Installing OS on mSata drive

Hi,
I have just purchased a Dell Inspiron 15Z 5523 which comes with a 32MB mSata SSD. I have also purchased a 256GB Crucial mSata with the intention of replacing the current 32GB with this.

I have been told that the mSata that is installed can only be used as a cache and that the OS cannot be installed on it.

I can see the mSata in the BIOS but not in "My Computer".

Does anyone know if I will be able to install my 256GB in place of the 32GB mSata and install Windows on it.

System is currently running Windows 8. (Laptop is only 2 days old)

Thanks

 

Is there a switch in the BIOS that allows you to turn off the cache feature? If there isn't, I don't think you'll be able to use the mSATA as a bootable OS drive.

 

also dont forget that msata drives are only sataII which is slower compared to normal SSD's which are sataIII

no idea on dells warranty but i would check it wont invaladate your warranty changing the msata. im not even sure where the chip is in dells

 

Not all mSATA SSD's are SATA2 - there are SATA3 variants along with the required mSATA3 enabled slots - but at only 32GB capacity I agree that the mSATA SSD will be MUCH slower than the 256GB mSATA SSD.

I also agree that without a BIOS 'switch' to disable the caching behavior this may indicate that the notebook is 'locked' into having an mSATA device for caching only - but take a look for any Windows utility from the manufacturer that might also control and allow you to disable the caching behavior (it will still do this by configuring the BIOS...).

I do know that Intel RST drivers are needed to enable the caching - but those drivers will not give any control over how the mSATA port is configured/used.


Instead of all the 'theoretical' stuff we can throw at you - if you have the parts in front of you: simply remove ALL drives from the computer and install the 256GB mSATA and see if you can install Win8 to it. Even if you can't, it still may give some error message/clues as to what needs to be enabled for this to happen.

(If/when you do get this working - I highly recommend that you install with JUST the drive you want Windows installed to - otherwise; you can run into a situation where while Windows is installed to where you want - it may require another drive that was present during install to boot from - this is a recipe for disaster if/when the drive is dead/not available and you can't get to your O/S and programs/data).


Good luck.

 

I'm thinking there is nothing in BIOS preventing the mSATA from being used as something besides cache, as most/all SSD caches are just software.

Boot off a normal Windows installation disc and see if it detects the mSATA SSD.

 

zippyzap said:

Hey! That's what I said!

 

You can with Windows 7. Not sure if there are any issues with doing this with windows 8. But the steps for Windows 7 would be the same. It involves deactivating the current mSATA cache drive. Then resetting it to available, and then going into the BIOS and making sure the SSD is set to AHCI mode.

*catches breath*

Detailed steps (you need to have Intel RST installed)

Step1. Launch Intel RST UI from system tray.

Step2. Select “Accelerate” Tab, click “Disable acceleration”.

Step3. Click “Reset to available” to reset volume.

Step4. Restart the system. When Dell logo comes up hit the F2 to enter the BIOS. Click ‘Advanced’ tab, and then under ‘Sata Operation’, make sure it's set to "AHCI". Change it to that mode it it's not. Now save/exit the BIOS and turn off your system. You can now install your new mSATA and it should show up as an unpartitioned drive which the OS can be installed on (in theory).

 

Thanks everyone. I will try and install it anyway and see what happens. I have to strip the machine right down and remove the motherboard so should be fun!!!
Will let you know over the next couple of weeks when I pluck up the courage to open it up!!

Thanks

 

Ok. I managed to strip the laptop down and install the 256GB msata drive. As was suggested I had to disable acceleration and can now see the drive and install software on it..
The drive is a Crucial m4 so reads at 500 MB/s and reads at 250MB/s.

Although I can see the drive and use it as a normal drive I cant see how to set it up as a boot drive. The Inspiron 15Z BIOS shows drive 0 as a SATA drive and Drive 1 as msata but there doesn't seem to be anywhere to set Drive 1 as the main drive.

I don't want to physically remove the hard drive as it requires a complete strip down which took me 2 hours!! The battery requires the same strip down!! Hope I don't ever need a new battery!!

Any ideas??

 

Pony up. Strip it down and remove the HDD and do a clean install onto the mSATA (with the HDD removed) - this is how to do it best (you're the one that doesn't like completely stripping down the system) and this is also how you do it once.



Good luck.

 

The Boot tab in the BIOS sets which drive the system will boot from first. + and - moves the different items up and down the list.

 

curious, on a similar note... I just installed a mSATA 256GB SSD in my g46 and is blank, and currently have the boot drive as the Samsung 840 Pro. Pondering replacing the 840 SSD with a 750-1TB HDD for extra storage and using the mSATA SSD as the OS drive for speed.... would cloning the 256GB 840 Pro SSD to the Crucial mSATA 256GB SSD be a terrible idea? I always hear people fussing about "alignment" but I don't really understand what that means and I have a freshly setup install of Windows 8 Pro running great on the Samsung....

 

Alignment is only for mechanical hard drives. Not an issue with data on SSDs. But cloning always presents a unique set of problems. Any file, program, or system errors (or potential malware) which are on your 840 will transfer to your mSATA if you clone. The recommendation is always to do a clean install on your new boot drive (mSATA) and then transfer any needed files from the SSD over to the mSATA. But I am confused. Why get rid of your 840 SSD anyway. By design it will run faster than your mSATA drive. I know you stated you need a bigger drive for storage, but is it possible for you to get an external drive or a network enclosure for a hard drive? That way you still have your 2.5" SSD and an available storage drive.

 

radji, alignment is even more important for SSD's - not only does performance tank - it also affects the health and longevity of the drive by greatly increasing WA during every write and during GC and TRIM subroutines and can put the SSD into a performance 'corner' that will need a Secure Erase to fully recover from.

Combine a non-aligned SSD with a high % filled usage case and performance will be below HDD levels, overall. Not to mention it is effectively being used in an 'enterprise-like' workload (constant re-writing of data...) and the nominal reliability ratings from the manufacturer go out the window (not to say they won't warrantee it - that is a case by case basis, but the actual use (especially the greatly increased 4K R R/W's due to the alignment issues) greatly exceeds what the manufacturer foresaw of the drive in 'normal' use).





.

 

Wow.

I understand you need to align an SSD when cloning it so the logical sector and the physical sector start on the same page. I know if they aren't that puts more wear on the SSD. But I was told if one was to clean install Windows 7 on a new SSD, the Windows installer will align the partition automatically. I was under the impression if the SSD partition is aligned to start out with, it will stay that way unless the data becomes corrupted for some reason. Here is the major articles I read thru. Let me know if they are mistaken.

SSD Alignment - Windows 7 Forums

How to: Properly re-align your SSD/HDD partitions

I think I am going to scan my SSD with Acronis right now...

 

Wow, in 2 hours (exactly) you went from one extreme to the other.


Cloning does not necessarily clone the proper alignment... Data corruption does not change alignment... clean install is different (for the O/S and many programs too) than a clone...


Cloning is a waste of time (if you have to do a clean install anyways) and/or a sub-optimal process of getting a new drive (HDD/SSD) up and running properly (for the long-term).


A clean install ensures that no un-accounted for variables slip by if and when any issues arise later. If they do - it wasn't from any junk left over from the previous (to cloning) install and energy could be directed appropriately. If the system was cloned - you are troubleshooting the cloning process too: good luck debugging one-use software (for free - whether you paid for it or not).

 

Well as a mechanic I always keep an open mind. Trust but verify. Just because you've been doing something for a while doesn't mean it's the right way, no matter how many people are telling you it is. It only takes a 5mm screw to stop a bulldozer.

Well those two articles are what I've been going off of since I got my SSD last year. I never clone my drives anyway. I believe in clean installing everytime, no exceptions. And a clean install once a year will lessen the chance of malware and data corruption...but that's just me. I just ran AS SSD Benchmark. I knew my SSD partition would be aligned (which it was) since I just did a clean install earlier this week, but my RAID partition was aligned as well. As per my sig, I have two 750GB HDDs in RAID 0 for my storage volume. They've been that way since I installed them last year. And they are 2/3rds full I've been adding files, music and movies since I setup the volume. Now the AS SSD Benchmark says that RAID partition is aligned as well. Is that just because of the way the data is written on a RAID array or something else?

 

The reason your RAID is properly aligned is because you are using Windows 7 and it is 'alignment aware'.

A clean install repeated once a year is no guarantee of a virus-free or data corruption-free platform. One does not affect the other. Virus infection is random as is corruption from hardware based reasons. You can complete a re-install today and tomorrow the storage sub-system can fail or otherwise corrupt data as easily as getting a virus the next day too.

I advise against a re-install ever since Windows 7 was originally released: the most stable Windows platform to date (with Win8x64 quickly earning the same respect and high praise with each passing day).


To ensure an aligned partition with a Windows 7 or 8 (x64 or x86) setup disk: all partitions must be removed from the drive in question. Then you can create your first partition with a Custom Install (or, to use the full capacity (not recommended) - just click 'Install').


With this first partition aligned properly (as above), each additional partition created is also properly and optimally aligned for the O/S installer it was created with.

For example: in my Win7 installer 100GB created O/S partitions (HDD or SSD's) - the 'hidden' partition is 100MB and I take this into account by making the installer create a 102600 MB partition (which it warns will create an addition partition - being the 100MB hidden one).

With the Win8 installer, the same 100GB partition created also creates a 350MB hidden partition - I account for that by 'requesting' a 103000 MB partition to achieve at least a 100GB partition that I want/need.


With a Win9 installer, that will change I'm sure - but what they will all have in common is that the partitions created will be properly aligned and the hidden partition optimally sized for the O/S intended.

But once again: this 'alignment' is a one time thing: do it properly and you never need to check it again. Nor do you need to annually re-install Win7/Win8 for optimum performance or reliability - unless you're abusing the O/S with many, many installs/uninstalls of useless and/or dubious programs and 'apps'.

 

Yup, that's me. Installing apps I only need one or two times, then uninstalling them. My boot drive is setup the same way as yours. I delete all partitions and let the Windows installer do the formatting and partition management. I take the total available space, deduct 20% for over provisioning, then create the OS partition with the number I have left (plus the 100MB system partition Windows creates ahead of the OS partition). I know a clean install is not a guaranteed protection from malware. I do the clean install to lessen the possible damage caused in case something has gotten into my system. I've been burned pretty hard by viruses before and no matter what antivirus I get, they won't be able to block everything. Just recently Norton alerted me it had detected a java bug which I probably got from the java security loophole. Despite all the hotfixes and patches, I couldn't get the malware removed and ended up doing a reformat and clean install. I should probably stop doing yearly clean installs though and just be more responsible about which programs I use and install.

 

Just to be clear (and I agree with a lot of what you said above):

I leave at least 30% (up to 70%) as unallocated for SSD's - even HDD's I leave allocated only the space I need to use now (any extra capacity slows down the drive by it needing to do full platter swings).

I also only use 100GB for my O/S + Program drive for many years now (since before Vista came out) - and in the specific systems where I don't use all that capacity: I still have C:\ sized at 100GB (by creating a second/third partition for data...) but I may shrink it anywhere from 80GB to 50GB if I can still have ~25GB 'free space' on the C:\ with a more limited Programs installation. Especially in a HDD based platform: shrinking the C:\ always improves O/S performance and responsiveness, but positive results are achieved with SSD's too.

Any remaining capacity (HDD or SSD) is used as the data drive - and this too is 'shrunk' to as small a capacity as is needed - improving performance, responsiveness and giving us the ability to find/search for ALL of our data in a single partition (instead of very specific folders in the C:\ - some of which may be hidden by default).

 

Impressive. That's highly efficient. I'm the exact opposite when it comes to my storage drives. I store a LOT of movies and stuff on my RAID volume so I made the partition take up the full space available on the drives. It's not like the RAID partition is always in use, so I'm not too concerned with wear and tear. I consider myself fortunate the WD HDDs I've had over the years have been so reliable (except for the WD Green drives...those things are total CRAP!). I would like to shrink down my OS partition, but I have a pair of storage hoarding programs. One takes 36GB the other takes 85GB. Those combined with the 30GB normally used by my OS and programs, and I'm not left with a whole heck of a lot of space on my primary drive in case I need to save stuff to my desktop. If I leave 30% for over provisioning, I would only have ~10GB left of free space on my OS partition. That's just too small for me to feel comfortable with. So I know space saving techniques aren't for me, but I will search for other SSD tweaks and optimizations to extend the life of my SSD.

You have inspired me

 

Don't ignore the possibility to shrink to a less than 30% 'over-provisioned' - it all helps.


Even Anand suggests 25% over-provisioned for any SSD:

See:
AnandTech - Exploring the Relationship Between Spare Area and Performance Consistency in Modern SSDs

 

Right now my over provisioning is at 20%. If I see I have the space later on, I will try and shrink my SSD volume to give me 25% over provisioning.

 

Ok. Since everyone seems to be ignoring the actual topic, I'll give it a shot.

If you can see the mSATA drive in Windows then it is definitely possible to boot from it. However it sounds like your BIOS won't let you, but this just means it's trickier. I'll explain briefly.

On modern computers, the BIOS doesn't actually boot your operating system. The BIOS loads a bootloader in a 446 byte block on the boot media (the MBR), which doesn't allow nearly the complexity to boot anything like a modern OS. Instead it boots a second-stage bootloader that boots the main OS. Examples of 2nd stage bootloaders are NTLDR for windows and grub for linux. The 2nd stage in general has to be on the same disk as the MBR, however it can boot an operating system on any available disk.

What this means is that you'll have to install Windows such that the OS is on the mSATA drive, but 2nd stage bootloader is on the hard disk. Then your BIOS will be able to boot NTLDR, which will then boot Windows on the mSATA disk.

There's no real straightforward way to do this. The easiest way might be to completely wipe both drives and do a clean install on the harddrive, and then install Windows on the mSATA. Hopefully the Windows installer will put the bootloader on the HDD and leave it there during the second install. This doesn't always work though, but you can use something like EasyBCD to edit the bootloader. The important thing is to install the bootloader on the hard drive.

 

We're not ignoring him. I already replied back that he should be able to change his boot order in the BOOT tab in his BIOS. He just needs to expand the hard drive category and raise the mSATA drive up to the top of the boot order list. Plus since the OP has a UEFI BIOS they should lock the Boot priority order once they have Windows installed on their mSATA.

 

Ah I didn't notice how recent the timestamps were.

From the comments he wrote though I gathered that the mSATA drive isn't in the boot order. I have a similar gen Dell and it's the same way; mSATA doesn't show up in the boot menu no matter where you look. I know many older Lenovos are also the same way. I'm guessing Dell designed the BIOS to not allow mSATA booting.

 

The OP said they can see the mSATA in the BIOS summary but not in Windows, which is consistent with the mSATA being used as a cache drive. You may very well be right. Dell, Lenovo, and other OEMs may have locked that function out of the BIOS. But it's still worth a try to see if the OP can set the mSATA drive to AHCI, install their new 256GB mSATA and see if they can set it in the boot order.

 

OK, in the main BIOS the list shows-
Fixed HDD - WDCWD5000LPVT
SATA ODD - HL-DT-ST DVD+/- RW
mSATA Deveice - M4-CT256M4SSD3

but when I go to the Boot screen all I get is-
Boot list option - [UEFI]
File Browser Add Boot Option
File Browser Del Boot option
Secure Boot - [Enabled]
Load Legacy Option Rom - [Disabled]
Boot Option priorities
Boot option #1 - [Windows Boot Manager]
Boot option #2 - [UEFI OS]
Boot option #3 - [UEFI: Network Card]
Boot option #4 - [UEFI : Network Card]

These are the only boot options available. If I select one and scroll through it it just shows the 3 choices above.

I just cannot get it to boot from the mSATA. looks like I have got a bloody big cache drive!!!

 

Do you have AHCI or RAID SATA mode enabled (need AHCI).

 

I have set the mode to AHCI

 

First off, you don't have Windows installed on your mSATA drive yet, correct? Also, you don't have the mSATA set to cache drive still in Windows, right? First thing under the boot tab is I would disable secure boot. Then go to Boot Option #1 and see if it gives you a list to choose from when you hit enter. If it doesn't, go to the boot list option and change it from UEFI to legacy. See if that gives you the ability to change over the boot drive to the mSATA. Don't worry about playing around with the settings a bit. It's not like you have unlocked BIOS and all's you need to remember is you can always revert to the previous BIOS settings by exiting without saving from the BIOS. I would also recommend you remove the hard drive as to force the BIOS and the Windows installer to install to the mSATA but I don't know how hard it is to get to the HDD in the new Dell laptops.

 

pcsatman, it sounds like more likely than not you won't be able to boot your mSATA from the BIOS. You'll have to bootstrap your mSATA drive to your hard drive like I outlined above. That's what I'm doing right now with my Dell, and it works great.

 

Yeah, I keep thinking the same thing. But changing to legacy mode might just be the last ditch effort to get the mSATA to show up boot priority list.

*fingers and toes crossed*

 

Another thing to check is if you have the latest BIOS. It looks like the latest version is X24 A02 and it came out on 12/14/12. There's a slight chance that maybe Dell added mSATA boot.

 

Some of you are giving too many worries to pcsatman! My guess is, he will install the mSATA SSD, boot up, and he will get a message asking to initialize it, then format it, then it will show up as a drive. That is what happened to me,

I recently got my Lenovo X230 with a Sandisk 16GB mSATA SSD pre-installed, as well as the 500GB HDD. I was surprised that although I could see the 16GB drive in Disk Management, it did not show up as a drive in My Computer. I had also ordered a 256GB mSATA SSD to replace it with, and make the boot drive, and was worried that it might not show up as a drive.

In asking in a forum, I was told that the program expresscache (by Diskeeper) was installed, which made the SSD into a cache. I was told to uninstall it, and the SSD would show up as a drive in My Computer. (Look in Programs, and see if you have expresscache.)

Well, I didn't uninstall expresscache, but I turned off and disabled its service. Surprising to me, that 16GB drive still did not show up under Computer, even after rebooting.

But right after I installed my 256GB SSD, booted up, I got a message asking hime to initialize that drive, then format it, then I saw it in Computer.

 

OK, thanks for the info guys. I can see the mSATA after switching off the cache. I will try to install windows on it as I have just purchased Windows 8 Pro. Fingers, toes and everything crossed.

 

OP, tell us if there is a program called Expresscache under add/remove programs. Also, look in Administrative Tools, Computer Management, Disk Management, and I bet you will see the drive there, although with no letter.

The drive came with the computer, so clearly there is no question of the BIOS not recognizing the drive. There isn't yet a question of booting from it--he is waiting for his larger drive to install, before he installs the OS to this drive and makes it bootable. The manufacturer installed it with expresscache or a similar program to make it a cache, probably most common where a computer has a small msata ssd pre-installed. The larger one will not be used for the cache though, but will appear as a drive, after being initialized and formatted.

 

Glad you got it to work. I could actually never see the driive as a drive when I had the 16GB SSD in there. As soon as I switched to the 256GB one I was able to, after initialization and formatting.

I haven't yet had time to do the clean Windows install on it yet though. Let us know how yours goes.

 

Ok, I have tried everything- BIOS is up to date and I can see the drive but even when I install to it I cannot get it to boot. I am giving up and just going to use the mSATA as a data drive.
It requires a complete strip down to disconnect the HDD and I am scared that I will damage the multitude of ribbon connectors that need disconnected each time you open the laptop.

To even change the battery requires the complete frame to be removed from the pc. Must remember not to buy a Dell again!!!!

Thanks everyone for all your help.

 

Did you try what I suggested and change the BIOS over to legacy mode and see if you can set the mSATA to the top of the boot priority order then?

 

Yes, tried that. BIOS just does not allow me to boot from mSATA. I can't see any way of disabling the HDD from the BIOS. On the initial BIOS screen both the HDD and the mSATA appear as drive 0 and drive 1 but in the boot screen it doesn't actually mention either drive. It comes up with windows boot manager, uefi device x 2 and network.

 

I don't think your in the right BIOS tab then. All BIOS (or at least all the newer BIOS I've seen) will allow you to switch between UEFI and Legacy BIOS mode. In legacy BIOS, you may be able to change the boot priority order based on device. Refer to this photo.



Take a photo of the boot tab of your BIOS screen and post the photo here. It will help me guide you if I'm not doing it blind. Remember, the initial screen when you enter the BIOS isn't the boot tab.

 

Thanks Radji

Will get a look at it tomorrow and report back.

 

Good response, odds are you've nailed it.

The BIOS (not American Megatrends) on my own X220 and T530 have a similar setting, under the tab called "Startup"

OTOH times are changing. See: Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specifically: >"With the release of Windows 8 in October 2012, Microsoft's certification requirements now require that computers include firmware that implements the UEFI specification. Furthermore, if the computer supports the "Connected Standby" feature of Windows 8, then the firmware is not permitted to contain a Compatibility Support Module (CSM). As such, systems that support Connected Standby are incapable of booting Legacy BIOS operating systems."<

BTW nice pic above. What camera did you use?

 

No camera. Just looked up Legacy BIOS mode under google and found a photo that gave the best detail of what he should look for.

 

OK, cracked it!!!!
1. Disabled "Rapid Start Technology" in the advanced screen of the BIOS.
2. Went to Boot tab and and change Boot List Option to "Legacy"
3. Disabled Secure Boot and Voila!! This then changes the devices to the legacy as you suggested Radji. The list of devices then shows "Second HDD" which on my laptop is the mSATA.

Thanks very much for your help. What threw me was having to go to the advanced screen and disable the Rapid Start.
only problem now is I have set up everything except windows on the mSATA. Do I start again or just leave windows on the HDD. The system takes about 8 seconds to boot from cold so can't complain at moment.

 

Told ya legacy mode would fix it. Didn't know you had to disable fast boot to get it to show. I will remember that for next time and rest assured...there WILL be a next time.

I'm not sure what you mean by the fact you've set up everything except Windows on the mSATA. I thought you wanted to install Windows on your mSATA? If so, then you do need to clean install Windows to your mSATA drive. Once that's done, I would recommend you plugging an external drive to your notebook, transferring all your files and folders off your existing HDD to the external one (except for the Windows folder, of course), then do a format of your internal HDD to remove the boot code. That way the BIOS won't try to boot from the internal HDD again.

 

radji, doing that may also make the new boot drive unbootable - I would recommend to remove all drives except the drive you want your Windows install to. Then, do what radji suggested.

(This will ensure the boot code will be 'tied' to the drive that has the O/S and not any other drive that happened to be in the system at the time of O/S installation).

 

OK Radji, I have got the laptop booting from the mSATA. I have done a clean install and formatted the hdd. I did not want to unplug the hdd due to the time it takes to do a complete strip down of this machine. It appears to wotk fine and have installed everything onto the mSATA and will use the hdd for data.
Thanks again for everyones help.

 

De nada. I figured you didn't want to have to disembowel your notebook just to get to the hard drive. But for reference, tilleroftheearth is 110% right. You should always remove your existing boot drive, then setup and clean install your new SSD/mSATA and verify your system is booting from it normally before removing the boot code from your existing hard drive. The benefit of this is if anything goes wrong with the clean install then you need only reinstall your existing hard drive to get your system working again. It's a great way of protecting yourself in the event something goes wrong. Good luck to you and have fun with your mSATA.

You're absolutely right. I completely left that step out. +1 to you sir.