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Alternatively titled: 'Beginner's guide to liquid metals' OR 'Do liquid metals really damage copper? Yes, they do'
There's a lot of uncertainty out there about using liquid metal (LM) as a thermal paste: what is it, how do you use it, and can it cause lasting damage or corrosion? The temperature benefits of liquid metals are undeniable, but chances are you've had questions about their durability and safety over the long term.
Needless to say, some basic googling digs up countless differing opinions (1) (2) (3) about this topic, which means getting clear answers can be difficult.
The point of this thread is not to discuss the effectiveness of liquid metals (very effective), nor whether they pose any risks (they do), but rather to explain why the applications of liquid metals yield the results that they do.
Hopefully, this information is insightful and helps you decide whether liquid metals are right for you.™
What is Liquid Metal made out of?
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The principal component of liquid metal is Gallium, a soft metal that melts at slightly higher than room temperature (29C). It's nontoxic, unlike mercury. When combined with Indium and other metals, the melting/freezing point of the finished gallium alloy drops to nearly -19C. This means that at normal temperatures, liquid metal remains liquid. (And it shouldn't evaporate significantly, since the boiling point is 1300C[1])
To be more accurate, the liquid alloy is called "galinstan" - and the exact ratio of gallium, indium, tin, and other metals is proprietary.
When you buy liquid metal, whether it's coollaboratory liquid ultra (CLU), thermal grizzly conductonaut, or just straight up galinstan - you don't know exactly what's inside. (And there is reason to believe that the formulations are different since CLU and conductonaut have different viscosities)
But regardless, any liquid metal brand works well as a thermal interface material/thermal compound (TIM) because the stuff is temperature stable and has a high thermal conductivity of 16.5 W/(mK)[1] {versus solder at 32-94 W/(mK), and corning TIM at 0.5-3 W/(mK)}. [2]
Unfortunately, the problem with LM is that it's electrically conductive. Combined with its very unique consistency, this makes LM a potentially difficult material to work with. And - as we will see - LM is very reactive to aluminum, and erodes copper and nickel to a lesser degree. Be careful with both how and where you apply it.
Comparing Liquid Metal versus Thermal Paste
Conventional thermal paste
Liquid metal
- Usually not electrically conductive (don't need to worry about causing short circuits)
- Worse at transferring heat
- Claimed 0.5-6.0 W/(mK) thermal conductivity (more is generally better)[2]
- May degrade over time
- Example [link] of dow-corning's TC-5022 performance over 20,000 on-off cycles. Other pastes vary.
- Doesn't chemically damage heatsink surfaces
- Easy to apply
You are already probably familiar with the consistency of thermal paste, it can vary from gooey (most thermal pastes) to dough-like and hard to spread (IC diamond).
- Electrically conductive (will cause short circuits)
- Better at transferring heat
- Claimed 16.5 W/(mK) thermal conductivity (more is generally better)
- Damages heatsink surfaces
- Causes degraded performance over time
- More difficult to apply
- Must be brushed onto surfaces (or risk drops running off and causing shorts)
- Must apply thin layer (or risk drops running off and causing shorts)
- Must insulate contact area (or risk drops running off and causing shorts)
What's more interesting is the consistency of liquid metal: it is a liquid with high surface tension that can also be 'brushed' into a thin film.
Unlike conventional thermal pastes, liquid metal must always be spread manually onto the contact surface.
Also unlike conventional thermal pastes, liquid metal is not compatible with aluminum. Never use liquid metal on surfaces that will contact aluminum.
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(Yes, it really squirts out of the tube like this)
Where can Liquid Metal be used?
Liquid metals can be used on desktop CPUs (between the die and IHS, or between the IHS and heatsink), on desktop GPUs (between the die and heatsink), or in laptop CPUs (between the die and heatsink) and laptop GPUs (between the die and heatsink). Note: the heatsink in these cases must always be copper, never let liquid metal contact aluminum.
First, some background information:
Liquid metal has most often been used for " delidding" intel desktop CPUs.
To understand what delidding means, take a look at this not-to-scale diagram of a typical desktop CPU that's been sliced in half. (We'll compare this to laptops in a second)
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Heat from the CPU has to travel from the silicon die (grey in diagram above) through a thermal interface material (TIM), through a heatspreader (IHS), through another TIM, and finally to the heatsink. That's a lot of interfacing so we want to minimize thermal resistance as much as possible.
Unfortunately, intel has stopped using solder (a metal alloy) between the die and heatspreader (IHS) since the Haswell generation, instead preferring thermal garbage™ (to save on manufacturing costs. There was some noise about how toothpaste is safer since solder can cause die cracks due to differing thermal expansion, but that is nonsense considering how AMD and intel both have used solder for decades).
The process of delidding refers to physically removing the IHS, scraping out the toothpaste, and reapplying a better material such as liquid metal. Then the IHS goes back on like normal. Result? Way better temperatures and more thermal overclocking headroom.
When desktop CPUs are delidded, liquid metal is most often applied between the silicon and the nickel-plated copper heatspreader.
On laptops there is usually no reason to delid a CPU since mobile chips do not have heatspreaders. (There are exceptions: some laptops use socketed desktop CPUs)
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The heatsink directly contacts the die through a thermal interface material. Often, laptop heatsinks are finished with worse quality than desktop CPU heatsinks and since there is no heatspreader the thermal interface material serves as the sole interface between the hot die and the heatsink. Therefore, it's super important that we use good thermal compound and apply it well.
Unfortunately, good thermal paste is not always used, and often it is applied poorly or with great variance. By using a better thermal paste - or liquid metal - and reseating the heatsink, we can achieve noticeably improved temperatures.
Repasting with liquid metal on a laptop means applying it directly between the silicon and the copper heatsink.
Why consider Liquid Metal?
Generally, for the same reasons you would consider reapplying the thermal paste to begin with.
If your thermals are out of whack, CPU/GPUs are throttling, or your fan speeds are way higher than normal - it might be time to consider a repaste.
The improvements from liquid metal are pretty substantial, I wont even link to results because you can find them yourself. Obviously, while you can get good results from a conventional thermal paste, liquid metal tends to do even better (if you are looking for a conventional paste, thermal grizzly kryonaut is one of the best and is very easy to work with).
This is because of simple physics: assuming all other variables are constant, if your thermal material has a higher thermal conductivity then your thermal interface will have less resistance.[2] As a result, you transfer more thermal energy out of the system (CPU) and into the heatsink per unit of time. This drops your CPU temps and increases your heatsink temperature, and the increased delta T of your heatsink vs ambient air means more instantaneous cooling. (see: newton's law of cooling)
If your thermals just seem okay and your laptop is hard to take apart (check your service manual), repasting may not be worth the trouble.
Some food for thought:
Many people don't consider the fact that same-model laptops may be cooled differently because of manufacturing variation:
The result is that while you and the guy next to you may have the same model laptop from the same factory line, one of you might get noticeably better thermals under the same loads.
- Variation in heatsinks (roughness of the contact plate, are the heatpipes bent?, is the contact plate bent?)
- Variation in thermal paste application (amount of thermal paste, position of thermal paste, mounting pressure, thermal pad placement, quality of paste used, etc)
- Variation in silicon (differences in operating voltage, silicon characteristics [leakage, ASIC quality])
- Variation in components (choice of board components: VRAM? mosfets?)
Then there's the fact that laptops tend to get hotter (and thus louder) over time, due to
- Dust buildup in vents & fans (reduces airflow)
- Seepage & wearout of thermal paste[2]
- More installed software (correlated with processor load, reduced C-state residency = more power & heat)
Some tricks to consider before reapplying thermal paste/liquid metal:
- If you have an intel cpu, haswell or newer: try throttlestop to undervolt your CPU which reduces power use.
- Discrete GPU users: Try MSI afterburner to undervolt your GPU (not always possible)
- Try blowing the vents clean of dust
Dangers of Liquid Metal:
Electrical Conductivity
Before you try working with liquid metal for the first time, please always remember that liquid metal is metal, it will conduct electricity.
If you spill this stuff on your laptop's motherboard (or squeeze some of it off the CPU/GPU when you screw down the heatsink) and then turn the computer on, it could short circuitry.
RIP computer. It happens.
This is why you must use small amounts of LM and seal off the surrounding area.
Example: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/questions-about-liquid-metal.803973/page-3#post-10535148
Sometimes there are surface-mounted components on the CPU/GPU PCB. Some people use electrical tape to cover those components, others a coat of varnish, others kapton tape, etc. In any case, your seal around the liquid metal should be as close to airtight as possible.
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Dangers of Liquid Metal:
Reactivity with Copper Heatsinks
It's been debated whether liquid metals damage copper heatsinks.
They do: over time, the gallium in liquid metal will be absorbed into the copper heatsink, causing the LM to "dry" out.
Let's explain in more detail:
The electrode potential of gallium is -0.53V, nickel is -0.24V, and copper is +0.34V.
The difference between gallium and copper favors a reaction that occurs even at room temperatures.
Obviously, all liquid metals have a high gallium content (plus other metals to reduce the melting point). When the gallium contacts pure copper, the metals irreversibly alloy. This reaction proceeds until there is no more copper or all the gallium is consumed [3].
The reaction is: Ga + Cu → CuGa2 [67%] + Cu3Ga [11%]. ( + Ga2O3 [12%])
Both CuGa products are stable until 175C[3][4].
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The means liquid metal will literally eat into the copper until the gallium is gone, and the resulting copper-gallium alloy is a silver-ish color. Yes, - in case you are wondering - the gallium in liquid metal reacts this way despite the fact that there are other metal stabilizers present in LM[5].
The non-gallium components (indium, tin, etc) of the liquid metal[3] which are solid at room temperature will be left behind on the heatsink surface as this process occurs. The formation of this non-gallium metal deposit is most obvious visually when the gallium is totally absorbed into copper. Do note that this residual non-gallium liquid metal is hard and brittle, as you would expect. While this deposit is technically metal and is a good heat conductor, it does not form evenly and therefore it's highly likely that an air gap will also form between the die and the heatsink, and your laptop will hit thermal runaway at this point. This video [link] is a good example of the consequences of this process. This mechanism appears to be the most common cause of long-term failure in LM applications.
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Note that at higher temperatures, the invasion of liquid gallium into the copper heatsink only gets faster.[6] Anecdotally, it appears that this process can take anywhere from just a couple months to a year+ until a point of failure is reached.
The factors influencing the speed of this process include obvious ones like temperature, formula of LM used, surface roughness, and amount of LM used. But, the porosity and purity of the copper heatsink may also play a role. Due to all these variables, accurately predicting the rate of erosion for an application of LM is simply not possible.
Here's a graph of the mass fractions of the obtained CuGa alloys at various temperatures (oxygen atmosphere) for you nerds: [link]
This effect is less observed in the classic delidded desktop CPU because the gallium in the liquid metal is far less reactive against the nickle plating of the CPU heatspreader. (The nickle plating is designed to protect the copper against normal solder alloying, but also happens to be effective vs gallium[7]).
If some people tell you that LM 'dries out' while others say it's totally stable, now you know why. LM is fine under a CPU IHS, and its even fine when used between a die and pure copper, but in long-term use it will pit copper surfaces and this can lead to temperatures that stay stable for months but suddenly spike towards the end of the LM's usable life. Again, nickel surfaces are also pitted, but just at a significantly slower rate:
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This image: coolaboratory liquid pro after 1 year on a nickel-plated copper heatspreader. The excess LM has been removed to reveal the heatspreader surface. Gallium-Nickel alloying is clearly visible, but the thermal impact of this alloying is likely minimal. If this surface were exposed copper instead of nickel, then the damage would be worse and you may be able to see metal deposits on the surface.
The last interesting things to note are:
1. At 20C, the thermal conductivity of CuGa2 (the principal alloy of gallium and copper) is 98 W/(m⋅K)[1], while copper's thermal conductivity is 400 W/(m⋅K).
2. While we don't know the exact formula for any of the liquid metals, they are all gallium based so they will all attack copper to varying extents.
Conclusions:
1. Liquid metals will visibly degrade the copper heatsink surface over time.
2. Simply buffing the residue off the copper heatsink and reapplying the LM might actually be OK. The CuGa alloy obviously can't match pure copper for heat conduction but it's still way better than solder or thermal paste - the formation of copper-gallium alloy alone should not be the cause of thermal bottlenecks.
It's not clear from my research how deep the gallium attacks into copper. It is clear that LM will alloy with copper and 'dry out'. However, if over multiple applications the gallium can't penetrate its own pitting anymore, then the LM invasion into copper will stop and you can - theoretically - end up with a 'stable' LM application.
If your laptop's heatsinks have copper contacts to the die and the inconvenience of potentially opening up your laptop to reapply liquid metal every 6-12+ months is okay to you, then liquid metal should be fine.
Dangers of Liquid Metal:
Reactivity with Aluminum
TODO
How to use Liquid Metal
TODO
Frequently Asked Questions
TODO
Sources
1. https://sci-hub.ac/http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/6231443/?reload=true
2. https://i.imgur.com/QAOaxtg.png (slide from dow corning TIM presentation)
3. http://www.ipme.ru/e-journals/RAMS/no_81808/grigoryeva.pdf
4. https://sci-hub.ac/https://www.scientific.net/DDF.326-328.227
5. https://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/811932
6. http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1124&context=mechengdiss
7. https://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
Please feel free to comment if there are any mistakes, my reading over the papers linked above was pretty cursory so I welcome anyone who can help clarify. This stuff is all based on questions I had personally (mainly "is this safe to use on a laptop") so I hope this can be useful for others in some way.
As always, feel free to leave feedback or ask questions, that's what the forum is for.
Thread is a work in progress. 9/27/17
More reading material for bored people:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...y-liquid-ultra-any-tips-before-i-start.741745
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Good read, I like it.
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Nice work, thanks, it's really informative.
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Definitely a great guide for the beginners. I would like to add something in regard with using Liquid Metal thermal paste on GPU. As far as I have experienced, i never recommend using liquid metal with GPU, there are insane chances of shorting everything and end up with damaged GPU. Even the good thermal pastes like the Grizzly Conductonaut are not safe to use untill you know what you're doing and the right process.
hmscott likes this. -
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good job OP, keep it up
Sent from my Xiaomi Mi Max 2 (Oxygen) using Tapatalk -
SOrry if I am necroing this, but I bought a clevo with a delidded cpu and during the purchase selected CLU to be applied between the heatsink and the HIS.
Long story short, do I need to clean the LM everytime I remove the heatsink like regular paste or is simply putting it back in place enough? -
simply putting it back would result in very horrible temps. as with any kind of TIM, it needs to be cleaned off and freshly reapplied every time the heatsink is taken off.
also, are you absolutely sure the LM was applied between heatsink and IHS, not cpu die and IHS? afaik, vendors only do LM beneath the ihs, not on top of it due to too much risk involved for it to spill out during transport. -
Thanks for confirming, guess that if I want to repad and repad for the gpu side I'll have to wait.jaybee83 likes this. -
depending on your ambient dustiness, u wont need to repaste for like 6-12 months. as for thermal pads, they can be reused several times, just keep an eye on tearing.
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yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
1) on CPU, 91% alcohol and any disposable cloth. Toilet paper works too. Just make sure you clean off the fibers when you're done.
2) on LM: first use napkins and 91% alcohol. Once all the main hardened stuff is gone, take 3000 grit sandpaper to it. Since you are POLISHING and not actually sanding, you can just use your fingers.
Don't think too much. It's a lot easier than it seems. It's just annoying.oSChakal likes this. -
But when you say *On cpu* you mean on the die or on the HIS? Because usually, there's LM on the CPU AND the heatsink. Sorry if this is a dumb question -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
3000 grit sandpaper + 91% alcohol on heatsink.
any cloth (Please exercise full anti-static precautions first) on CPU + alcohol on cloth or tissue paper..Papusan likes this. -
Since you obviously have knowledge with LM, do you have any guides/tips on how to apply it as a beginner? I'd like to apply it on the GPU too if possible. -
yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
It's a bit tricky to apply LM the first time plus you should probably have some kind of runoff protection around the IHS and GPU die, like a foam dam using that window seal I linked previously. It's a pretty involved process overall and honestly if you're feeling chicken don't worry about LM. Like I said the heatsink is not good enough to benefit from LM IMO and traditional paste would probably work as well if not better. In the past I would never use LM unless I was confident of the results from the pressure paper test. Using LM on a heatsink with no pressure or god forbid a gap is pointless. -
Just wanted to update everyone.
I bought everything, I was ready to clean some LM and to my surprise, Eurocom didn't apply LM like it's stated on my invoice, instead it was probably Kryonaut or something like that.
I am beyond pissed, the temps were good, but still; don't give option/ charge customers for a service that you don't or can't provide.
I repasted and partially repaded (still waiting for the rest of my pad to arrive) with Hydronaut, temps are exactly the same.
But still, I am pissed about the whole thing. -
Thanks to @woodzstack I was saved and he done pretty good job. @Eurocom should have to work there service level.
woodzstack likes this. -
Anyway ; if anybody has a guide on how to apply LM on mxm cards, I'm all ears.
Like @yrekabakery linked, I bought the window foam thing, electric tape and now I'm waiting on the CLU + pads to be done with it once and for all. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
But generally, when they charge you for a LM or say they will do so, they do it, not to talk about their specific quality of doing so, but you should just contact them, they might have to make it up to you, since you paid for something you didn't get, if what you are telling us is true.NIGHTMARE likes this. -
https://imgur.com/gallery/qEa7qKD
This doesn't look like liquid metal to me, but I could be mistaken. -
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro -
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Before
After job done by woodzstack. See difference between both paste colour
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProoSChakal and woodzstack like this. -
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro -
yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
I wouldn't go in expecting miracles if this is your first time with LM, just keep that in mind. -
I just noticed @woodzstack is living close to me,
jaybee83 and woodzstack like this. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
jaybee83 likes this. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
Always have to use your best judgement in these situations. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
It's darker grey. period. The Aeronought or other cheaper versions they offer, which are like 10th the price but very poorly performing, are paler and watery and such like the one they used, so I am guessing mainly that it is Aeronought as an example. it might actually be something else even.
Now you will notice when they did the LM, they have a spill on the corners and sides. That never happens with me. I am more careful and take my time. Maybe if I was paid to rush the job and had a boss breathing down my neck telling me hurry up and threatening to fire me, IDK, maybe I would screw it up too and not care, but otherwise normally we take our time and do this carefully. Especially on a 5000$ laptop. -
woodzstack likes this.
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woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
I told them if they use superglue to only bad 2 corners and just a tiny bit, do not get it on the silicon wafer, only get it on the glue that was there before...
anyways the black stuff is not glue, its a black silicon, and the best way to repaste/reglue a IHS back on is to go to your hardware store and get a black silicon just like it and put it back.
Never use super glue, is becomes fixed into the CPU and damages it physically where you can not easily put back the IHS if you ever take it off again, it's really silly, the job they do is amateur at best. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
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yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
@woodzstack just curious, what do you do to get the super glue off the PCB?
woodzstack likes this. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
essentially - DO NOT USE super glue... use a silicon based glue like is already there like the pro's. -
yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
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ouch, sanding paper on the cpu?
i just use the plastic tip of a pen to scrape off the black silicon seal. since the plastic is softer than the green cpu pcb it doesnt damage it and pens are cheap and repeaceable
im sure it would also work nicely on the superglue residues.
and yeah, thats definitely not kryonaut on the gpu by eurocom...
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yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
woodzstack and jaybee83 like this. -
Well, it's official, laptop just left today so @woodzstack can take care of it and fix Eurocom's mess.
He said he would hook me up with those cooper IHS and repad with grizzly thermal pad/LM on CPU and he'll see if the heatsink make contact enough to also put LM on GPU.
The price is more than fair and after seeing the job he did on @NIGHTMARE laptop, I know the machine will run like a charm.woodzstack, jaybee83 and NIGHTMARE like this. -
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Prowoodzstack and oSChakal like this. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
Or PM me here ion NBR -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
jaybee83 likes this. -
yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso
woodzstack likes this. -
Sent from my Xiaomi Mi Max 2 (Oxygen) using Tapatalkwoodzstack likes this. -
woodzstack Alezka Computers , Official Clevo reseller.
However, it would have been nice if you didn't HAVE to have done that to begin with, correct ? -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
3000 grit sandpaper works extremely well for cleaning any hardened material off a CPU silicon slug.
Just make sure you wet the sandpaper with 91% or better alcohol first. This enhances the polishing ability and helps reduce the abrasion ability. 3000 grit sandpaper is also very nice to have for cleaning dried or absorbed liquid metal from copper or other (non-aluminum) surfaces.
Hardened superglue? I don't use that crap. Real men use THIS:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...fl_title_10?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3OSNZBUPOJ7AE
And use CELLULOSE BASED nail polish for insulating little tiny SMD resistors and caps around CPU and GPU slugs. -
Its more stronger than super glue so it will be more difficult to remove too ?
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Liquid Metal Explained: How it works, why it fails (and how to use it)
Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by margroloc, Sep 27, 2017.