Justifying "non-consumer grade" laptops....

At the place where I am at, the culture is to get $700-$1000 laptops.
The usual Acer/Asus/HP crap ( )

I am from the nice machines camp --- I have a strong preference for business grade machines.

So the devils advocate in me got thinking --- is the cost of business grade machines justified? If the laptop is being used in several places each day, then I can understand a good build quality. But otherwise, I can get a $1000 laptop and 2 monitors for $200 each, non-glossy with 1920x1080 resolution. Assuming a lifespan of the laptop as being 2 years on average; this still comes out cheaper than a business grade 17 or 15 inch laptop (I'll assume a business grade machine lasts 3 years).

Thoughts?

 

Hehehe , i can't.
I bought a Clevo 5 years ago because they were the cheaper of expensive 17" at time. 1600 Euros but i needed the 17" so i had no choice.
Now last year i bought a Pavillion DV7 with 17" for less than half the price.

If you need all juice, or a great screen then you can justify it. Otherwise no except for vanity .

 

If the life of your laptop is only 2-3 years you need to look a different hardware. Now tis could very well be true of a gaming laptop as you usually expect it to run newer games.

With todays hardware considering even todays and future office type applications the hardware should easily last 4-6 years. That is unless there is some major trend in software that suddenly becomes system resource intensive.

Now business grade usually means a tank build. usually heavier build than needed so that the components will both last longer and are less likely to fail. Sometimes this too makes for a slightly under performing machine so it is best to over spec the machine you want.

There are some consumer grade machines that will run as long and are about as tough as a business grade machine but you have to weed through them. It is best not to go with a brand new model but one that has been out and proven but a modernized revision of such. Research the lineups well and you should end up with a reliable nice performing piece off hardware..........

 

Support is usually alot better than consumer grade notebooks. And you are paying for the better build quality (I have a Vostro 1500 and is a little better built that the identical twin Inspiron 1520). It's worth the extra money, and I absolutely love my Vostro 1500

 

Lifespan of a laptop is 2 years? I had mine for 6 before an upgrade and I plan on having this one for just as long.

 

I was just saying that with a $800 laptop, you can just replace the laptop in 2 years


I am from the camp where I get a business machine and expect it to last 5 years

 

I mean I've had my Vostro 1500 for over 3 years now, original battery died, hard drive was starting to fail but other than that no problems.

The average cheapo notebook has a life of 2-3 years if that, usually when a motherboard goes dead in a 400-500 dollar notebook, can't justify 200+ dollar motherboard replacement when you can put that towards a new notebook.

Buy a business model, you get more when you pay more money. You are paying for quality.

 

Vostros are not too expensive, I was talking about the Dell Precisions, or HP Elitebooks which are >$2000.

Vostros unfortunately do not have high res screens.

 

Well I'm just giving an example as the Vostro replaced the Latitude as entry level business tier notebooks. And they can get pretty pricey with all the bells and whistles.

 

As a college student with no income except from what I make from surveys, I wish...

And also I was stuck with a Pentium 4 powered Dell Inspiron 9100 up until 2009, so all in all your first post is wrong. I find plenty of cheap machines nice. And also who says a "business class" machine has to be expensive? The Lenovo Thinkpad Edge can be had for around $500.

 

Step1: Define Non-Consumer Grade vs Consumer Grade
? Because the label says business grade?
? Because you paid more so it automatically become better?
Step2: Quantify the difference
? Able to withstand throwing chairs?
? Able to impress clients simply by flashing the branding and logo?

Conclusion: It is all part of the branding scheme.

 

The support is ALOT better. I read once that a Vostro 1500 user had a key pop out, he called up Dell and they overnighted the part to him. The only company I know that provides better service on consumer level is Apple.

 

Thank you for posting some financial sanity. $800 simply to upgrade to a newer model is not easy to come by for many people, especially nowadays. Triple digit prices for a machine with a few hours of battery life and average internal equipment weighing 8 pounds is crazy.

I laugh my a$$ off at any marketers who think this is justified by touting the small margin (if any) of build quality and aiming the product line at people who wouldn't feel too burdened by the price. Build quality (and again, if any) and ill perceived bragging rights are the only things these big money laptops have on any so called consumer grade models.

Exactly. The performance and features in a $1600 HP Elitebook can be had in a $800-$1100 Sony, Dell, Acer, etc. For build quality, are there any manufacturers out there not using plastics as part of the chassis? What is going on in the board room that a notebook must withstand great unseen forces?

 

Just to be clear, I gave the 2 year lifespan not for upgrading; but for the case where the consumer grade laptop fails and needs to be replaced. This was a conservative estimate, ie consumer grade laptops would probably last longer, but the 2 year figure was just to say even if it fails in 2 years, these laptops still come out ahead

 

1. Build quality (hinges dont get loose, rugged power connectors, backlit keyboards, tough lids so laptop doesnt get damaged if put in backpack with other things etc).
2. Better screens, matte, higher res for work.
3. 3 year warranty standard; warranty support is much better. I have had three cases for business warranty support, two for dell, one for lenovo. The CSRs are knowleageable, dont make you run through hoops and make a fast resolution.
4. Pro version of windows (it has SRP which should be the first line of defense against malware IMHO).

 

I think it is dumb to spend twice as much on a laptop to last you twice as long. Why not buy two cheaper laptops in that same time frame? And I don't see how they can possibly last longer from a hardware point of view.

Uh, I have had the same exact type of service from Dell and all the laptops I bought from them were consumer-class. All the parts I ever asked for were delivered next-day.

 

Because when the 2 cheapo notebooks break you are left with 2 broken pos notebooks, but if you spend more money on a nice laptop you are left with a higher quality notebook that isn't a piece o'junk. And contrary to the fact, lower cost machines tend to have more problems, you can't make stuff faster, and cheaper and achieve high quality, sorry bud.

And I wouldn't know about consumer models, I have not purchased a consumer grade Dell notebook personally and had any problems with it.

 

That's one point of view, and the one typically taken by the majority of manufactures. It's certainly more lucrative for them to sell you a new machines every two years than every four, five, or six. And it's certainly why the majority of machines are designed just with that idea in mind.

You were lucky. As support is unequivocally better (for obvious reasons) for business line machines.

Without a doubt the single most important reason for choosing a business grade machine. The second being the security measure which are typically added to their construction.

Provided they are handled more delicately, this is true.

 

So are you really telling me that two cheap laptops in a row are going to break out of warranty to the point that it is not economical to fix them before the same misfortune befalls a business grade laptop? How can this be so? They use pretty much equivalent functional components, just the business class product has, to varying degrees, a more rugged chassis, possibly better standard features and available options, and a more aggressive warranty and support. You also fail to realize regardless of the functional lifetime of the actual hardware, the usable lifetime does not increase because it is a business class laptop. It is going to be an old pile of crap in 4-6 years regardless of it being business class or consumer grade.

Then maybe don't talk about how the support is "ALOT" better on business class laptops by citing some phony example, ok?

Yes, it is. I and many others would rather spend less money more often than be left with an outdated hulk.

I bet. But that doesn't mean support is substandard or lacking in any way for consumer products. It is just that tsunami kid was acting like it was a big deal that Dell overnighted parts for a business class product, when in fact they do the same for consumer products as well.

Says you and your HP Pavilion.

 

HP, Lenovo and Dell business support is MUCH better than Apple. All 3 have better warranty policies available ( up to 5 year onsite/ 3 year accidental protection ) and all will next day ship you parts if you can convince the rep your not an idiot and know how to use a screwdriver. even overnight laptop replacement happens in some cases.

yep, Dell and Hp have been good for shipping me parts overnight for consumer units as well. even an out of warranty DV3000

 

Trust me, for unofficially repairing computers for 10+ years, and officially for 2+ and being an ASP, I see too many computers which have huge hardware issues out of warranty, whether it be consumer damage or bad motherboard OOW, you are still boned.

Take the example of an Emachines D627 and any netbook. Netbook is 10", Atom 160 GB HDD 1 GB HDD for 299. How can you sell a full sized laptop for the same price as a netbook? You cut corners on quality. You are not getting faster, lower price and getting quality all in 1 package, sorry.

Have you ever called Dell consumer lines vs Dell business? It's a whole crapload different.

Dell consumer will probably ask you to ship the laptop to Dell or check it in an ASP and order parts and they install it. Perhaps when you called they allowed you to order the part and have it shipped. Normally that is NOT the case.

 

I like delicate technological things. It gives this stuff a sense of vulnerability which is extremely lacking among other areas of the tech world.


Hahahaha yeah I know emachines have like 5000 times the rate of failure over thinkpads. whatever.

 

Regardless of it's level of manufacture/construction, computers are inherently unreliable items and prone to failure. That's just the nature of the beast. The best you can do is have a system of good support/repair etc.

That isn't surprising, is it?

 

I deal with HP elitebook warranties all the time, any time I need self repair parts, they always ship it UPS overnight to any place I put within the Case Support Manager slips. I dont see that level of support with any consumer laptops. They have a list of parts that are classed "self repair", usually the keyboard, wifi and LAN card, hard drive, memory and some other parts.

And for prices on being higher for business class vs comsumer class, of couse the business class is higher. The company sent more money into building a tougher laptop and with better support, all of that cost more money to. But I everytime I buy a HP elitebook for someone I search ebay. Their is a lot of elitebooks with 2-2.5 years left on the warranty for the same price of any consumer laptop. HP doesn't know how much you payed for it, it's still a elitebook according to their records. Just input the s/n and p/n codes under the laptop and type away what you need.

I can ship a elitebook off to HP on a Monday and be back to be on a Wed. or Thur. 90% of the time. Yet with my Asus g73jh its been with Asus going on 3 weeks now for a simple GPU replacement. I rather sell that one and get a refurbished 8740w with the 5870m firepro version, I will send the extra money on a extended warranty.

 

Business computers don't necessarily have to be as expensive as you suggest--I got my Thinkpad for $1200 after all taxes, and at the time I bought it, an equivalently-specced consumer-grade machine (with no switchable graphics, mind you) would have been around $1100, give or take.

For me, the extra $100 or so was definitely worth the many benefits that a business grade laptop brought with it: an amazing TrackPoint, a matte screen, a fantastic keyboard, durability found in few consumer machines, and simple/discreet aesthetics.

 

Actually, Emachines aren't bad for the money. The nice thing about Acer/Gateway/Emachines is parts are uber cheap. The major problem I have with the company is they discontinue major components way too fast aka logic boards. And they have a nasty habit of failing very quickly.

We had a Gateway 8 months into the warranty had a bad motherboard. We shipped it off to Gateway for warranty repair. They shipped it back unrepaired, saying they could not source the part and they would give the customer a new laptop. Now I'd be grateful for a new laptop but would I trust the company?

We also had an ginormous Acer with a bad video card, can't remember exactly but it was OOW. We ship it off to Acer as they agreed for 150 OOW repair. Shipped it back unrepaired, said they couldn't get their hands on a 14 month old part. I find that ridiculous.

Yet time and time again, lower price almost always correlates with lower quality. In fact we sell a Sony for 550 dollars. It's actually a great deal, but NO way in hell I would ever consider a Sony. Sony quality is not bad but ASP wise they are HELL to deal with. And actually right now, no ASP can order Sony parts. Their ordering system is messed up and ALL warranty Sony must be shipped to Sony for warranty repair. Yet again another reason to avoid Sony.

 

Well in America, there is a lemon law, if the same problem is repaired/replaced 3 times, the 4th is a replacement. I don't know the consumer protection laws over where you live. And ANY decent manufacturer will have a 90 day warranty on parts, usually 30 days on labor minus shipping on your end.

And with my pleasant experiences with a business class notebook, I wouldn't hesitate to spend 900-1200 for another one. Now for my next notebook I want a no frills gaming notebook but I wouldn't mind a business tier notebook.

 

It isn't cut-and-dry like he stated it. Applicable laws vary by state and it is only enforceable by civil suit. Basically what it boils down in to in practice is that if your laptop is having lots and lots of problems and being serviced under warranty, if you whine and complain to the company and they feel generous they can refund your money or give you a comparable or better laptop. If you plead the same case in another country, who knows, you might have the same outcome.

 

I'm just stating you are entitled to it. Now whether you want to go through that ordeal again, that's up to you but it IS your right.

Of course it is. As a consumer it's your responsibility to know your own laws and the rights that are entitled to you. Whining to a manufacturer won't really solve much besides being hanged up on, being put on hold or just being treated rudely. However if you send an email documenting your grief with said notebook they might review your case, and you would have to relinquish all rights to your defective notebook.

Oh and also, MSI hardly has any ASP, are very proprietary meaning if your unit has issues, I salute you because it is grief galore.

 

Depends on Model than Branding.
Last time I check they still uses the same connectors maybe the casing looks different but the internal connectors are the same.
Industrial standard

Again depends on model there are "Business Models" with low resolution screen

Depends on the tech you get.

Bull. Software policy doesn't help with stupid users.
You can reduce the damage but you can do the same with Home Editions by limiting the admin acc.
Only thing Professional Edition offers better is enterprise integration.

A lot of people like to say XXX is better without actually doing any real comparison. Just basing it off their purportedly common sense and gut feeling.
It is time to bring out proper proof for everything you say.

 

Actually, your wrong that a civil suit is the only way to enforce warranty and defective product issues in the US. Most states have very powerful consumer affairs divisions. A complaint filed there will normally get you what you want. At the least, the company is ordered to mediation and it would normaly just give you what you want (within reason) instead of sending a representative to an adminsitrative proceeding.

Bronsky

 

Really depends which models we're talking about.

 

My 2 cents, you gotta pay to play.

 

A lot of the discussion is centering around warranty support.

IF warranty support were equal on both kinds; would then consumer class come out way ahead?


Coming back to the warranty issue. If there is a company, or a university, would it make sense for it to completely switch to consumer grade laptops; and whenever they break just replace them; avoiding the hassle of dealing with inferior warranty support?

 

That's hard to say. Part of the issue is that the price of the (enhanced) warranty support is already part of non-consumer notebooks. Many new "business-class" notebooks come with standard 3 year warranties, as compared to the 1 year warranties that are more common in consumer notebooks. If consumer notebooks somehow suddenly got better warranty support for no cost increase, then certainly, the consumer-class would come out ahead, but I have a few doubts about that sort of thing happening.

As for replacement as opposed to repair, you have to remember that a lot of the time, (larger) corporations and universities can get a substantial discount from companies like Dell and HP both on new units and on service/warranty. Also, oftentimes features that are required for universities or companies do not exist on consumer notebooks (docking ports, DisplayPort, legacy VGA outputs). As well, the costs of using consumer equipment and then replacing them each time they break will likely be higher than using business-class and repairing them. Remember that many universities and businesses actually continue to use legacy equipment and do not upgrade often (A lot of them still use Windows XP and 95!), so their equipment is intended to be used or working for well over 5-10 years.

Where the argument (against) business-class machines makes more sense is on the individual level, where economies of scale don't apply nearly as much, and people upgrade or advance much more often/quickly.

 

Hmmm, I was thinking the other way round; that a machine failing and dealing with substandard customer service would be a much bigger hit for a consumer, and hence it might make more sense to go for business support.
An enterprise would take a lesser hit due to averaging out...

 

Not to knock consumers, but for many consumers, all they usually get is frustrated or annoyed. For a business or a university, any delays in service or repair tends to result directly in lost work, which means lost revenue. Businesses tend to be a little sensitive about that sort of thing.

Consider the difference between, for example, your average consumer that uses their computer for e-mail, surfing the web, and games. How much would they lose if they had to be without their computer for, say, a week. Now consider your local bank branch. How much would they lose if they had to be without their computers for, say, that same week.

 

No he's not wrong, but his conclusion is a bit of wishful thinking since replacements and refunds are the last thing any manufacturer wants to do.

As for the power of the states, it's one thing to have the power, it's something totally different to have it enforced. Have you ever gone through this procedure? It could take months and many hours of your valuable time to see it through to resolution. Far from what most people want to spend their time doing. People who have a problem just want it fixed. They don't want to go through a virtual court case just to get what they've already paid for.

All other things aside, the best solution is to know the reputation of the company you buy from.

Those days are mostly gone (at least with the major manufacturers) but don't ever imply that anyone not complain. Remember, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. After all, you did suggest to document your situation. It's this word of mouth that helps others make better buying decisions.

 

Be careful where this thread is going; if it turns into any more of a bicker-fest then I will close it.

 

An average consumer can complain & moan, putting off calling cust service while a business is (theoretically) loosing money by not getting a replacement or repair right away. I've had my share of crappy college CSR jobs, you'd be surprised how long people go without their service or product simply by procrastination.

For the vast majority of people, I think customer service is certainly behind features & initial price because many people rarely if ever use it. I've never had to call anyone about my Dell, nor my Vaio from 2003. The Sony had its cooling fan die about a year ago but I ordered a replacement from an online parts retailer and did the swap myself. I know some people just have bad luck or really do have faulty equipment but who buys a Lexus over a Nissan simply for a free car wash on Saturday mornings with some donuts and coffee?

Also customer service for much besides an RMA or maybe a replacement part is seriously devalued with forums like this and other sources on the internet.

I decide what I want in a laptop and then find a brand & model that fits for a price that I think is reasonable. My Dell was $1100 1.5 years ago, I hope soon to also buy a smaller Acer for ~$1k (with an non-OEM i5, backlit keyboard and hdd) to replace it. This is not due to any failures or unreliability, I just find a 13" 4lb notebook more portable than a 16.4" 7lb model. Before settling on the Acer, I did have the low end cheapo prejudice against the brand but after reading reviews and an NBR thread of over 730 pages of happy owners, I quickly lost that mentality.

For me to buy a $2300 Dell Precision would just be stupid. Then again, some people like security, insurance and the peace of mind that comes with all that. This topic is a huge case of 'to each their own' with too many generalizations but IMHO warranty and cust support (even the top rated companies have their lousy reps and irate customers) are not worth the extra cash. I don't pay extra for warranties and most companies, even the high end ones, have a standard 1 year anyway. The Elitebook is 3 which is nice but again, how much does the individual believe in insurance?

 

Another random observation but aside from Clevos(and maybe a handful of other notebooks), I do believe Business laptops are the only laptops that carry CAD/Professional GPUs. Now, whether you wanna argue the usefulness of said GPUs over their consumer counterparts is another story, but felt like pointing that out.

 

You buy a professional gpu because you need it, not because it is "business".
It just happens that some "business" laptops have it.
It is a justified cost but the question in mind is comparing laptops with similar specs one coming with a "business" vs a "consumer" label.
If everyone was specs oriented no discussion would be needed in the first place.

 

Here's a few reasons I prefer to buy "business" class notebooks. These are "general" observations -- not intended to be accurate in every circumstance.

-Build quality. Good business notebooks have a metal internal frame which greatly strengthens the notebook. They also have better quality hinges and more durable exteriors.

-Design. I like the non-nonsense/industrial/clean looks of business machines. I especially like not having glossy plastic.

-Matte/anti-glare screens. Most consumer notebooks come with glossy screens; if you want a matte screen your choices are much more limited.

-Better warranty/support. I had a small problem with the keyboard on my 8740w. Called HP, 8 minutes later I have a new keyboard being overnighted to me via FedEx Next Day Air. That's my definition of service.

Naturally business class notebooks tend to be priced higher than mainsteam notebooks. How you "justify" that depends on your preferences. I have no trouble justifying the price.

Some other things to consider -- these aren't reasons I buy business-class notebooks, but businesses/IT departments may buy them because of . . .
-Docking station solutions. Standard consumer notebooks do not have docking station ports anymore. Where I work, it is a common practice to give employees one notebook and a docking station/external monitor setup so it can be like a desktop at the office.

-Serviceability. I was touring a large business this past summer; their IT department used all ThinkPads. One of the reasons they liked them was because it was so easy to replace/change parts with minimal hassle. It saves time and effort.

-Remote management. Technologies like Intel's vPro can greatly aid IT departments.

-Energy Star requirements. This is extremely important to many businesses.

 

Maybe I've never had a sufficiently flimsy notebook, but I don't understand the allure of this. Why does a notebook need to be strengthened? I can't think of a scenario in which they'd break or bend except when you drop them, but dropping tends to damage more than the frame so you will have problems no matter what.

These I agree with. The difference between consumer and business warranty treatment is day and night (and the warranties cost the same!).

 

"Business" is a branding that carries certain factors with it... Professional GPUs being one of them; so that IS something to take into account even though not all of them have it. So yes, it "just so happens" that they carry it, but it's a factor like another to buy one if you need a Professional GPU.

That's like saying "Gaming" branded notebooks are nothing special and just "happen" to have high end GPUs. High end GPUs characterize "Gaming" branded laptops just as Professional GPUs are one of the characteristics(not necessarily the defining one as we've proven that certain Clevos have them) that characterize Business laptops.

 

The allure of a solid internal frame for me is the solid/sturdy feeling of the notebook.

Also, there are practical applications for stronger internal frames. Bending is not good for circuit boards; the stronger the internal frame, the less the motherboard and other circuit boards can bend. If you use your notebook on an uneven surface or put it in a backpack with lots of different-sized objects, the stronger frame will help the durability factor of the notebook.

 

Yet again, when you pay for a business tiered notebook, it isn't just one or two things, it's the culmination of everything. Sturdier frame, better build quality, better support.

And as a wise man quoted, you get what you pay for..

 

As it would most casual consumers. But this is a business class notebook.

Not so much "like", rather, need it.

It's more than that. It's goes to the specialization associated with a business (special needs) application. That's a bit different than the superficial features discussed between consumer notebooks.

Again, the special (heavy duty) use of a business laptop may well be worth the additional cost of insurance. However, where a consumer grade laptop for personal use is concerned, I couldn't agree with you more.

 

My first laptop was a NEC business class model. That was about 12 years ago I think. The retail price was like $2500. Windows 98, AMD K2-6 mobile 266 MHz? I don't quite remember now and 4GB HDD. That was a nice laptop, but hardware became obsolete rather quickly around that time. Since then I decided not to buy an expensive laptop. None of my old consumer class laptops (Toshiba, Dell) never broke on me though.

However, business class laptop look indeed nice. I kind of like Sony Z series. It's expensive like $2500 w/upgrade? I guess the Z series is not a business class laptop.

Anyway, $2500. I assume it'll last for 3 years hardware wise. 3 years = 1095 days. $2500 divided by 1095 = $2.28 /day. So, that doesn't sound too bad I guess. Maybe I can convince my better half. Well, I'm happy with my Asus.

 

You should also keep in mind that computer have made enormous gains in computing power since then. So your current paradigm for computing useful life is likely no longer applicable. Even mid-level computers have capacities far greater than their user will ever need.

Note: Remember calculators from 10+ year ago?