Should I limit my options to Haswell?

Hey, I'm in the market to get a 14-15 inch ultrabook, and I'd also like to it to last a few years. Because of that, I would like to get one with a Haswell processor, but this really limits my options. The question is, is it all that important? I'm not gaming (mostly programming, web), but I'd really like good battery life, which I hear Haswell is supposed to help with. Is this true, or will I get basically the same battery life from 3rd gen machines?

Thanks for your help.

 

You get maybe 1-2 more hours than IB, 5% more CPU performance and 40% stronger integrated graphics. However Haswell is known to run hotter.

Tbh if you find a nice deal on an IB laptop, then go for it.

 

Haswell brought back undervolting. Undervolting = Buy over anything else afaic. Especially with XTU automated dynamic cpu undervolt, really a piece of cake.

 

I would not be purchasing 'old tech' right now: Haswell all the way.


Jobine - where do you see that Haswell 'runs hotter'? You are the only one that I've seen repeatedly state that...

 

I'm curious, did Intel shrink the die are again with Haswell? I can't remember off the top of my head. That would technically make Haswell run a tad hotter at the same TDP, I wouldn't necessarily say that the increase is significant. A lower surface are and same amount of heat generated means that all else being equal (identical cooling system), the die with the smaller are would run hotter.

Note, I'm talking from a purely technical point of view, not a practical one.

 

Yes, there was a die shrink and that wasn't a good thing. I know the small die fanboys will take issue with that comment, but it is undeniable that this creates challenges as far as thermal management is concerned.

Whether it should be considered "good" would depend on personal perspective and individual preference. Compared to something really crappy like an ARM or Atom processor, the choice is a no-brainer. Haswell is definitely superior to something lame like that. Embracing Haswell on the basis that it is new tech is not a good idea unless you believe that new is more important than better. It also depends on what technology you are replacing with a Haswell and how you plan to use it. It's all relative based on personal perspective and intended use.

I tend to look at everything through the eyes of a performance enthusiast. I have been using 6 different machines with Haswell processors and I have nothing nice to say about Haswell architecture. Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge are both much better products for desktop and mobile CPUs. They perform better and run cooler if your goal is having a high performance system. Haswell is OK for a low performance system like an Ultrabook, netbook or tablet, but it even runs a bit warm with low clock speeds in that kind of environment. Clock-for-clock, it has potential to perform slightly better than Sandy or Ivy, but it has limitations based on its performance capacity. Haswell processors do poorly with overclocking and they are cursed by throttling problems. Some of the throttling is by design, which is not appreciated by those that value performance. The integrated voltage regulators is also a horrible engineering decision from the perspective of a performance enthusiast. The FIVR design combined with a smaller die complicates thermal management even further.

Anyone that hasn't seen (or personally experienced) complaints about Haswell running hot is either not paying attention or has a different agenda (i.e., battery life and/or small form factor being more important than performance). It's often hard to tell from the hardware reviews written by Kool-Aid drinking "yes-men" what is good if your primary goal is performance. They often get too caught up in the hype of new tech and miss seeing the forest because of the trees.

<iframe width='853' height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FqdLpzwSDFo?rel=0" frameborder='0' allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

 

Mr. Fox,

I agree that performance will be thermally limited (due to throttling/by design) in an Ultrabook, netbook or tablet - but at the same time, those systems are not meant for a high performance workload either.

What you do gain with Haswell is good/great performance vs. anything else available today and GREAT battery life especially when used in the low load usage model most people use the systems like today.


Running 'hotter' is by design in the new chips. They can not only handle it - they are built that way on purpose (for some of the reasons you stated too).


By recommending the 'new' is recommending the 'better' in this case (as always).

When/if Broadwell systems become available in the next few months, I'll be recommending them just as much (assuming they perform as expected/reported so far, of course).


Some of your concerns (w/regards to overclocking/etc.) have no bearing on the OP's questions - nor do they impact anyone wanting an increase in performance from last year's (or older) tech.


You may not be impressed with Haswell based platforms for 'technical reasons' - but there is no denying that Haswell is the best available today if we're simply buying a system now and need it for the next few years to be as stable and reliable as possible (note: no O/C'ing, etc.).


Don't know why people get stuck on minor details - when the big picture clearly points out that the 'new' is almost always the 'better' - at least for the last half dozen years with Intel anyway.

 

I see that the opening post relates to an Ultrabook and I provided some context to the comments specifically related to that. Three of the Haswell systems I have been using are Ultrabooks and they are really nice products. My expectations of them are framed around the understanding that they are not high performance systems. But, Haswell is used for things other than Ultrabooks and tablets, and that's where the rub comes in.

A chip that runs hotter and throttles is not a minor detail. By failing to explore all there is to know, there is no "big picture" perspective. My post presents the other side of the coin. If all of the talking heads are saying "go Haswell" without any context around what to expect there are going to be more disappointed shoppers.

My post is only offered to provide balance and perspective to comments like the one above, so that people shopping for new tech can do it with both eyes wide open. Depending on what kind of product you are shopping for, Haswell might be an outstanding choice or a very bad choice. Now might not be a good time to jump on the new tech bandwagon. Many already have, some with major regrets. If you have a full size laptop or desktop with nice specs and like how well it performs, Haswell might be a downgrade depending on where you have the bar set for expectations. If you want an Ultrabook, now is a fine time to upgrade. We will have to wait and see how Broadwell turns out. Haswell might end up being better than Broadwell.

 

Haswell runs hotter because the memory controller is on the die. Even a 4770K runs hotter than a 3770K.

 

If you are building a desktop, go Ivy Bridge all the way if you are not using Integrated graphics, the 5% increase in performance is not worth the 10-15% rise in price and extra stress on the cooling system. LGA 1155 mobos are also cheaper.

As for the whole "native usb 3.0" thing, seriously, just install a driver.

 

Having a SoC (system on chip) design involves compromise. With a conglomeration of memory controller+FIVR+die shrink... something has to give and there is no way around that.

Ultrabooks are the paradigm of compromise and Haswell is well suited for that kind of product. It's not necessarily the best choice for other purposes.

 

And that's exactly why Intel chose IB over Haswell for their enthusiast CPU's.

 

What is your price-point for the Ultrabook? If you are willing to splurge on quality, I highly recommend this product. The 3200x1800 touch display is truly amazing. (I am not a fan of touch, but the display itself is amazing without regard to touch.) The machined aluminum lid and palm rest, along with the carbon fiber base is impeccable. It also offers the option of switchable discrete graphics (GT 750M) and it is capable of gaming with acceptable FPS with medium settings if you ever have a hankering for the occasional gaming binge. I have seen about 8.5 hours of battery life on this system. The 13" and 15" variatons with exclusively Haswell graphics and 1080p should eek out more battery run time if that trumps everything else for your purposes, and they are less expensive. This is a very high quality product and being that it is intended a nice PC alternative to a Macbook, it's not inexpensive.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you on this... 150%.

 

Mr. Fox said:

 

Yeah I distinctly remember Logan saying how hot Haswell runs in that Tek Syndicate video, and it's been corroborated by other reviewers as well. Can you imagine the furnace that 8-core Haswell-E will be when it arrives next year?

 

And still no link?

 

You want me to spoon feed you?

 

Yes.



...

 

If the OP was the only person reading this thread we could dispense with everything else. But, then there would not be a meaningful discussion. Discussion is one of the purposes for which our forums are intended. However, that's not the case and others are reading the content of this thread. The title alone will be an attraction other readers. Making carte blanche statements can be very misleading to people with a low level of technical knowledge. Plus, it never hurts to have all the facts before spending money. There is nothing that needs to be hidden or hushed. Having a narrow point of view consistently contributes to consumer misinformation and disappointment. That's one of the problems with reliance on "professional reviews" rather than feedback from actual product users with more time and experience using the product(s).

 

So then, you agree that for the OP - the Haswell platform is the way to go then? lol...

 

Exactly, and that's where you come in. :thumbsup:

But when even the paid-off reviewers have nothing great to say about Haswell, you know something is up...

 

So many posts with no substance...


(where are the links to prove your points)?

 

not to derail OP's question, and taking into consideration that this is a notebook site, would you say Mr. Fox that this applies to the desktop line of Haswell processors as well? Obviously there are the same architecture/design; just curious if it more pronounced on the mobile chips since they reside in much closer quarters as compared to a desktop?

 

@tilleroftheearth - Best choice? For an Ultrabook or tablet, yes. I already posted that more than once. I even posted links to a couple of products that I have personally used and highly recommend.

For anything else, absolutely not. Haswell, in my personal opinion, is not the best choice for anything else except for ultra-portable low power systems.

@Ajfountains - I cannot speak from personal experience with desktops because I have been a laptop overclocker/gamer too long. My last self-built monster was back when a 3.0GHz P4 with HT was the best CPU money could buy. My career changed and began to require extensive travel, so spending money on building a beast desktop wasn't intelligent for me... seldom home enough to use it.

But, I do have friends that are enthusiasts with desktops (johnksss is one them) and I spend time on HWBOT. Based on everything I see and hear about it, I would definitely avoid purchasing a Haswell desktop CPU. I would only consider a K or X series Sandy or Ivy-E processor. You are correct... they are the same architecture (unfortunately). Even with water cooling they having throttling problems and don't hold an overclock well under load. (Some of this is mentioned in the video I posted.) Being able to overclock to 5.0GHz or more isn't much value if that clock speeds only works at an idle and collapses to 4.0GHz or less under stress.

 

In your opinion...

 

So Mr. Fox's personal negative experiences with Haswell aren't good enough for you? OK...

Uh no it's not just his opinion:

Spoiler

Intel Core i7 4770K (Haswell 4th Gen) CPU and Z87 Express Chipset Review - Power and Temperature Tests | TweakTown




LOL sensationalist article title should tell you everything you need to know: Intel Core i7-4770K CPU Review. Intel Haswell for Desktops: Ruin of Our Hopes?. Page 12 - X-bit labs




Intel Core i7-4770K Haswell 3.5GHz Quad-Core CPU Review - Page 14 of 15 - Legit ReviewsIntel Core i7-4770K CPU Overclocking

Page 3 - Haswell review: Intel’s Core i7-4770K takes over the pole position | ExtremeTech

 

Such is the bane of our existence. People come to places like this looking for opinions, and we gladly express them. Like belly buttons, most of us have one.

In this case, I think "based on my observations" and "for my own purposes" is more accurate than "my opinion" and it is only relevant to those that have the same needs or interests. I shared an opinion with Ajfountains about Haswell desktop CPUs. With respect to mobile, I am sharing my observations as a user of Sandy, Ivy and Haswell mobile processors. It's offered on face value. Readers can take it or leave it... pretty simple. Or, they can use Google and mine the information the hard way and hope they make the right choice in the end. Sifting the chaff from the wheat can be a daunting task.

 

And from that last link from Extremtech:

So, it's a better chip, except not for Mr. Fox...


That's why I said 'in his opinion'...

 

Nope. They should skip right to Broadwell-E, because Broadwell is confirmed to have the memory controller back on the mobo for some cooler temps, not to mention Broadwell's goal is to reduce LOAD power consumption instead of IDLE power consumption like Haswell.

8 core Haswell? Pffft. Grab an 8 core IB Xeon now.

 

Jobine, read the quote above your post...

What you're essentially recommending is that 640KB of RAM will be enough for 'forever'.

 

And what are your comments on said links that you were begging me to spoon feed you?

Mr. Fox has a much more valid opinion than yours because he has first-hand experience and you don't.

Except Intel won't skip Haswell-E for sure, imagine the uproar that would create. The 8 cores is very nice and it's what enthusiasts have been asking for years, but Haswell in its current state would not work very well. I wonder what changes Intel will implement in the future X99 platform to address Haswell's current problems, or if they seriously expect to sell these $600 and $1000 chips and not allow anybody to overclock them.

And yes with Broadwell the VRM is being moved back onto the mobo which should help with the temperatures, while ironically also breaking compatibility with current Haswell mobos.

 

Ahh, that's where you're wrong:

My first hand experience is that Haswell is the future (and current) champ.

That is why I'm recommending it...


The articles you linked (thank you, btw) also point to that conclusion - you just refuse to accept it.

 

You asked for links proving that Haswell runs hotter than Ivy Bridge, I complied, and now you're going off about something else?

I think I'm quite done putting up with your nonsense.

 

Very good for cash flow, LOL. With new tech one principle always applies... caveat emptor.

And, thanks for sharing. I respect your opinion based on your experience. It's from a different perspective than mine, and like mine, it doesn't apply to every conceivable scenario. But it is no more or less valid.

In what platform are you presently using Haswell? Ultrabook, tablet or something else? Maybe sharing that context will add value to the discussion.

 

And by the time all apps efficiently use AVX it will be time for a new upgrade

 

Intel pulling an Apple on this one.

 

8 core Broadwell-E.

I've owned my Haswell laptop for 3-4 months before IB-E was released.

 

??? ???

Intel's enthusiast platform has been one generation behind its mainstream one for a few years now. So just like before, Broadwell and Haswell-E will come out in the same year, followed by Skylake and Broadwell-E in the same year, etc. Haswell-E has been confirmed to have up to eight cores, no idea what Broadwell-E is going to be yet.

 

No, you're the one spouting nonsense now:

You provided the link to my comment that Haswell was not the best choice 'in Mr. Fox' opinion'.


I hope that the OP sees through this too: Haswell is the platform we want to buy today to ensure we are still somewhat competitive (performance-wise) in half a decade or so.

 

There is an opinion based upon the experience of many Haswell users that it is already not competitive performance-wise at the time of launch... is it going to grow better with age? Are we talking CPUs or wine? Are you saying your CPU is going to get faster in time or everything else is going to get progressively slower and worse in terms of performance, ultimately making Haswell look good in retrospect? I am not expressing disagreement as much as trying to grasp the rationale. I don't understand what you are trying to convey by making that statement. If the latter is true, I can certainly buy into that possibility. I expect a major dumbing down of tech on the horizon in terms of performance to accommodate the needs of anemic low-powered computing devices. We might all end up trapped in that vortex of mediocrity.

 

No, if you read the articles linked, as the O/S, programs and websites take advantage of the technologies the new platform offers, the % increase in performance will be MUCH MUCH better for Haswell based systems than anything before it.

So yes, they do get better with age (in a way; if the tech is actually implemented widely).

But more importantly; being available now, for essentially the same price point, while giving better performance, better battery life and better longevity virtue of having the 'next gen tech' inside, while IB does not; recommending anything below Haswell is simply not defendable, imo.

As for those users at time of launch that think Haswell is not competitive? Who cares about them - the facts always win out popular opinion.


(Which is why I also recommend Win8.1 x64 Pro too - it is the current epitome of modern O/S's...).

 

Whoa whoa whoa...who doesn't have a belly button? I've traveled to 3 different continents and i've seen some things man.....but seeing someone with no belly button might be the hands down winner of weird.

 

I think there are some mutants in Pripyat, Ukraine, that I would like to introduce you to.

 

If you were to recommend Haswell to a performance enthusiast I would question the logic and the soundness of that advice.

If you were to recommend it to someone that wants a low-powered device that performs decent and has good battery life I would not.

It seems that you are operating under the assumption that all consumers value the same the same things and that is where the problems come in making one-size-fits-all recommendations. I know Intel and Micro$oft probably want us to be that way, because they can make more money selling a high volume of mediocre products that are acceptable to the mainstream. But, the reality is that we are all different and find value in different things. As a performance enthusiast, I cannot express what a massive disappointment Haswell has been to me and many others in that niche. As a user of Ultrabooks, I can also say that it has not given me a reason to complain in that niche.

If you take a Procrustean approach it will only be the right thing to do some of the time. You need to use the right tool for the job to achieve good result. Haswell is the right tool for some jobs, but it's not the answer for everyone. If you try to use any tool for a purpose it is not well suited for, the end result will not be great. Some people are happy with using a Swiss Army knife. Others prefer to go out to the tool box and grab the tools best suited for the job at hand.

 

Mr. Fox,

I agree with you. Really.


I think where we diverge is on the 'performance enthusiast' part. I consider myself one. But I don't O/C my main machines on a regular basis (I have played with it though). I suppose that you consider O/C'ing 'essential'...


My assumptions here: notebook BIOS is not fully adjustable like a desktop BIOS may be. OP buys a system, turns it on (and that's it) and wants it to stay relevant for the next few years. $$$ difference between IB and Haswell is insignificant over the 4-5 years of ownership, but the improvements Haswell brings to the table now and in the future are worth 'Only' considering Haswell and nothing else.


Okay, thanks for the conversation everyone - got some shooting to do now.