Long term usage. Does it exist?

Hey guys,

Ok so I’ve been browsing Google search engine for some time now, trying to find a solution to a little dilemma I’m currently having…. seems it doesn’t want to take the easy option of helping me.

I’m confident that some of you (at least) can point me in the right direct. So here goes!

I’ve been an avid gamer for some time now. During the N64 realm, right up to the introduction of the PS1. After that, I left console gaming forever and respectively joined the PC mass. Deciding what to do for a career option however, steered me in joining the Royal Navy to further my ambition to travel. This has made things, well rather difficult to fulfil my addiction to gaming because it’s quite awkward taking your pc tower to sea with you these days, especially on her majesty’s warship! lol

So then I joined the wonderful world of laptop gaming! Oh boy it’s been an expensive one at that!

To date I’ve been through 3 gaming laptops, first being Dells flagship XPS M1710 with a 7950m (before the alienware take over). Second was Dell’s successor of XPS M1710 with the new M1730 with dual 8800m Sli which played the original Crysis brilliantly!
And now thirdly, the one I’m typing this new thread on the Clevo m860 TU with the 260m gtx. The reason why I reverted back to a single GPU over the dual option was because I didn’t want back problems later in life. And the Dell XPS looked hideous back then. Not a very good wingman to have around you.

So by now most of you are probably wondering… what on earth do you want help with and just get to the point?! I’m about to. Patience. lol

Basically I’ve been spending a good (but enjoyable) fortune now on updating gaming laptops roughly around the 2-3 year point, keeping up with the giant leap in video gaming technology. I’ve currently got my eyes on the Eurocom panther 2.0 with dual 580m sli (or maybe crossfire 6990m) with desktop Intel i7-990X Extreme processor with 8gb ram. I know I know it’s absolutely massive and weighs a bloody tonne but this thing will hopefully last for some years to come (I’m planning).

But more often then not (especially with laptops) it’s normally always the GPU that will first need updating- to meet the ever changing visual display of future games. The second culprit normally being the CPU.

However I’ve been reading the sticky: http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...obile-graphics-cards-read-before-posting.html
That GPU cards cannot be updated and there’s no point in trying but is that true with all? Even if it has a dedicated MXM slot in the laptop?- I don’t know much about this by the way? Looked on: MXM Upgrade Home Page

The reason why I’m asking is because the company Eurocom say’s its laptop are for long term options can are very upgradeable. However are they future proof? Say in a few years down the line when the VGA/CPU chipsets change?

Sorry for the blabbering on. But in a ideal world, it would be much simpler to just change the parts that need changing then changing the whole chassis. I very much do miss PC’s!

Thank you for any help given.

Regards,
Anthony.

 

You can upgrade MXM cards. Just make sure you get a fairly new tech. Right now MXM IIIb is the latest, and will probably get a few more GPU iterations before it's replaced by some other MXM spec. Problem with MXM is some manufacturer's decide to make their own proprietary cards and slots, even though they call it MXM, it's not necessarily compatible. But you usually have options to upgrade, albeit expensive.

2-3 years is about par for any gaming tech, even desktop if you want to play at a decent resolution and with highest detail. Good thing is that with a laptop 1920x1080 is typically the max resolution and pretty much every mid-grade card can handle that resolution without issue.

I would also think that until consoles are refreshed that gaming requirements won't jump up too much. Although it's safe to say in 2-3 years Sony and Xbox will have a new console ready to release.

 

So i sent Eurocome an email regarding this.

Hello Eurocom,

I found this company while searching gaming laptops through Google search engine.
Was browsing through the collection of laptops available from Eurocom, very interested in the EUROCOM Panther 2.0 model for the high customisation options.

Normally when purchasing hardware, I buy the latest hardware available and then upgrade 2-3 years down the line. However this soon becomes an expensive option and more expensive then needs be as only normally the VGA/CPU needs replacing.
I noticed that both VGA/CPU's can be upgradeable in your line of laptops which sounds promising. However are they future proof? Say in a few years down the line when the VGA/CPU chipsets change?

I find buying a completely new system for only changing a few parts quite costly and such a inconvenience.

Thank you for your support.

Regards,
Anthony.

----------------------------------------------------------

Anthony,

Thank you for your interest in Eurocom.

You are correct in that Eurocom systems can be fully upgraded down the road to keep up with current components and technology. All CPU, VGA, RAM, etc are upgradable and not hardwired into place.

However, as with all technology, eventually the motherboard will become outdated and it will be time for a change. However, we have built the Panther 2.0 to last and we don’t see it becoming obsolete for the next 10 years. Meaning, that you will be able to upgrade the system for the foreseeable future without worrying about the life span of the system.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions or if you need any help configuring or purchasing a system.

Regards,
Matthew Thompson


So is this true? Can u update the GPU/CPU up to 10 years of the lifetime of the laptop? This would be more the ideal as it would save al lthe hassle of purchasing a completely new sysyem just to have the latest hardware.

Many thanks.
Anthony.

 

Just because someone intends that a particular design be available for 10 years in no way obligates them to further deisgn and provide upgrades.

 

Considering my history with electronics, I'm doing well if a laptop lasts 3 years.

That is one reason I simply don't care to spend more than maybe US $800 on a laptop. My last one cost $700. It's probably going to die/be horribly obsolete in just a few years, so why flush $1000+ down the loo?

 

Not quite, first it will be alot more then that. This laptop fully customised will set me back just over £2,500. So that $1000 just turned into $4077.75 my friend.

Hence why i'm asking for help in purchasing such upgrades. Because my last 3 gaming laptops were in the region of £2000 - £2500 ($3262.2 - $4077.75)
individually!! Can you see why now i want a more long term investment out of my gaming notebooks?

Can a laptop last 10 years? Will even MXM3b stay for that long, for future 26 nm GPU cards?

 

No laptop will last 5 years for gaming even with upgrading, let alone ten. It's just the nature of the industry. If you wanna play, you gotta pay. I believe MXM III was introduced in 2008, so chances are there will be a new spec out in the next year or so as power requirements go up and switchable graphics become more common.

Case in point, I have a desktop that is probably circa 2003, eight years old, with AMD Athlon XP 2400+ in there now with a 6600GT video card and 2GB DDR1 RAM. Pretty much best it can get with the configuration. Do you think it can game with anything released in the last couple of years? Not a chance.

 

But is there roughly an idea how long MXM IIIb will be with us? I found that the new 256bit cards can run on MXM IIIb and even ATI's new 26nm M7000 is rumoured to also run on MXM IIIb.

Can you see the point i'm making? It's an awful bloody nuisance that there are tight restrictions on upgrading a simple laptop.

Why will MXM IIIb has to change in the first place as surely as GPU's get smaller & smaller the power needed to run them gets smaller and smaller right? MXM only changes when more voltage is needed to run the card.

 

I agree, but laptops have always been this way. As processes get smaller, they may change the standard for size, voltage, or any number of reasons. Heck they may reduce the size of the cards. Who knows. If you want small, go with a Shuttle type PC. Something small and compact (size of a 4-slice toaster) but uses common desktop components. I built a Sandy Bridge desktop for < $800 with GTX 460, i5-2400, 8GB DDR3.

 

It won't last 10 years as a gaming machine, but when its gaming life is over you should be able to get a few hundred from it.

 

Of course it can last 10 years. But it will be primitive and obsolete by the then. Just think about it, you can probably still find a machine somewhere that still plays Pac Man but in comparison with the games we have today, who would want to?

It's just a question of keeping a machine for as long as it can do the things you want it to do. After all, a brand new car won't get me from A to B any quicker than one that is 20 years old. You just won't look as fancy in the process.

 

You do know eurocom (and sager, and metabox and pioneer here in oz) are all made by CLEVO right?

Same chassis, different label/brand?

"Panther 2.0" = clevo x8100 base

Which means YOU don't need a new laptop to enjoy a new gpu mate

Nothing tech "lasts 10yrs" certainly not gpus, anyone who tells you that is just trying to sell you their $h!t. Warranty periods give you a good starting point about manufacturer confidence in longievity of their products.

 

games are always faster than GPUs. But processor really may be fast enough for 10 years.
So I suggest you find out notebook with good 2 GPUs but with mobile SB CPU. Some of them are almost the same or better than some desktop nehalem/clarcksfield ones. Maybe that processor is beast but mobile CPUs have bigger chance to live longer as they use lesser power and heat lesser. (depends on notebook cooling system of course)

 

I can hardly keep my laptops for more than 2 years. I reckon keyboard and the battery are the first thing to go. Just after 1.5 year or so I feel the keys are getting less firm and I don`t like that feeling. Batteries have a certain charge and empty cycles before saying byebye.

New tech always tempt me to buy new laptops anyway, so for me it is a nightmare to own the same laptop for more than 2 years

 

thats why there was a discussion of the MXM format, currently the MXM IIIB is getting old, and there will be a replacement, more probably than not.

if that is really the x8100 that model is already discontinued, meaning a sandy bridge E will replace it

However no matter where you cut it, the successor of the panther 2.0 would be limited by the MXM slot that it uses, by the cpu upgradability (meaning if intel dont go on changing sockets again, since the sandy bridge E [LGA 2011] is the successor of the LGA 1366, and they aint compatible).

And you have to be lucky enough for clevo to launch upgraded motherboards, so you can swap and still upgrade the thing, however this will cost you a pretty penny.

If you want the power now, I would get the m18x. if you can wait I would wait for the launch of the next year high end gpus

 

What? You know what CPU's were around 10 years ago? Athlon XP and original Pentium 4's. They couldn't touch any modern game even with the most powerful GPU.

I'm the same. It's not only the tech that gets old, but the laptop itself. Cost of battery replacement, keyboard gets sticky or mushy and cost to replace that. Backlight on the LCD goes, which is likely after five years even. Fry your power supply. Products age with use and eventually fail. If you rarely use it, then ok, it will probably do ok for basic tasks, but even in ten years wireless technology will probably change, ethernet, adapter ports (i.e. USB), etc. In five years a $1000 laptop will outrun your $3000 DTR.

 

To be honest, I could see a 990X still being effective in 7 years or so. And, we don't know what the upgrade path will be in 5 years. If you can get, in 3 years, an AMD 9970M (yes, I made that up) to work, then great! I got a 280M to work in an M9750 that originally came with a 7950GTX, and that was almost 5 years old!

 

Only my grandma and grandpa like to tell me what was 10 years ago. You should live in present days and think about future. I AM TELLING YOU that most powerful series of nowadays CPUs (Intel SB I7) will live for up to 10 years and will be capable of managing it's charge.

 

And only in sci-fi can they predict the future, unless you're using a Magic 8 Ball? So we should just ignore the past and not learn from it? We know 100% more about the past than we do the future, except predictions. Moore's law has held true since its inception thirty years ago, and show no signs of diverging.

 

Yeah I heard about that law but why do you think that evolution of technologies will be as much needed for usual customers as it was 10 years ago? For example do you see much difference in usual laptop using between 2-nd gen SSD and 3-rd gen? I am not sure that SATA 3 is what you can't live without.

BTW. I am OK with my I7-740QM and I want to upgrade to 840QM only because I can (well actually thinking about price I can't).

 

It will probably still function if taken care of, but technology will be so far ahead that cell phones will have more power than it will. Not to mention advanced technologies integrated into newer machines that will leave the ten year old machine behind. Heck, wi-fi may even go obsolete by then.

 

yeah but still. For example I use Sony Ericsson w910 while there are many smartphones with touchscreens etc. I don't need it I'm fine with my W910

1. It is already thin enough
2. It is still beautiful
3. It's slider!
4. Still nod bad screen granulation (320x240 on 3.2")

 

DAMN this technology progress!

 

Well, the fact that the upcoming Kal-el chips from Nvidia will roast Pentium 4's and Athlon 64, I'd say that a new smartphone in 10 years kiling your current laptop are pretty high.

 

You are pursuing a design criteria that doesn't exist in the laptop world at all. Many forum members have already mentioned that no laptop can keep up with the tech curve for 10 years, but the reality of laptops is much worse than that.

Mobile systems are more difficult to upgrade for a number of reasons:
- mobility and size requirements leave little space for modular design that allows for upgrades
- most manufacturers have little incentive to allow upgrade options if integrated components force the consumer to buy a new laptop. IE, post-purchase upgrades are not good for laptop manufacturers.
- the few manufacturers who follow standards like MXM have very high prices for MXM GPUs.

If you want to pay less money and upgrade less frequently, laptops are not the best solution even if we're talking about niche gaming laptops like those mentioned above.

 

That would make you a computer manufacturer's greatest dream come true. Personally, I prefer the more conservative route.

You could have stopped right there. Only the design holds them back. And that's why competition is so important: There was a time when your car radio was hardwired to the chassis. If you wanted an upgrade, you had to take apart half the car.

Again, it's only a matter of time before competition puts an end to that.

Actually, that would be the marketing programming.

Absolutely. Just because something is old, doesn't mean it's useless. With all the bells and whistles of today's smart phones, a phone from 10 year ago would work just as well.

 

I don't buy a new laptop because of marketing, I buy it because my machine doesn't perform how I want it to or lacks features I want/need and can't upgrade to those. If you are into games, and want to play the latest, you get to a point where your machine struggles to perform, then it's time to get a new laptop. With a mid-range laptop this is typically 18-24 months.

 

Expecting a 10 year old computer to run the latest games and programs at top notch speeds (even with upgrades) is not feasible.
It probably will work if maintained though.

However, I do think that 5 years is a reasonable expectation of how long a mid/high end systems will last (with some upgrades - and depending on user habits in what types of programs they run).

People have been using 6 year old laptops for their browsing/email/facebook, and all they needed to do was upgrade their RAM to say 1 or 2GB (from 512) - depending on their chipset support, in order to make some 'breathing room' for the OS.

Moore's law is nothing more than a joke. It's been tailored to fit the capitalist economy for one thing, and Intel (plus other manufacturers) are intentionally keeping that model because it brings in much more revenue over long period of time (never-mind the premise that currect cpu's could be a lot stronger and cheaper - that's not their goal).

However, over the past decade, we have seen a shift from single core to dual-core.
If this trend continues, and mobile cpu's continue to get stronger according to Moore's law (which is nothing more than a little bit of revision to give you roughly 20 to 45% increase with architecture change), then a current quad core i7 cpu will more than likely be adequate 5 years down the line.
We still have little to no clue regarding 6 core or 8 core mobile cpu's.

My P7350 for example is 150% slower than Q9100 per benchmarks in multi-threaded programs (since I use 3dsMax, this difference is obviously noticeable to me).
A Q9100 is 84% slower than modern 2630QM (just less than twice the performance boost in 2 years).

So essentially, if my Dual core is any indication, then, over the past 4 years (the Penryn is nothing more than a refresh of a same architecture of what came prior to that with a lower TDP, so I'm counting the generation with original Core2Duo cpu's from which mine was refreshed), we have seen 234% increase in raw performance (architecture and core included) when it comes to MULTITHREADED tasks.

And still, my core2Duo seems to be up to snuff when it comes to 3dsMax and even games (despite what others may think, the 9600m GT GDDR3 - almost 3 years old mid-range gpu by now - is a decent card, and while I cannot play exactly Crysis maxed out, to be honest, those types of games aren't what I play in the first place - other types of games such as ME, DA, etc. run just fine).

So if a mid-range laptop can last a person 3 or 4 years time, I suspect a high-end laptop (without any upgrades) can easily push a 5 years envelope, unless some kind of a drastic change occurs in the CPU/GPU world.

Seriously... what's up with the people who equate older systems with dinosaurs?
While I will agree they are slower, but depending on what you are doing, and in some cases inspite the passage of time, numerous computers (even laptops) have held up to snuff.

 

Regardless if Moore's law is just fabricated to fix advancement of CPU tech or if it's just nature of the technology, it's a fact either way.

For general use, I had a Sony laptop for over 6 years. It served its purpose. I got rid of it eventually because it was eventually too slow for the web with flash becoming more popular, etc, an Athlon XP mobile just didn't cut it.

 

Man, just because you choose to buy new laptop every 8 year, doesn`t mean "my" way is wrong. You come out very anti marketing with your multiquote post. And please don`t jump in to a conclusion. The reason why I choose to buy new laptop after 1.5-2 years is because
A) It cannot keep up with the newest games at the settings I want
B) Newer CPUs have improved power management = Better battery life = cooler laptop = quieter laptop
C) Keyboard wears off and the keys are getting looser.
D) Battery gets worse and worse at keeping charge
E) The laptop collects dust and the cooling ability gets worse. Spraying compressed air won`t solve this completely.
F) New revisions of technology arrives. USB X.0, SATA X.0, Lightpeak, and along with it faster harddrives and SSDs.
G) The fact that I like new technology. Fresher design, backlit keyboard, better audio etc etc

It has nothing to do with marketing.

 

I bought laptop less than 1 year ago and after 1 month I already wanted another one At that time in BestBuy I could buy for 1200$ either Asus with G73 with good GPU but lil bit slower CPU and awful children design or Sony VAIO F12 which LOOKS GREAT (that's for that one who told that design in laptops is not important. Hell, how it is important TO ME!)

In one month new VAIO F13 came out with new DX11 GPU (instead of my 10-30% slower DX10). And that's it.

So actually I understand that if you want to play games you need new GPU every 2.5 years for notebooks. But If you don't think about games and some sort of professional things like video rendering then nowadays CPUs will work for you VERY LONG.

BTW Cloudfire what do you do with old lappies?

 

I sell them to poor suckers who are not so materialistic as me and use that money on my new laptop.

 

What are you talking about; "Moores law is just a joke." My Dell Inspiron 700m from 5 years ago doesnt even run Minecraft on low fog. Get your facts straight.

 

I didn't say your way is wrong. If you want to buy a new laptop, ipad, or iphone every 2 years that's your business. I'm sure Apple will be well pleased. However, I'm pointing out the fact that the idea that a computer will only last 2 years need to be rethought. I can't think of a single "appliance" in my home that I would spend $1000 dollars on just to buy a new one in just 2 years?

Not anti-marketing, rather, a pragmatic approach to the purchase of electronics.

My post refer to economics not personal preference. That's for you to decide.

On the contrary, if you're not aware of the shiny new updated version you'd make due with what you already have. It's not until you see it advertised that you have to have it.

It's just like the rule that we should buy a new car every 4 years:

If you go talk to an auto salesman he will give you a dozen reasons why you need to buy a new car. However, in reality, car can last 30 years...or more! No it won't be the most fuel efficient, and no it won't be able to park itself. But as a platform to get you from A to B, a 30 year old car can do that just as well as one the brand spanking new and cost half your bank account.

If it means anything to you, I like those shiny new gadgets as well as the next guy, but there comes a point where practicality and financial (and ecological) good sense has to prevail, and a 5 second faster boot time, is not it.



PS My last laptop (Dell Inspiron) was 6 years old and still running when I updated it.

 

The bottom line is that it comes down to usage. If it's just for internet browsing and email, sure it should suffice, as long as ways to connect to the internet don't change drastically. My parents even buy a new laptop every two years about, but usually the old one goes to my step-dad and my mom gets the new one. But 99% of what they do is browse the web and send email. Well my mom does a lot of Office stuff, Powerpoint, Excel, etc. But even after four years my step-dad thinks the machine is too old.

 

I think laptops are becoming closer and closer to desktop performance. My desktop ati 5850 can still max out newly released games at 1920x1080. Heck, look at benchmarks of the desktop ati 6970 and nvidia 580, they start at 1920x1080 and go to higher ridiculous resolutions. Honestly, in terms of graphics cards on the desktop side, they have hit a wall in terms of gaining tangible performance upgrades. The desktop 580 is considered overkill for most games out there and running 580s in sli is thought to be borderline crazy unless running at above 1920x1080. So where does that leave my Alienware m18x that benches at the same level as a desktop i7 990x and 580? I think most people are really underestimating the power of laptop components. Obviously $2500 is steep for a system with the power of a desktop 990x and 580, but the realization is that you get the same power. I feel that the 28nm gpus will be on par with a desktop 6970. Just imagine running two of those in a year in a Clevo or Alienware. If you hid the pc tower and laptop in a blind test, most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

Indeed laptops have gotten fast, but desktop will always be faster since similar technology applies to both; and desktop have no power/size restriction.

Nevertheless, a laptop of today can outperform what was a high end desktop of just a few year ago. At the current rate performance increase for the average user will become insignificant and the only selling advantage will be features (aka cell phones).

At that point, business machines and the niche gaming rigs will be the only computers left where power/speed increases will matter. It is the manufacturers who are ready for these groups that will survive the future in mobile computing.

 

If you gonna sell 2-years laptop for 199$ then I'm first in line to become that poor sucker:yes: