MSI Keyboard on Clevo P170EM

Hi,

Ok, got a bit of a problem. Bought a chiclet keyboard for a MSI but which on the add stated that it was compatible with the Clevo P170EM (bough it directly from the manufacturer Green Cell). However, it does not work, keys are mapped wrong (i.e. the 8 is mapped on the [ALT] key)

Anyone has experience with this or a simular issue? possible solutions, i.e. a modded BIOS?

Thanks!
Jorge

 

The only way the keys can be remapped is if the EC BIOS is reprogrammed, which no one will be able to do.

A compatible keyboard if it has a connection issue will map some keys incorrectly, as well as map multiple keys to the same character. If that's what you're seeing then make sure the connector is clean and is making good contact.

 

OK, so no "easy" way to do it. I checked the connector and all looks good. So I guess I'll have to way for the seller to answer me as they clearly stated that the keyboard is compatible...

Thanks!

 

OK, so I got in touch with the seller, they sent me a second keyboard in case the first one was damaged during shipping and still no luck. At least they'll refund me the value of the keyboard.

Too bad it does not work, it was a really nice keyboard.

Cheers
Jorge

 

Been a long time, say 20 years, since I looked at this sort of thing but then mapping was a matter of telling windows what driver to use. Alternately I think there were utilities that would allow you to map the keys any way you choose.

Would this sort out your problem?
https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-gb/downloads/mouse-keyboard-center

Or perhaps:
https://uk.pcmag.com/how-to/116116/how-to-remap-your-keyboard

 

HI @BlameTheEx

Thanks for the suggestion, but I can't even log into windows, all keys are mapped wrong. But that will come handy in case I manage to find one of the older island-type keyboards

Does anyone have a steelseries keyboard on its Clevo P170EM? Do you happen to have the part number?

Thanks!
Jorge

 

Well a bit of a problem but how about plugging in a USB keyboard to set it up?

Alternately, well you are on the net now. Find what utility you need and how to use it. Download and install on memory stick and then plug that into the laptop. Hopefully you can do it all by mouse.

Edit oops...still need USB keyboard to log in.

Edit2:

Can I use a USB keyboard on my laptop?

Just plug it into your laptop, either into the keyboard port or a USB port, whichever is available. You can start using the keyboard the second it's plugged in. Note that adding an external keyboard often doesn't disable the laptop's internal keyboard. You can use both!

 

Hi @BlameTheEx

hum,I thought that the keyboard could not be read at all as it appears to be non-compatible? Saw somewhere online that the reason the keyboard was not detected is that the way the key matrix is read?

anyway, it might be worth the attempt, will borrow a usb keyboard and give it a try. Might come handy to access the BIOS as well.

Cheers
Jorge

 

But the keyboard can be read. A real problem would be if typing a key did nothing or not the same thing each time.

Kind of unlikely that it couldn't. That would require custom electronics for absolutely no reason. Much easier to forget all convention when specifying the translation table.

Each key stroke results in 1 byte of data sent to the laptop. That is a number from 0 to 255. The laptop translates that number using a translation table which is, I think, ether stored in the bios or loaded into windows. Both in fact. Windows offers keyboard drivers, but clearly there is already one there before windows is installed.

In theory the correct Windows 10 keyboard driver (which is really not more than a table) should be available somewhere for download. The keyboard manufacturers web site should be a good place to look. Just have to hope it doesn't refuse on grounds of wrong laptop. But if so no problem. You just have to use a utility to change the one you have.

If I were you I wouldn't fiddle with anything else till the keyboard is sorted.... except if you have data needing backing up. A real screw up might end up in you loosing the lot n needing a fresh Windows install. Not that it is likely, but why tempt the gods?

 

That is only true if the same number of rows and columns are used in both keyboard matrices, and those rows and columns are in the same order in the keyboard connector, or you might end up with shorted rows/columns, missing ones because not all pins are used, and on keyboards with backlight you can end up with PWM/power into a keyboard pin and either fry the keyboard matrix or the EC.

 

@senso Um no. It doesn't work that way. Think of a keyboard as a separate powered component with its own processor. There is no direct connection between individual keys and the laptop. Instead they all connect to the keyboards processor which transmits a byte for each keystroke. So in a way they are ALL compatible. They all output bytes. Its just that the meaning of any byte number depends on the keyboard. That because what a particular key does depends on the language. So the only difference between two keyboards of the same model but different languages is the printing on the keys and the entries in the translation table.

It's a very basic system that has lasted many years. That and standardisation makes it very cheap. And it works perfectly so nobody is going to mess with it.

 

Nope..

Take one apart if you want, a laptop keyboard is just a column/row matrix that is decoded by the EC, there is no electronics in a laptop keyboard, at all, and they are all different because there is no standard.

 

https://computer.howstuffworks.com/keyboard2.htm

There you go.

You, I think, were under the impression that each key pressed 2 switches to give a location on a matrix. Not so. Only one switch and LOTS of evidence on the net for it. Each key has a unique return path on the circuit board that backs the keys.

Video showing single switch and no matrix:


If the signals sent were not consolidated by a processor of sorts then the flat cable linking keyboard to laptop would need somewhere in the order of 100 or more separate lines. One for each key plus any lights, earths, at least one power. Plenty of pictures on the net showing far less than that.

Keyboard connector picture:
http://www.laptoprepair101.com/fix-broken-keyboard-connector-on-laptop-motherboard/

 

@BlameTheEx

OK, that was awesome. That means that in theory I could swap out the circuit board from one keyboard to the other one and get it working? Of course easier said than done, i once tried it and the circuit board was not as flexible as the one in the video and fell apart...

but it is good to know that it can be done, I might try it with the bad keyboards I have at home just for fun....

Cheers
Jorge

 

@ jorgehumberto

No sadly it doesn't.

There is still the matter of the flat cable inside leading from the laptop. If not model specific there are bound to be different versions. Extra lines dependent on the number of LED's and such.

You lucked out to get as far as you did.

If you play around you are bound to short something out and then you have a dead laptop.

 

@BlameTheEx

Well, in my case, the LED and keyboard circuit have different flat cables and both are compatible with the laptop connectors. At least the backligth works nicely

Many thanks for the explanations!

Cheers
Jorge

 

That "circuit" is the EC in a laptop!

A desktop keyboard as the circuit because it then talks either PS/2 or USB, even today some laptops expose the keyboard as a PS/2 interface between the EC and the chipset...

But, ok, if you dont believe that a laptop keyboard is made in a row column matrix(like every other keyboard on the planet), be happy with that..

 

Hi @senso

Ok, so what you mean is that an external laptop has a circuit interface between the keyboard matrix and the motherboard/EC, while a laptop keyboard works exactly the same, but there is no such interface and the matrix interfaces directly with the EC?

Cheers
Jorge

 

I had the decency to not just assume you was wrong and I was right. I went and checked.
Sometimes when I check I find I was the idiot. Then I admit it and life goes on.
Check my posts and you will find it true.

Not this time.
Have the decency to read my explanation and check the evidence I posted.

 

I worked for Asus, MSI and Lenovo repair center for 4 years doing component level repairs..
I have worked with hundreds of SKU's, there is NOT a single laptop with any chip doing matrix decoding in the keyboard itself..

 

@senso

And let's see. How many keyboards did you dismantle to see the guts?

Well, If you did your job right that would be none. They are sealed units. If they don't work you take em out and replace them.

You are blustering because you can't refute the evidence.

That job doesn't require you to ether look or know.

 

Can't speak for @senso , but I do take them apart now and then and senso is correct:

The membrane is the only thing left left when you strip all the non-electronic components:

Spoiler: keyboard membrane, top view

Spoiler: keyboard membrane, bottom view

As you can see there are no smd components anywhere. Hitting a switch closes one or more connections. The 'more' is important here; there's too few pins on the cable to register each key individually, but combining even just two pins gives you 253 possibilities. That is, there's 24 pins on this particular keyboard and if we discount two of them for grounds then we have 22 pins to close singly plus another 231 for, say, active 1+2, active 1+3, ... active 11+21 ... etc etc. Since there's 256 possible scancodes to map (16 bits) that means we have a sufficient number of combinations (some are reserved and do not decode to a character or operator).

The translation from the pin combination is the job of the embedded controller, as mentioned before by senso and Khenglish. The protocol it uses after the translation is either PS/2 or USB which only need 4 pins for communication, a nice improvement over the 24 we started with. We're talking about laptop keyboards, of course; a stand-alone PS/2 or USB keyboard also uses an EC (keyboard controller, rather), except it's embedded in the device.

The kb backlight has a separate cable. I always unplug these in order to permanently disable the backlight.

 

Hi @t456

Thanks for the detailed explanation. So, in summary, the decoding is made at the BIOS/EC level and not on the keyboard. To be able to use a different keyboard, I would have to code its translation into the EC. But are there more than one "dictionary" on the EC? I ask because it appears that the keyboard I bought is for MSI GT60/70/etc laptops, but these also accept the Clevo P170EM stock keyboard?

Cheers
Jorge