense, but so did theirs, and the distinction was so subtle it took me a while to get it.

They were breaking up the work in ways that aligned with modern (at the time) programming methods - rolling up a number of jobs and steps into a more high level approach that matched the new high level languages they were moving into - away from machine code and assembly.

He didn't get the modularity approach as a time saver for creating software, he was fixated on the performance and optimizations available closer to the metal.

It was a really interesting ending, as I learned more programming I started to do the same with him - talk to him about the advantages of coding in a higher level language, but because we were already talking about such things over a long period of time I was able to help him understand why it was good, and he worked to make me understand that in the worst performing most used sections of the code I should use assembler.

I used a macro assembler to show him the reasons for high level language that rolled up functionality just as those macro's did to make coding in assembler faster and more time efficient. The multiplication of savings was greater with a higher level language even than macro assembler.

We both learned a lot, and he thanked me as much as I thanked him. He went to work and showed off his new understanding to his coworkers who were much more accepting of him, and offered to include him in new projects.

He didn't retire. At least that first time

Don't fight the future, embrace it and understand it's happening with or without you.

BGA and what follows it for even thinner and denser modular integration of functionality is going to continue beyond what we dreamed of 40 years ago, eventually.

 

I do not want it to be skewed either. If it turns out looking like the BGA filth vendors want us to believe is the right path, then it will be another confirmation that the future is hopeless and I should jump ship now rather than getting pulled under and drowning in a sea of urine and feces with the BGA zombie crew.

 

Making expensive disposable trashbooks and calling them high performance or gaming notebooks is not progress. It is a regression and fleecing of the ignorant. Anyone that plays the progress card in the context of BGA feces is simply using subtle hyperbole and attempting to manipulate popular "intelligence" to advance their own agenda using lame excuses, and in some cases abusing public perception of authority by masquerading as a SME. When examined objectively, the stupidity of the current trend in notebook design is clearly one of folly and degradation is inevitable. It should only exist as a low cost alternative, not a substitution.

 

That's one way of looking at it.

Another is people are making products other people want to buy.

Given current technology there's no way to fit your mind's eye (and mine) of the perfect high performance laptop into the form factor they think they want to buy.

Quieter, what they all work in libraries?

Thinner and lighter, what did everyone contract some form of muscular wasting disease?

It's true that one thing doesn't always follow another, but such as it was with Quad core coming from Dual core, we adapted to the slower core's for a while, and then they became faster - because we demanded it, the work demanded it, and it was done.

The process of fitting neutered components into little boxes forced Asus to innovate on a number of levels, and they pulled off some kinda feat putting a 1080 in a notebook that should overheat with a full 1060.

The benefits brought to the larger frame laptops might get us a 1080ti in a full frame laptop... or Volta. Maybe it was an exercise for the engineers to figure out the details of fitting Volta by way of a thin 1080 laptop?

You and I don't want that ****box thin notebook, but we do want that high end 1080ti laptop, hopefully with full performance.

And, that ****box will eventually seem to the owners of them what it is, a nuetered non-full performance laptop and they will start demanding more performance in that same thin laptop.

So the cycle continues.

Will we / they forget high end performance? I doubt it, I don't worry about it, it seems very unlikely. Humans are always interested in better performance and speed, that desire is not going away.

Desktop CPU's can still fit in laptops, at least most of them - the new ThreadRipper and Epyc won't, but maybe AMD will figure that out for AM4+

 

IIRC Clevo (and ASUS?) were working on fitting AM4 Ryzen 7 CPUs on laptops.
My next laptop is surely going to be one with a desktop CPU, just waiting for Clevo to release a laptop with desktop Ryzen.
I ain't purchasing Krappy Lake quad cores when octa-cores are out and are much better for productivity workloads.

 

The Asus is already out in some regions, with either a Ryzen 1600 or 1700 CPU

https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ROG-Strix-GL702ZC/

https://rog.asus.com/articles/g-ser...s-to-gaming-laptops-in-the-rog-strix-gl702zc/

 

Stock 6 core 8700K will beat the locked down 8 core R1700 in Asusbook. Not by a big margin, but with a decent OC it will be a Hell lot better. + you can as well have a better graphics in new Clevo's vs. what's in the Asus TurdBook.

@Prema Any info? Thanks

 

You really want to get me into trouble in the last moment eh?
It'll be a long weekend...

 

i think they are locked on both gpu and CPU, think i read in a benchmark review a while back. will be interesting if they introduce these with vega.

 

Again, none of those things are wrong. What is wrong is misrepresenting them and making those options the only options. That is where the problem exists. Limited options is never a good thing. They are making products that some people want to buy and ignoring the rest. Some are more forgiving and will just roll with the punches, but given the choice would choose a more robust product. Those people (the compromisers) create a false perception that the masses prefer inferior products. Unfortunately, it may be factual that the masses are willing to tolerate it, which leaves those that are not willing with no acceptable (or very few) options.

Point taken in the latter part of your comments. In fact, we are starting to see evidence of regrets. Hopefully, we will see an avalanche of BGA hate begin to emanate from those that were burned by the trash. Either way, it has potential to turn out better than it seems now. A testimony of never having been corrupt and needing redemption is effective to encourage those on the high road to stay on the high road. It doesn't help those in the gutter. A testimony of having been in the gutter and finally getting fed up with it and making a decision to straighten up and fly right, rejecting the past way of life, is more effective for those currently in the gutter. It gives them hope for a brighter future and let's them know they are not beyond the possibility of redemption.

 

No No No I fired only first shot

 

I must say after my experience this week, I am really glad my laptop has socketed internals.
Even though my laptop will be considered obsolete by most, it is still great for all my tasks. I was really happy once I found out that I only had to replace one part and not the whole system.

I am now completely convinced that my future purchases will always be socketed forms.

 

At the price now with Ryzen + RX 580 it's a bargain.

 

But they aren't the only options. LGA laptops are available.

BGA laptops are the only options from the companies that want to sell more laptops.

LGA laptops with big GPU's are a niche market, an impossible sell to most people, that's why so few companies make them.

Company's are in business to sell things people want to buy. If not enough people want to buy something it won't get made.

It's not the lack of availability of LGA laptops that's the problem, it's the demand, there isn't any.

Even if all the makers had a wide range of LGA laptops for sale, everyone would walk past them to the thin and light laptops, as that's what people want.

It's probably for the best really, can you imagine trying to support the average uninformed computer buyer, but now with a P870?

Why's it so loud? Where do the DVD's go? Why's it so heavy? Do I need both PSU's plugged in for it to work? Can I upgrade the 1070 to a 1080? Will you offer a 1080ti?

Will I be able to upgrade my 7700K CPU to an 8700K CPU when it comes out? Why not, it's LGA so I can upgrade my CPU when new one's come out? What about my GPU, can I upgrade to Volta when it comes out? Why not?

It'd be a nightmare...

 

I actually do not believe all of that. Some of it is fabricated perception by companies that don't want to support higher standards and go out of their way to create a public perception that supports their quest for wealth at the expense of all else. They bank on the stupidity and tolerance of the masses, both of which produce the same pathetic end result.

But, there is a massive generation of money spending morons with low standards. I do agree with that part. We see this in many areas of life that have nothing to do with computers. Social decay and diminished standards have corrupted things for all of us in so many ways they are uncountable, and the really ludicrous thing is the perpetrators of that decay consider themselves to be enlightened. They are unable to even identify their wretched state of being and get all butt-hurt if anyone calls their bluff on it. After all, they have every right to be as messed up if they want to be. How dare the rest of us question their intelligence or accurately identify their state of decay! Who the hell do we think we are? LOL.

And, great men like @Donald@HIDevolution get caught in the middle between the extremes, trying to cater to wishes of those in the gutter as well as those on the mountain.

 

Looks like Socketed Mightybooks are completely decimating against BGA Turdbooks! Thank you @Mr. Fox , @Papusan and the mighty @Prema !

 

I fixed that for you. And, the answer is yes. And, you can replace the motherboard without having to pay extra for a CPU and GPU, and you can keep that CPU that treated you so well in the silicon lottery.

This is the part where the rationale of "upgrades are pointless and repairs don't matter" clowns get swept aside for being the ludicrous ramblings of the ignorant.

 

A TurdBook with fully soldered hardware vs. a laptop with socketed hardware which none can upgrade is a lot worse!! The cooling will suffer in thin and flimsy(soldered books). Yeah I know, it's Not acceptable with laptops who could be upgraded but still a lot better choice. Can't compare them.

 

So all the guys that bought P870's and couldn't upgrade and instead had to sell and get new laptops are wrong to be upset when they couldn't upgrade?

What about the guys that want to upgrade from 1070 to 1080 but have no trade-in path and have to spend $1200++ for a new motherboard + new GPU upgrade? Not very cost effective.

The current new laptops with 7700k won't be able to upgrade to the 8700k because they need new motherboard's with new chipset's, at least that's the word out there now. Intel can't even commit one way or the other publicly, we have to hear it via accidental leaks.

Nvidia has stopped supporting MXM moving forward, that didn't stop Pascal development of MXM, but it did keep them from providing MXM boards that fit the Maxwell MXM laptops.

There's just a huge minefield out there on LGA / MXM upgrades, there's no certainties at all to give to buyers, IDK how they are getting sold on the upgradeable basis - they aren't are they?

Performance wise they are top level, same for repairs - except for costs - but LGA / MXM upgradeability is as off the table as can be.

 

I don't understand how hmscott's post about companies selling to the mass market is a bad one though. IIRC, BGA saves a few bucks for the OEM vs LGA, and when you're selling millions of units to the mass market, that sort of difference matters to the bottom line. There's also nothing wrong with mass market customers not knowing enough about the internals to care about BGA v LGA; for a car example, most people (myself included) either don't understand the intricate details of how a car works and/or process the ability/desire to replace the internals with aftermarket car parts. For many, many people a car is simply an applicance to get from point A to point B and other factors are more important than internal upgradeability (for example, I don't care about replacing my 1.4L turbo with a LS, assuming that could even be possible in my car, but I do care a lot about the price, MPG, and creature comforts in the cabin). Likewise, for a lot of people a computer is simply an applicance to connect to the Internet, play some games, and generally aid them in accomplishing tasks in their lives, not as an object to obsess over (car analogy: petroheads).

I'm also really confused over the overtly-strong language about the people in the mass market. "Social decay and diminished standards have corrupted things for all of us in so many ways they are uncountable", "...bank on the stupidity and tolerance of the masses, both of which produce the same pathetic end result" ..... that's a hell of a hyperbole for a discussion about computer parts... surely you wouldn't say the same about car users, coffee drinkers, music listeners, etc (with respect to their mass markets v enthusiast markets)?