Intel says "ULV: the new normal"

ArsTechnia

 

I guess these are going to replace the netbook categories...

That is, if manufacturers will be able to bring the prices down to under $500. Then I'm sold

Mr. Mysterious

 

I'm all for ULV.

We're in an energy crisis anyhow. Electricity will be the new gasoline if we don't start giving up our coal for more solar and wind based solutions.

 

I find this interesting it means that intel is valuing more battery than processing power, it also means more competition due to the threshold of processing power that we have supposedly hit with that major direction change

 

This makes a lot of sense. 98% of notebook users probably never need the "full" power of their processors, so it doesn't matter if the CPU is slightly less powerful. But, a significantly higher percentage of notebook users are using their laptops in lecture halls, on airplanes, in meetings, etc, and would benefit from lower power consumption, lower heat output, and therefore lighter batteries and cooling systems.

 

Laptops like the Asus UL20FT are already at the $500 mark.

 

Vostro V13 was 349 brand new.

If thin notebooks with ULV i5/i7 were cheaper, they would sell alot more.

And a far cry from the 2920XM @ 55 TDP.

 

ULV are great. i would only buy ulv (even for desktops) if possible. their performance is normally still great for mostly anything, but the possibility to be easily passive cooled in desktops, and very simply active or passive cooled in a laptop makes it very interesting.

 

A year ago an ULV was about 20% more expensive than a netbook and even the SU7300 was more than enough for the normal user.
Currently you can get a 11" Arrandale ULV for about 400€, which is very cheap...if Intel can push this down to 300€, netbooks are gone...

 

what would happen to the remaining 2%? would we be forced to invest into desktops if we need extra power?

 

Nah, I think they'll still make the 35W processors, they just won't be as common. Also, I think the reason they're doing this is because their new tri-gate transistors operate best at low voltages so they can bring the TDP down and still improve performance relative to Sandy Bridge.

What makes me curious is that they claim they want to do that and increase the iGPU performance by a factor of 7 (presumably with Haswell). It doesn't seem possible to me unless they've got some major architectural trickery up their sleeve.

 

Well the "mainstream" would be ULV but I'm sure Intel would still have high end chips for enthusaists/power users.

 

LOL.
Your comments made me chuckle when I thought about how much water and energy was used to fabricate those processors to feed consumerism.
That is also why I am not upgrading unless my laptop goes kaput on me.
And it gets better, energy is used to power facebook, twitter and farm-ville about breakfast, lunch, dinner, poking & wall scribbling rather than intellectual exchanges.
Yeah leave the energy crisis to the scientists, it is not our problem right?
They always had a solution.. somehow...
I bet if Adobe bothers to optimize their flash codebase, the energy savings in 1 year could be substantial!

 

Unless you are running SLI 485M or 6970M you dont need a faster CPU than sandy bridge.

With a 22nm tri-gate process you are going to have similar performance to now in that power envelope.

Their current GPU design is pretty basic, with 22nm and tri-gate transistors, they should be able to pack more shaders in easily even with a tighter thermal envelope.

 

Cut power draw on notebook CPU so the mainstream shifts towards the low end and the size of the market segment where netbooks and tablets can cannibalize notebook sales becomes smaller.

The same holds back the notebook top end performance, re-establishing the need, for users who require more CPU power, to buy a desktop too.

 

So this is the end for high-end laptop systems? I'm not convinced...I've seen and experienced many "crises" of the high-end systems, but it's still a very profitable business and will continue to endure until there is a revolutionary change.

Mr. Mysterious

 

No it's not the end of high end systems. In the past we first got the main chip than 6 months later the ULV variants showed up and by the time they got into laptops, the new generation from Intel was almost ready.

Now I predict the ULV versions will come out first and high power versions a little later in lower volumes.

 

To be honest I would love to see more fanless systems on the market, even if it meant sacrificing some performance, and if these 10 watt ULV processors could achieve that, then I think that's great.

Ha! I would not be surprised.

 

Quad Core at 30W and Dual core at 15-20W at 2GHZ+ speed would be awesome
Plus Turbo can be used to take it to 3ghz+.

I doubt they will be able to do it with ivy bridge. May be they are tweaking haswell for the same. I will probably delay my purchase till 14nm shrink which should hopefully have everything right.

 

Why do you doubt it?

Mr. Mysterious

 

Since the change in focus is recent I doubt they will do a massive redesign at this point. IB Cpu's have taped out like Q4 2010. They could make some changes to pull in numbers slightly but this require architectural change as well.

Since Haswell is their next tock and they should have a mature 22nm process by then it would be practical to expect a major change in TDP with it. Last time we saw such a drastic change in desktop cpu was wit conroe which launched 65w dual core cpu compared with 95w prescott. IMO this is a bigger change.

 

Someone corrects me if I'm wrong, but isn't most ULV CPUs soldered?
That means less and less possibilities to upgrade

 

This is not much of problem for the normal user:
1. CPU upgrades are not easy, you have to disassemble the whole notebook for it, a normal user can't do this...
2. CPU upgrades in notebooks are very expensive...most of the time its not really worth spending 300€ for a new CPU
3. The CPU power is more than enough for the normal user...

 

1- All dependence on the laptop. For instance, most Acer and Dell laptops can be upgraded in about 5 minutes.
2- Top of the range CPU might cost 300 euro, but mid range cost much less. For instance one can upgrade from a Celeron to a Core 2 Duo for less then £20.
3- I agree.

 

But they were talking about ULV's, all of which are soldiered.

 

There are the rare ULV processors that are BGA soldered onto a PGA chip so some you can upgrade (SU9400), but generally ULV processors are BGA soldered to the motherboard. That means the only way to upgrade is to replace the entire motherboard, and that is why many of those thin notebooks are $$$, and Apple laptops too (Apple solders all processors to the logic board).

 

The reason they tend to be soldered is to make the machine thinner, with no socket you save a few MM.

This is not needed for larger machines. And I doubt they want to build many different motherboards for the same machine.

So they will just be the same but targeted for lower power consumption.

 

Right. You can make a ULV soldered or socketed. Just because it's ULV doesn't mean it has to be soldered.

 

If you check my previous post you would see that I was saying that if Intel makes mostly ULV CPUs it would be difficult to pick up a laptop on a budget and upgrade it in the future instead of buying a new one

Exactly my point

Yes it can be done, but it is likely that most if not all of them will be soldered. The market has been shifting towards thin and ultra-thin laptops. Soldering the CPU directly into the motherboard is the best way to make laptops thinner.

 

Yes but you will notice that ULV machines come with 1 or 2 CPU options because they have to pre make as many as they think they are going to sell.

With mid range laptops you have everything from the lowest dual core up to the second highest quad.

They don't want to make 10 different motherboards for one machine.

 

Right, but the point is that they are soldered specifically for thinner machines, but they can still make it a socket for machines that are more performance and will be thicker for any number of other reasons. For now ULV is made primarily for thinner and smaller laptops. If all laptops go "ULV", whatever you want that to mean, doesn't mean all laptops will get thinner. It just means CPU's use less power for similar performance.

 

Some More:

Anandtech

 

Looks like they will:

Digitimes:

 

I think the netbook-ish size is here to stay. Maybe not the 9" screens and definitely not the original 7" screens, but 10-12" screen size with super low cost is here to stay.

Regarding the Atom processor (ubiquitous when thinking about netbooks) Intel is not standing still. While higher performance CPUs drop to 10-15W for ULV versions, the Atom (which started around 8-10W) will be heading down towards 3W (not counting the Atoms intended for devices like smartphones). Performance may also creep up a hair, especially graphics. Thus, there will probably still be netbooks with 10" screens in the $300 range for the next few years, but likely with even lower weight (my prediction is 2.5 pounds average versus current 3 pounds) with slightly more battery life. Just more evolution of the netbook species.

 

So, no one else saw this coming? Scalability of the current design is getting to the edge of what can be accomplished with the silicon. Now take that design and designate it too lower speeds of ULV and higher scalability returns. Don't ever think Intel is just doing you a favor without having their own hidden agenda............

 

Yup. And Treebeard and his cheerful bunch will rise from the earth and make a mess in Washington D.C. unless we stop farting and using hot water, so we have to get green already.

 

I hope you are right but I am skeptical they will be able to pull it down that much with just a die shrink. May be Haswell was fundamentally designed with that in mind. if they can design a CPU with same level of performance as i5-2520M @ 15W, AMD will be in serious trouble.

 

It's not just a die shrink.

22nm is a process step PLUS tri-gate transistors which acts like a shrink.

So the move to 22nm is like two shrinks in one. The lower the voltage the more savings the tri-gate get you.

Plug that in to a laptop equation and you are better off lowering performance a bit because you start racking up massive power savings.

 

I'm all for the shift to ULV processors to the mainstream. 'Typical' computer applications (Internet, office productivity) don't even stress modern processors and run perfectly fine on older CPUs like the Core 2 Duo. ULV processors based on the latest Intel Core i-series processors are faster than a Core 2 Duo and perfectly adequate, all while consuming less power.

ULV processors will allow thinner and lighter computers that produce less heat and provide more battery life. No brainer for most folks.

 

Aww chaz... no love for us gamers?

 

It won't take long for people to run into the same situation with battery life, where they'll have more run time on their machines than they'l typically need...and while it'll always be possible to finds new ways to add stress to a CPU it's not so easy adding onto a 24 hour day.

 

Not there yet though, and who says you wont want a few days for a trip away?

 

Well, unless we come up with mini fusion cell batteries, I can't imagine being able to run the latest performance tech more than 8-12 hours tops. I think having a usable 10 hours is most reasonable. By usable, I mean actually surfing, crunching a few numbers, watching a video, etc, not sitting idle with the screen at minimum and no wifi. I mean I'd rather not sacrifice power to the point that we can get 48 hours of battery life. Use your cell phone for that.

Heck at this point I wouldn't doubt if manufacturers start making docks for your cell phone to use a keyboard, mouse, and monitor. I mean most cell phones are feature-rich and can handle your basic "netbook" needs as it is.

 

You can get docks.

One company even makes a phone dock with a keyboard, battery and screen that looks like a notebook which you plug the phone into.

 

well, people would like to have their laptop in standby and usable all the time without having to plug in all the time. like they (where used to) are used to with phones and other devices (watches, how often do you change their battery?).

best would be to never have to manually charge at all.

so we still have a lot we can optimize.

 

You mean like that inductive charging that never seems to work? lol. It would be nice to just throw your cell phone and laptop on an inductive charging pad and not have to worry about plugging in.