Intel Core i9-9900k 8c/16t, i7-9700K 8c/8t, i7-9600k 6c/6t 2nd Gen Coffee Lake CPU's + Z390

I have to believe the newer stepping R0 9900K also have the protections at hardware level and therefore higher performance/less performance loss due to such mitigations but we don't know for sure yet. What we do know is the R0 Stepping 9900KS performs better than a 9900K P0 with software mitigation in place.

 

You talk about clock for clock (IPC) or the higher clock speed for KS? The latter is correct. Higher clocks beats P0 stepping

Btw...
ps://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-9900ks-silicon-lottery-pre-binned-cpus-available/

 

Why would anyone purchase from them? They are charging $599 (above retail) for a 5Ghz -2 AVX offset chip. All 9900KS can do 5Ghz all cores out box at stock. They are literally selling their "loser" chips above retail, what a joke. My brother and I both got 9900KS on launch day and both can do at least 5.2Ghz stable. Paying above retail for a guaranteed silicon lottery loser is just downright stupid on every level.

 

"You can also purchase the normal Intel Core i9 9900KS @ 5.0GHz Special Edition from Silicon Lottery, however, who does that as you know they have been binned and you'd be buying the worst batch, at a higher price?"
https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/c...urther-binned-to-5200-mhz-sells-for-1200.html

 

You both missed the most important / valuable piece of data to be gleaned from SL's binning - they always list the % of each bin for the last batch tested.

" As of 11/3/19, the top 3% of tested 9900KS were able to hit 5.2GHz or greater."

So the "luck of the draw" is 3% for the 9900ks to reach 5.2ghz all core...

$1200 seems like a lot moola for a better shot at 100mhz higher OC, and that 3% @ 5.2ghz for the 9900KS doesn't seem like a great enough chance to spend ~$549+ for a 9900ks vs. ~$471 or less for a 9900k.

 

Silicon lottery has 1.325 as highest voltage they will validate. Up to the owners increase voltage for higher bin. They have a max voltage target for each bin.

 

I thought one of the "rumors" was that the R0 silicon (new 9900ks / 9900k) needs less voltage, not more?

If anything maybe Silicon Lottery is using too much power? Maybe more % will qualify at higher multipliers with lower voltage with R0 steppings?

 

Yeah, better binned means normally less voltage. But no chips is equal good. And two differnt chips with same voltage doesn't necessarily means same temperature/power consumption.

From Tomshardware article below... "However, the company can't validate voltages higher than 1.325V due to thermal issues"
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/pre-binned-intel-core-i9-9900ks-silicon-lottery-dollar599

I expect they prefer to do this way due the cooling system they use for the validating as well the MB used. Better cooling means you can squize out more from the chips.

 

compare stats for 9900K, 9900KF and 9900KS on SL database. ull see that K and KF are basically equal, whereas KS is shifted about 1 multi up. (i.e. one multi higher at same voltage or one voltage bin down at same multi)

Sent from my Xiaomi Mi Max 2 (Oxygen) using Tapatalk

 

The differences are due to the new R0 stepping vs the old P0 stepping.

As the R0 stepping comes to all the 9900xx's (other production CPU sku's too?), the R0 stepping 9900ks won't be alone in getting the "better" performance.

 

What was the microcode revision of the P0 9900K that was tested?
C4 (or C6, I honestly forgot if it's C4 or C6) microcode is a piece of Dog feces even on an old W10 build like 1703 (which doesn't have any OS mitigations if it isn't fully updated).
A2, AE and BE are much better and have identical performance on a windows build with all mitigations disabled.

 

What I am curious about is with the 9900ks or 9900k R0, can the built in mitigations be disabled? I know some require the OS to enable / support them, but are there changes that are always enabled in the newer stepping microcode included?

And, if you disable the mitigations in the OS, are the latency benefits of the new R0 stepping also disabled?

 

@Talon can test his 9900KS with InSpectre tool

 

I was hoping he'd figure that out - hint hint -

That way he can enable / disable mitigations and compare results - what shows / doesn't show in InSpectre and it's effect on performance.

Could be fun

 

Always fun with new hardware. And more fun if you can upgrade or downgrade your machine for benching


Edit. First bench after 10 years tucked away in the drawer
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...ers-welcome-too.810490/page-672#post-10964266

 

Sorry just seeing this now, I will test this out shortly. I wondered about that myself, but since the chip has hardware mitigation, would we be applying software and hardware mitigation if selected on? What would be the default setting? Somewhat confusing for sure. Either way I would always choose to have them off since I feel the risk to my essentially pure gaming machine is pretty low.

 

Yes, you would still have software fixes. Spectre and meltdown were a multitude of flaws. Same with the later L1 cache flaw, the memory flaw, the HT flaw, etc. The hardware fixes only addressed certain Spectre and other flaws. Microcode, firmware, and software mitigations are still in play here, just like they are with cascade-sp and cascade-X.

The hardware mitigations are baked in. There is no off switch. But you can still remove the software mitigations.

Does that make more sense of the hardware/software mitigation issue? Now, for microcode fixes, that comes down to firmware version used or OS version used. Firmware will update the microcode auto magically. You must use a firmware new enough to use the KS processor. So it may take some research. As to the OS, if the MB is no longer updating security or firmware patches, the OS loads the newer microcode during the secure boot loading for windows and during some phase for Linux. So, you would have to make sure you use an old enough version of windows 10 or earlier AND need to make sure the update from MS containing the microcode is not installed.

And that is just for the microcode. Then there is the actual patches to mitigate the vulnerabilities on top of that.

Just wanted to give more info on it.

 

It looks as though the 9900KS is Meltdown hardware protected. In fact once I disabled OS mitigation via Inspectre tool I cannot re enable it! I've rebooted a few times and it always just defaults to OFF now. Using the MDS tool, it appears my chip is not affected by Meltdown at all due to the hardware mitigation. It appears to also have taken care of the MDS vulnerabilities.

Odd that it also recognizes the 9900KS as Whiskey Lake vs Coffee Lake?

https://imgur.com/a/i2bi6JX

Cinebench shows essentially same performance with Spectre turned on and off via Inspectre. I need to do testing using something else.

 

Maybe you actually have INCREASED performance now that Meltdown is being taken care of in hardware and the software Meltdown mitigations are disabled? I'm kinda surprised that the software mitigations weren't turned off by default if your hardware contains the mitigations itself - I would have thought Windows might have auto detected your CPU had that hardware mitigation and so switched off it's software mitigation. You'd think that Microsoft could provide updates to turn off unnecessary software mitigations when new hardware comes on the scene. Do you have more performance now that you have manually turned off Meltdown software protection? (You still have the protection in hardware, so I guess that's all good).

 

Refreshing to see a channel that is actually taking the time to really dive deep into thermal and power testing for the 9900KS. His results are strikingly similar to the results I showed here with my own 9900KS. The part that is most interesting to me is the power consumption savings especially as you drive the clockspeeds up which leads to some seriously improved thermals.

 

important for us laptop folks

Sent from my Xiaomi Mi Max 2 (Oxygen) using Tapatalk

 

Not quite enough detail, I'm assuming he had that 9900k around for a long time and it's the old P0 stepping silicon, while the new 9900ks is the new R0 stepping silicon.

Hopefully someone will compare 9900k R0 vs 9900ks R0, what someone buying a brand new 9900k/ks would get today.

Check ur stepping and manufacturing code digits!! CPU-Z "Revision" if you already have it installed and lost the box...

hixday93800 2 months ago
"I just bought a i9 9900k 2 weeks ago how do I know if mine is a r0 please ?"

Mappi75 1 month ago
"On the box you will see: SRG19"

Matthew Emery 3 months ago
"Is there really a huge difference in capability between the P0 and R0 stepping? I just got my i9 9900k from Amazon and the S-Spec is SRELS on the package which means P0 I think. Wondering if I should send it back and get a newer one?"

Overclocking Intel Core i9 9900K R0 stepping to 5.8GHz+ on Water Cooling
Luumi
Published on May 26, 2019
On this short video I will show you how I test this R0 stepping 9900K in Cinebench and for max validation. During the video the CPU passes 5.4 in R15 with 1.34 set Vcore and validates 5.83GHz with all cores and threads with 1.5v set Vcore on ambient based water cooling. I use my 5.2GHz 4300CL17 daily profile as a starting point and work my way up in the OS.

Key is in the temperatures as I previously managed to pass 5.4 with only 1.3v set and 5.5 with 1.38v set when temperatures were lower due to lower ambient temperature. Next step is to lap the CPU IHS to possibly gain a few degrees.

Now I used HD PVR Rocket to Capture the video instead of filming the monitor.

Hardware used:

9900K R0 stepping
EVGA Z390 Dark
2x8Gb HyperX Predator 4133 CL19 @ 4133MHz 17-18-18-28 2T
Galax 710 GT
Seasonic Prime 1300W Platinum
Kingpincooling KPx

EVGA OC Lab forum for Z390 Dark tools and BIOS etc: https://forums.evga.com/EVGA-OC-Lab-f...

Follow me at HWBOT: https://hwbot.org/user/luumi/


And, don't forget to do a motherboard BIOS firmware update to support the R0 stepping - check that there is one for your motherboard before buying an R0 stepping CPU:

Intel's New 'R0 Stepping' 9th Gen Processors Will Crash Windows 10 Without New BIOS Update

And, be careful if you decide to "delid" your soldered 9900k/ks:

I Got A Broken 9900K
BPS Customs
Published on May 19, 2019


Pinned by BPS Customs
oldmanian 5 months ago
"I did make sure it was good prior to delid & I did use the Der8auer tool shown in the video. Wasn’t my first delid, but was my last delid on 9900k lol. I’d recommend Silicon Lottery or Main Performance PC for their delid services. Both do an excellent job in my experience. Thumbs up for the video in place of ‘F’ respects."

 

Some Live 9900KS LN2 OC.

 

Kind of old news at this point, but luckily a non-issue as you can still boot all previous BIOS with the new CPU installed and simply perform the update procedure via internet or USB.

However, having spoken to motherboard and manufacturers MSI and Gigabyte about the issue is not. as bad as I'd feared. Unlike a generational update, where you may not be able to get into the motherboard of the EFI when using a new CPU and the old motherboard BIOS, this time it looks like you will be able to at least boot your PC and enter the EFI to update the BIOS with one of the new R0 CPU stepping-compatible versions.

 

Funny, I thought new 9900ks owners were complaining that they crashed in Windows without the update?

Maybe it's only a Windows problem? Linux? You can get into the BIOS and do an update from there, and not go into Windows. Or use the USB "flashback" like features on some motherboards to avoid even going into the BIOS.

This guy found problems with R0 vs P0...He also mentioned problems with the BIOS update with Windows 7...at least on his motherboard.

" The BIOS (UEFI) has to be updated, but after automatic IME update Windows 7 might not work. (important for overclockers at HWBOT) (use flashback if possible - if not - you're screwed)

R0 will not work with the same BIOS that P0 was achieving best scores. R0 will not work with same settings. "

i9-9900k R0 revision OC Kitchen Full Review (worse than P0)
Piotr Orkisz
Published on Jul 24, 2019
Well I really wanted this i9-9900k R0 revision to be superior and better.
But it turns out differently.
I had 9x i9-9900k P0 and now I have 2x R0.
Hardware:
Maximus XI Apex
G.Skill Trident Z RGB 4600Mhz CL18 @3600 CL16
Seasonic 1300W Platinum Prime
Benchtable - OBT
AIO: Phoenix MLC 360mm (Vardar 120mm x 3)
NVidia GT 720

i9-9900k @5.1GHz with AVX -2
Same setting for all P0 chips - Vcore override 1.330V .
Vcore with offset about 0.07V for R0.

Yes, this video is long. Yes, it might not be funny to watch it.
But if you're planning to buy i9-9990k, especially if you're thinking about changing your P0 to R0 revision - watch it.

Conclusions for Enthusiast Overclocking (LC and air):
R0 is worse than P0 because:
It scores worse at same frequencies of CPU and RAM and same RAM timings.
Temperatures are much worse despite lower Vcore voltage demanded by the chip.
Even after delid temperature are worse than with some of P0 chips without delid.
To run 3600MHz CL16 RAM VCCIO has to be much higher than with P0:
P0 - Vccio 1.23V R0 - Vccio 1.29-1.32V

The BIOS (UEFI) has to be updated, but after automatic IME update Windows 7 might not work. (important for overclockers at HWBOT) (use flashback if possible - if not - you're screwed)

R0 will not work with the same BIOS that P0 was achieving best scores. R0 will not work with same settings.

R0 is very sensitive to LLC (Load Line Calibration) and mostly it will demand higher Vdrop with non-AVX loads, but... (!!!) it will demand lower Vdrop with AVX loads - this makes regulation and overclocking hard: you may have stable profile for AVX loads which will be all the time BSODing with non-AVX loads and vice-versa.
Vdrop observed is up to 150mV.

At stock it is OK.
Any OC and you have to be pushing Vcore almost 200mV higher.
(even if Offset is only 0.070V (70mV) it will get to 200mV.


Commentary from Luumi who had a better 9900k R0 experience, starts at 02:15:

Intel Core i9 9900KF & R0 stepping 9900K - thoughts and opinions
Luumi
Published on May 18, 2019
Intel recently released the stripped down version of the 8 core Coffee Lake 9900K to the market, the Core i9 9900KF. WIth same price tag it offers similar performance to the original model while lacking the integrated graphics.

I managed to test one R0 stepping 9900KF binned from 3 pieces and also one random R0 stepping 9900K. The 9900KF really doesn't seem anything spectacular to me, eventhough some guys around the world have managed to find really nice samples for overclocking. Both the KF aswell as the R0 stepping 9900K work just like that with correct bios update on older Z170/Z270 motherboards like the Z170M OC Formula or Maximus IX Apex.

R0 stepping as a whole seems very good and we may see even better clocking pieces amongst the R0 stepping CPUs over the coming months.

 

Those findings form back in May when the R0 steppings started showing up are likely true today. Many R0 stepping 9900K will be the left over bins that didn't meet 9900KS 'standards'. If you're spending almost $500 on a CPU, spending another $50 is worth it to get a good chip out of box.

 

Spending $500 on the 9900k should be enough, shame on Intel for trying to screw their loyal customers for even more money.

The 9900k has lost popularity, that CPU no longer deserves a premium price, Intel has had to drop the price, and so have vendors - now it's down to $471 and likely heading lower.
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/7422097525384487285

Intel needed to pull a fast one - find a new way to jack the price again to improve margins. Intel skims the best of their 9900k production to hold for a higher ransom - and the vendors can also pump up the price and generate buzz enough to stimulate sales.

As everyone has said that has reviewed the 9900ks, it's not worth the extra money for 100-200mhz more performance that shows up under the *best* circumstances as 2%-3% improvement in games that favor Intel.

Intel should be QC'ing it's production so that all the 9900k CPU's coming off the production line meet the same spec high spec for the $471.99 price.

Intel has said the 9900ks is only a brief product release, gone before the Holidays, so until then I guess everyone's stuck with crappy R0 9900ks... at least until Intel stops skimming the "best" 9990k's to fill 9900ks orders.

Does it seem right for Intel to skim the best 9900k's from production, leaving everyone buying 9900k's worse off?

Maybe the right thing to do is to not reward Intel for pulling these shenanigans, and buy AMD instead?

 

Isn't this exactly as AMD did? Almost same chips but the higher binned one more expencive?

The few KS chips Intel bin won't make the big extra margins.

 

And, nobody in the AMD world is recommending anyone buy those CPU's, we recommend buying the regular CPU - 3700x instead of the 3800x, 1700x instead of the 1800x, because the performance is not worth the cost premium.

That's the difference. Why are you Intel guys falling for this scam?

 

The scammers is the shops/sales sites.



-----------------------
See also...

AMD Ryzen 7 3800X vs. 3700X: What's the Difference?
For this minor performance increase AMD has increased the MSRP by 21%, from $330 to $400, so the biggest percentage increase, if we ignore the TDP, comes from the price. And we believe that’s all you need to hear, you’ll get 3% more performance at best, by spending 21% more of your money.

 

I think this trend of segmenting product stacks to this variety has been going on for a long time. It’s not really anything new. CPU quality varies quite a bit and for as long as I’ve been into PC hardware both Intel and AMD have been offering products with varying clockspeeds even though deep down it’s the same chip. Demanding Intel create perfect identical quality chips isn’t realistic. And it’s this very imperfection that gives consumers options at all budgets.

I think Intel and AMD have realized though that some consumers are willing to pay just a bit extra for a slightly higher quality chip. It’s the reason silicon lottery is still in business today. It’s the reason we had 1700, 1700x and 1800x. Then the 2700 and 2700x. And now we have the 3700x and 3800x. If there wasn’t a demand there wouldn’t be a product.

At the end of the day it’s a CPU being made in small quantities. It’s going to have a short production cycle before Comet Lake 10 series chips arrive in a few months. I’m more excited about Cascade Lake X chips and their hugely discounted pricing.

 

Exactly the same for graphics cards.

From what I remember, Amd is readying a chips between 3700x and 3800X. Nothing from the waffer plate will be spilled Too big loss use it as 3700X

The worst in Tech industri is still Max-Q.

 

Note: This post was moved from the " Ryzen vs i7 (Mainstream); Threadripper vs i9 (HEDT); X299 vs X399; Xeon vs Epyc" thread to here, and this thread has no Xeon in it only 9900k/ks, 9700k, 9600k and similar CPU's, I'll Report this error, but until then - Enjoy

Spoiler: Alert I received:

Your post in the thread Ryzen vs i7 (Mainstream); Threadripper vs i9 (HEDT); X299 vs X399; Xeon vs Epyc was moved to Intel Core i9-9900k 8c/16t, i7-9700K 8c/8t, i7-9600k 6c/6t 2nd Gen Coffee Lake CPU's + Z390.

Note also that discussion of the Ryzen 9 3650x not coming with a boxed fan is a current news topic, so I thought the recall on the Intel Xeon boxed cooler more appropriate in the Intel Xeon vs Ryzen thread instead of this 9900k thread - the 9900k which doesn't come with a box cooler...

Is this really a surprise? Who ever uses the Intel box cooler? Whenever I see a build with one it's the first thing I recommend to change - right after I push the "pins" in to seat the heatsink to stop the incredibly quick thermal throttling.

Intel Recalls Quad Core Xeon CPU Because of Inadequate Stock Cooler
by Anton Shilov on November 14, 2019 11:00 AM EST
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15107/intel-recalls-cpu

"Intel this week recalled one of its boxed processors because the bundled cooling system the company supplied was insufficient and the CPU may not have performed as intended. For any Intel partners with stock, this specific chip is being recalled and those who need the chip are recommended to use a tray/OEM version which does not come bundled with a cooler and thus use your own.

The processor in question is the boxed quad-core Xeon E-2274G (Coffee Lake) with a TDP of 83 W. The boxed CPU was supplied with Intel’s DHA-A heatsink (PN: E97378-003) that apparently cannot cool down the chip is all types of its use cases, which is why Intel now has to recall it. The cooling system has been used by Intel for CPUs with an 84 W TDP since at least 2013, which makes the whole recall bizarre.

Intel’s distributors are advised to return existing inventory of the boxed Xeon E-2274G product and get a tray version instead. It is unclear whether Intel intends to release a new boxed version of its Xeon E-2274G processor with a new cooler, but for now the company recommends to use tray version of the chip with a proper third-party cooling device."

 

Linus gets 5.1ghz on the 9900KS on a water cooling behemoth. Love to see the price on that baby, what a build.

Intel's PRE-OVERCLOCKED CPU... Core i9 9900KS
Linus Tech Tips
Published on Nov 18, 2019
When Digital Storm offered to send a fully custom, decked out Aventum X with Intel’s new Core i9 9900KS CPU, how could I say no?