Question concerning 65nm Intel processors

I have a wierd-ish question which is sort of about laptops, but then not really, so bear with me please while I explain myself!

I want to buy an Xbox 360 now, as it seems to have a truckload of great games, has some interesting multimedia capabilities, and is reasonably priced. However, I am put off by two things: 1) The reliability issues it has had and 2) The noise it makes, which while infinitely tolerable, is undesireable all the same.

Now, Microsoft are supposedly revising the console's production in mid-2007. More specifically, they are changing from a custom built 90nm Intel processor to a 65nm one. In theory, I would have thought that this would lead to a more durable and quieter machine, as less heat will be emitted internally in the revised machines, thereby requiring less cooling fan power, and QED, vastly reduced decibels.

And that is the question this thread is posing. I am not too knowledgeable on the world of laptops, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that consumer laptops saw a switch to 65nm technology in mid 2006. If this is in fact the case, I would like to ask you all, how much of a real-world effect do you feel this had in the laptop world, vis-a-vis noise and heat, and do you feel such effects, if any, would likely be replicated in the Xbox 360?

The implication is obvious. Of course, an Xbox 360 and a laptop are two vastly different machines, so what goes for one may not necessarily go for the other. But it's an important question for me to ask, as I am desperately undecided as to whether I should buy an Xbox 360 now, or wait till July-November, when the revised machines are on the market.

As I said, I really want an Xbox 360 now, but not while they're failing left and right, and out-performing my vacuum cleaner in the noise stakes! And if you suggest that the switch to a 65nm processor will placate my fears in future, then wait I shall do.

Thank you very much for your opinions, and a Happy New Year to you all!

 

I have an Xbox 360, I got it three month after they were released.

Every here and their it does freeze or crash, but not often as long as you keep adequate ventilation space around the console, I recommend at least 1 1/2 feet especially behind it but general a clear space around the whole Xbox.

It isn't that loud at all in my opinion and the game's audio make it not noticeable.

Personally I love the Xbox 360 and it has some great games.

I have Gears of War....undoubtedly one of the best video games ive every played and playing it in HD at 720p makes it all the more awesome!

 

They don't use Intel CPU's.
It is rumoured that they will switch to 65nm (IBM) CPU's, yes, but as far as I know, there's been no hard info on when it'll happen, or what effects it'll have.
However, all other things being equal, a 65nm CPU will produce less heat than a 90nm one. The problem is that all other things may not be equal.
And even if it does produce less heat, that may not make a difference in noise, if they decide to keep the same cooling system.

With consoles, there's one reason, and one reason only, to switch to 65nm from 90nm. Cost reduction. A 65nm CPU is smaller, and thus cheaper to manufacture, which means a bigger profit for MS.
If it also reduces noise, that's fine, but don't fool yourself into believing that this is one of the goals with the change.

About the comparison to laptops, it's invalid, because with laptops, the switch to 65nm wasn't *just* that. It also added a lot of changes and improvements to the CPU design itself, which meant better performance but at the cost of some of the heat savings.

With the 360 though, they have to stay with the *exact* same performance, because console games tend to rely on this being constant.

Are they? I know there were some issues just around launch, but that was a year ago. Are there *still* any stability issues?

Keep in mind that even if they haven't switched to 65nm yet, they still make gradual improvements to the console all the time, to increase stability or reduce noise or whatever else they can fix. So I'd say that unless you can find evidence to the contrary, a 90nm system bought now will be exactly as stable as a 65nm one bought 9 months from now.

Also, the CPU isn't the only component that produces heat. If they still use the same GPU, it might not matter that the CPU is switched to 65nm.

 

I thought noise issues from Consoles were more often related to the optical drive than the cooling? Is this the case with the 360?

 

@ jalf

Clearly you're not entirely convinced it'll make much difference then?

To be honest, I would be highly dissapointed if the 65nm machine didn't yield improved performance for two reasons:

1. I REALLY want the noise levels reduced!
2. It would mean I've waited months for something I could have been enjoying NOW

You bring to bear some points I hadn't before considered, like that they may not feel compelled to change the cooling system anyway, or that the GP may just as easily be the cause of the heat it produces.

This means, quite simply, that any delay on my part would simply be me playing the guessing game, and assuming that things *might* improve in future revisions. That's a dangerous game, as technology improves so fast, you can never stay ahead of the curve for long. A year ago, my household went wireless. A year later, suddenly wireless n is the up and coming standard, and g looks like yesterdays news. I had never even HEARD of wireless n this time last year!

So I guess that's the question. Since you cannot guarantee that future Xbox revisions will be any quieter than the current models, do I buy one now and start enjoying next generation gaming right away, or wait, in the hope that Microsoft will fix all the issues I have with the machines build quality, even though there is zero guarantess that they will...



PS. Just an 'interesting' story. With the original Xbox, there were many complaints years ago about the Thompson DVD drive models, with people saying it failed too easily. Didn't stop me from getting an Xbox, or enjoying it hugely...until it failed exactly 3 years after I bought it! I'm not sure if I had a Thompson drive or not, but it stopped working all the same. Thing is, I just bought a new one (which is on beside me as I type) because I really do like the Xbox, and for all the talk at the time of Thompson drives and whatnot, it hasn't changed the fact that I've had many great gaming moments with Xbox since 2002.

 

To be honest, that's my suspision with the 360, because when it's playing an original Xbox game, or a DVD, or is just sitting in the dashboard (desktop), it's relatively silent. It's only when you put in an XBOX 360 disk, that the thing explodes into life noise-wise. And it's the disk drive that I personally notice getting louder. So you might be right, and all my 65nm questions are irrelevant. I'm only going on what I read in gaming forums, and everybody seems to blame the fans. But personally, I could've sworn it was the DVD drive...

 

Nope, I'm not convinced. Because Microsoft isn't making that switch to lower noise. They're doing it to reduce costs.
Also, there's no guarantee that 65nm chips will run cooler than 90nm ones. (Look at the P4 Prescott)

Careful with your choice of words. If there's one thing it definitely won't yield, it's improved performance... It might give the same performance at a lower heat output, but it won't give you *better* performance.

Yup, pretty much. Keep in mind though, that 65nm isn't the only revision they're making. Like any console manufacturer, they're constantly improving and tweaking the console. A system you buy today will be a lot more stable than one bought at launch, for example.
So even if 65nm doesn't bring any improvements in noise levels, other improvements may do so (or may have done so already. Have anyone tested a newly manufactured 360 vs a year old one?)

But they never really advertise these tweaks. They just happen on the fly from month to month. And of course, the old consoles are still being sold, so even after they switch to 65nm, you may still end up buying a 90nm version.

What makes you think they haven't already fixed those issues? I haven't heard of any problems with stability or anything else (other than noise) for ages. Sounds to me like they've fixed it already.

About the source of the noise? Hard to say, especially since I don't have a 360. I spent a month at a place where we had one though, and my impression was that the fans were noticeably audible. Of course when the dvd drive spins up you can hear that as well, but the constant whirring of the fans was what I found noticeable.

(Keep in mind that in the dashboard, both the GPU and CPU are pretty much idling. When you insert a game then yes, the dvd drive spins up, but the GPU and CPU also kicks into full speed, which would make the fans have to work harder and so produce more noise)

 

One of my old ps2s had a nice noisy optical drive, which is what made me think of that.

How much noise are we talking here? Desktop level? Laptop with fans on full?

 

Let me put it this way. I've just had a listen to a recently-bought 2Ghz Athlon processor/1GB RAM desktop running Full Spectrum Warrior, and a 5 year old PlayStation 2 running Final Fantasy X. Compared the Xbox 360 I recently listened to playing Dead Rising, they sounded silent. I could still hear them, but it was a low noise, more like a steady hum, that definitely didn't piss me off, whereas the Xbox 360's noise just kind of annoys me. Slightly, it has to be said, but you can audibly hear it between rooms, if the doors are left open, and the surrounding area is relatively quiet.

 

@ jalf

My 'new' Xbox is noticeably quieter than my older one (which has long since been rubbished). Not by a million miles now. It just seems to run smoother, and with a slightly less audible hum. So it's true what you say about them making slight tweaks over time, because I definitely noticed it with my Xbox. Maybe I should just take the plunge and go with an Xbox 360 now?

Where concerns reliability, I'm still hearing reports of newer machines faulting, but the problem does generally seem to be lessening, and confined to launch period machines in the main.

And as for the noise...sigh... It's like you say, I have zero guarantees that machines 10 months down the line will be any quieter. Maybe I should just get a 360 now, and if they're any less noisy in 10 months time, trade in then.....

 

Put it like this, I guess. If you buy one now, you'll be able to enjoy it much longer than you would if you were to buy it a year from now.

I'd say go for it. If you think it's worth buying, buy it.
(I'd love to grab one, but can't really justify buying a new expensive console atm)

 

That is true. As I said, for all the talk of faulty Xbox DVD drives a couple of years ago, didn't stop me from buying one the year it came out, and I had a lot of great use out of it, playing the likes of Halo, Project Gotham Racing, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Splinter Cell. Funnily enough, my Xbox did stop working almost two years ago.....the DVD drive failed! But I just got a new one 2 weeks later, and am using it till this day. So I guess I'll take the same approach with the Xbox 360, and get one in the near future.