Surface Pro 3 - finally a sane aspect ratio

Just wanted to get this off my chest: Finally, finally, after years and years of being offered nothing but 16x9 screens for PCs, we're returning back to sanity. For tablets in particular, 16x9 is the absolute height of stupidity. So now we have a 3x2 screen here (which is the same as 16x10.666, close to 16x11). Dare we hope for the return of 16x10 aspect ratios for laptops, too?

 

There have been example of 16:10 and 4:3 tablets, the Nexus 7 1st and 2nd gen 1280x800, 1920x1200, Kindle Fire HD with 1920x1200, iPad Retina with QXGA+. If they'll ever return to laptop screens, that is something I highly doubt.

 

I know, but none of these were running Windows.

 

At least, recent windows tablets have pretty much all moved to 16:10 which is alright. We can say that the manufacturers partially get it.

 

That is rather interesting, and good news. It's very nice to see a new 12"+ Windows laptop with a less-widescreen aspect ratio than 16:9. Hopefully this will be the start of a trend away from widescreen aspect ratios.

Have they announced the exact processors that they will be using? The Surface 2 used the i5 4200U IIRC. I'm hoping the Surface 3 will at least have the option of a full-power processor, and hopefully, also one with decent graphics. The tablet PC aspect of the Surface 2 was slick, but spec-wise it was a bit short of what I was hoping for. It is promising that they will have at least three processor options with the Surface 3.

I don't suppose the SSD and RAM is going to be user-upgradeable? That's the other thing I found non-thrilling about the Surface 2 - IIRC you couldn't just toss in a nice 750 GB hard drive if you valued space over speed.

 

I haven't seen exact specs, but they say at the high end you can get the thing with an i7, 8GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD.

Personally, I would have liked to see it even slightly larger, say 13", and I don't dig the ugly edgy shape, but overall it's a huge improvement over what they had before. I had been considering an iPad Pro (12.9") once that's out, but who knows, by the time that might be ready (next spring is my guess), a Windows 9 tablet might be preferable.

 

they are using the same minor spec bump of has well cpus available.

so the i5 4200u becomes the 4300u and so forth

 

The HP Elitepad 1000 G2 I recently bought is a 16:10 (1920x1200), 10.1" Win8 Tablet.

 

I wouldn't call 16:9 "stupid," but I think it's great that we're moving away from the one-size-fits-all approach to aspect ratios. I personally like a wider aspect ratio, like 16:9, for a device that's intended for media consumption (either games or video), and for large desktop monitors for someone like me who puts two pages side-by-side. But the market also needs more square aspect ratios for smaller productivity devices (one app at a time, or one page at a time) and for laptops and desktops meant for coding or one-page-at-a-time workflows.

Regardless of the fact that I like 16:9 in other situations, I'm glad to see it gone from a productivity tablet like the Surface Pro.

Also, since the Surface line are meant to be inspirational and lead the OEMs, hopefully OEMs will follow and start offering more Windows devices in something besides 16:9. The great thing about Windows is the broad swath of hardware choice...so why should it all have the same aspect ratio?

 

Because people like to complain. Honestly I'd take 2560x1440 (16:9) over 1920x1200 (16:10) by virtue there are hella more pixels than WUXGA. I don't think the 16:9 trend is going to end with more 16:10 tablets, one can be hopeful but that's all I can say.

 

There have been loads of non-16:9 phones and tablets already, so I have no idea why the Surface Pro 3's screen would mean anything.

 

Until phones and tablets run Windows, they don't mean anything to me either...

 

Yep, and that was exactly my point. Sure, if all you do is watch movies and play games, then 16:9 is fine. However, the Surface Pro is explicitly marketed as a tool for professionals (and comes with a price tag to match, by the way), and for a good chunk of these (other than a certain group of media professionals, perhaps), 16x9 doesn't even begin to make any sense at all. Hence the [cough] runaway success of the Microsoft Surface so far...

 

Feel free to name those loads of 16:10 Windows machines you could buy. Sure, as somebody else has mentioned, they are out there if you can find them (one HP model was mentioned, and I believe there is a Lenovo tablet like that as well), but these are really singular exceptions. The fact that most other operating systems (such as all iOS and OS X machines, incidentally) are available on different form factors is irrelevant in this context.

To me, the meaning of the appearance of this form factor means that maybe, just maybe, the PC industry might go back to designing computers that people want, rather than just cobbling together some random collection of hardware pieces that are selected with the sole purpose of minimizing cost. The ensuing race to the bottom is one reason why the PC market has been collapsing, in my opinion.

 

Well, pretty much the entirety of the Bay Trail Windows tablets are at 16:10. The Dell venue 8, the Asus vivotab 8, the Fujitsu Q584, the Thinkpad Tablet 10, the HP tablet and so on. There are still a few that are 16:9, the core i situation is mostly 16:9, but there are more than most people might think at 16:10.

 

Well photographers will be happy as the majority DSLR and other non compact camera`s use an 3:2 sensor.

John

 

Way more than you guys want to know about it I'm sure, but here's some great info:

Surface Pro 3 Discussion Thread

Specs:
Screen size: 12"
Resolution: 2160x1440 (3:2), 216ppi
Weight: 1.76lbs (800g)
Thickness: 0.36" (9.1mm)
Ports: USB 3.0, microSD, Mini DisplayPort
Cameras: 5MP / 1080p, front & rear


Configurations (Processor, RAM, Storage):

• i3 / 64GB / 4GB - 4th Gen i3-4020Y/1.5 GHz Intel HD 4200
• i5 / 128GB / 4GB - 4th Gen i5-4300U/2.9 GHz Intel HD 4400
• i5 / 256GB / 8GB - 4th Gen i5-4300U/2.9 GHz Intel HD 4400
• i7 / 256GB / 8GB - 4th Gen i7-4650U/3.3GHz Intel HD 5000
• i7 / 512GB / 8GB - 4th Gen i7-4650U/3.3GHz Intel HD 5000

Ton more info in that great guide, but that's the basics. It is same as SP1 & SP2 in that they are not user upgradeable by design to keep chassis as small as possible.

 

I've struggled with this decision now for the last couple of days - but I've decided that (sight unseen...) the SP3 is not my next move.

While everything else is at the level I want (and above) the thing that makes this a disposable system (meaning: less than 18 months worth of use out of it) is the fact that 8GB RAM is the max. I don't even know if this is 2x 4GB Sodimms inside (it does make a difference...), but capping the RAM to 8GB is the same to me as saying 'Hey! Here's your new toy... Don't get too frustrated when it runs out of steam just when you're warming it up'.


The 512GB SSD is a great option, Win8.1 Update 1 almost seals the deal by itself, the 2160x1440 display makes me salivate with anticipation and the 12" size will make me look sexy too (lol...)...

But 8GB RAM? Possibly single channel? MS - come on, we're not pre-schoolers anymore. We grew up together (we know what you know). This system is a Ferrari with Walmart tires on it and third world gasoline in it's tank.

You can do a smoke show, you can get some speed and you can even impress me (at least initially) just parked by the curb - but in the end; all you get is another glimpse of how good these system can/should be.

What brought on this revelation?

I was installing a 1TB EVO for a client yesterday and couldn't believe how slow the system felt (i7 4702 QC, 8GB RAM, Intel 180GB SSD). I was sure something was wrong (I told him to return the system asap...). Then I decided to see if the RAM (1x 8GB Sodimm) was the issue and I installed my notebook's RAM modules (2x 8GB Sodimms).

The system came alive and was what I expected it to be. Even my client looking over my shoulder could see the improvement (from boot up).

Client wasn't too impressed that those 2x 8GB Sodimms were close to $200 though... but we did try another configuration (at this point we had 4 computers in pieces... lol...): 1x 8GB Sodimm and 1x 4GB Sodimm modules in the new system I was setting up.

The responsiveness of the system was greatly improved over the single 8GB Sodimm module and the client said it was good enough (it was hard for me to not close up the system with two identical sticks though).


Moral of the story? MS, Intel and everyone else with access to spare parts knows this: the platform's productivity is not made up of only the cpu's prowess - it is the CPU+RAM combination that makes a system really perform (and to do this; maximize the memory channels used and maximize the capacity of the memory itself all while using the fastest supported Sodimm's available).


If a brand new setup can feel more than 2x faster with another stick of RAM (~$40) why don't they offer it?

I'll tell you why: they want us to spend another $1K+ in less than a year when SP4 is introduced.

And you know what? I won't buy that either unless DDR4 16GB+ RAM (in a 2x XGB configuration) is offered on it too (and we'd better have 1TB+ M.2 SSD's with it also by then).


I was and still am more than impressed with the SP3 - almost blinded by it actually. Glad I got a late night call from my client last night and learned again (what I already know) is important: a balanced system is the system to buy. If it ships in an unbalanced state; no problem - fix it. If you can. SP3 can't be fixed - it ships broken, obsolete and still compromised for my uses and expectations.



Microsoft: I don't buy pretty. I buy tools to last more than a year at most. Please build what I (and I'm sure others) need. You're so close, I can taste it.

 

Will have to disagree with ya there Tiller... have you actually used a Surface Pro device? They are quite snappy and just as fast as any comparable ultrabook/laptop. Instant bootup and no lag that I've run across unless I'm trying to load up the latest AAA shooter at 1080p.

If you have a particular need where you have to have 16GB, sure it's a limiting factor, but I've never run into a scenario where 8GB wasn't plenty sufficient for mobile computing needs. Heck, I don't even think I've needed more than 8GB in my desktop replacement.

 

Need? Yeah; PS CS6, LR5.4, IE11 (XX tabs) - concurrently. 16GB is where any one of those programs start to come alive. 8GB RAM is like being in a prison where you can see the paint fade on the walls - at 32GB+ is where I feel I'm earning the money I charge.

I've used the v1 and v2 SP's - was also tempted at that time too; but the screen size was wrong (too small).

And as I just posted above; 8GB makes for a very laggy system, ime (of course; I should have tried 2x 4GB Sodimms to be sure that it wasn't just Dual Channel making a difference in snappiness too...).

Either way; as has been suggested in this thread; if I tether my cameras to this device I would want at least one of the suites (all would be installed, of course) to do something with the RAW files - and even for a single program and a single RAW image I could make the SP3 choke with the manipulations I need to do for some of my clients.


I appreciate that the system is snappy and usable enough for you - but it is nowhere near the goal that MS set for itself:

See:
AnandTech | Microsoft Surface 2014 Event: Live Blog




Especially when Adobe is soon to release a touch optimized PS CC version for the SP3:

From the same link above.



For completeness:

If Microsoft is actually reading my critique of their newest baby: the WACOM pen has to come back. A battery operated pen is so 1970's... (let alone 1/4 to 1/8th of the pressure sensitivity of the better Wacom's).

And please: include at least one sku with ALL the different parts included in one package!!!!!

 

Let me know when you find a 9 mm thick device that weighs 1.75lbs with 32GB of RAM

 

Regarding the RAM, at least part of the fault lies with Intel - whereas Ivy Bridge supported 32 GB across the board, Haswell ULT only supports 16 GB when using regular DDR3 and a mere 8 GB with LPDDR3.

Then again, Intel probably saw it as simply removing an unused feature, because I'm not aware of any IVB devices that had a U-series CPU and more than 16 GB of RAM...

 

For me, at least, the Surface Pro 2 (and soon Pro 3) has been an absolutely fantastic device. Before I settled on the Pro 2, with the 512GB ssd, I was carrying around an Elitebook 8470p with 16GB Vengeance ram, Samsung 840 SSD and a Quad core CPU that I'd grabbed from eBay along with a Windows tablet (I've owned a LOT of them). Now, you might think, 'how could he change from a Quad to a simple core i5 that hits 2.6GHz if you're lucky?' Basically I got sick of it all.

I, me, this person here just simply wanted a machine that would, more or less, do it all. Sure the Pro 2 and Pro 3 are limited to 8GB of ram but the heaviest thing I do/did was run a couple of VMWare machines. Yep... All my dev stuff is within a virtual machine and although they're not the total big boy versions, Corel Videostudio and Dreamweaver/Fireworks etc work like a dream. Do I miss 16GB of ram? Yes but ONLY when I want to run, possibly, more than two VMs. Other than that the SPro 2 HAS replaced a quad core laptop.

This machine is a light laptop/tablet hybrid so if you DO want a heavy lifting thing there are PLENTY of laptops out there. All in all I've pre-ordered the i7-4650u - HD 5000 - 256GB model and I'm going to be in HEAVEN. 8GB is enough for me. (Front facing speakers - FINALLY!)

 

IF they can give us a 3:2 10" surface eventually, then, I'll be sold.

 

No doubt I'll be recommending the SP3 to a lot of my clients (even though I know they won't consider it right now).

If I can make an Asus T100TA work for some of my uses - I'm sure the SP3 would work for a lot more of my uses too.

But I would still need to bring another 'real' machine along with me either way. And right now; the T100TA is much lighter (if we need both systems with keyboards).


When RAM is actually needed; The 8GB RAM limit is too harsh to consider at this time (and it will only get worse going forward...). Having the option to spend less than half the time doing a task for a mere $100 (10%) is not an option but a matter of life and death (i.e. profit).

Again; great step forward Microsoft... now, build one for me (and I don't care if it is only 9mm thick either).

 

I don't need a new convertible right now, but if I did, I'd get the SP3 without blinking. Very, very well done product.

 

Any "Swype" type input yet? It's the best input method since the mouse. Although, dayum, $1549 for i7/8GB/256GB and $1949 for i7/8GB/512GB???

$400 more for 512GB over 256GB? Not to mention nickel and dime you for keyboard and pen tether, both of which should be included.

The i5/8gb/256GB seems like the best deal for $1299.

 

Yep, that was the sweet spot with the SP2 (see my sig ), and I'd agree is as well for the SP3. It's a heck of a lot of power in a 9mm package that weighs 1.75 lbs. Unfortunately, tech hasn't evolved enough yet for me (SP2 was released 6 months ago lol) to be too excited about the SP3 (same Haswell guts as the SP2), but if they make a SP4 with Broadwell, I'll sure be ready! :thumbsup:

SP3 is definitely for those that weren't sold by the original design and wanted something with a bigger screen and a more lap friendly design. A lot to like for sure, I look forward to playing with one in store, but will be passing this round.

 

Just shows you how expectations can differ: I played around with a Surface Pro 2, and I found it completely unusable, period. Of course, a big part of that is the ridiculously small, for me, screen size: I need reading glasses for any reasonable font size anyway, but even with glasses, if I scale things up to a size that makes things comfortable for me, the 10" screen is simply far too small for me, and doesn't hold enough content. Of course, even the 12" of the SP3 still seem a bit small to me, and for me the sweet spot between portability and readability is probably at about 13".

Other than that, I still feel these Surface tablets from Microsoft sport a fantastically unappealing design, to avoid stronger words, such as "plain ugly". I hate the sharp edges and corners, but of course the idea is to match the equally ugly new Windows logo. Add to that the stigma of Windows 8, and you end up with a proposition that's tenuous at best. In addition, I'll wait for Intel's new Broadwell chipsets in any case, which with their 15nm process (compared to the 22nm Haswells) should bring some noticeable advances. By the time those will be available, Windows 9 will be out, and if we're really lucky, the new OS might even be acceptable. Who knows, maybe somebody will be smart enough to figure out that thin, light gray fonts on a white background are, shall we say, somewhat suboptimal as far as readability is concerned, at least for a good portion of the kind of professionals who can afford these tablets

 

I for one would welcome more 16:10 laptops, but isn't the reason we all ended up with 16:9 everywhere in the first place is because of consumer apathy? The OEMs saw the consumers on the whole weren't complaining that they went to 16:9 so to make things cheaper, they all cut their glass at 16:9. A lot of people probably didn't even realize that their current laptop was wider than their previous one and they had to scroll more than before.

With tablets, meany people were pretty vocal about how strangely elogated it looked in portrait mode. You won't hold your laptop in portrait mode so it wouldn't have the same problem.

 

Windows Phone 8.1 now has swype-style typing. It's not part of Windows 8.1.1, so it won't be on the SP3 at launch, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was on its way, maybe part of Windows 8.1.2.

 

I empathize. Took me a few days to get used to the 10.1", 1920 x 1200 display of the ElitePad 1000 G2 which is somewhat comparable to the Surface Pro 2. Just not as powerful. I played around with the DPI trying various settings and then seeing how various programs took to the settings. As it turns out, the default DPI setting of 150% that it shipped with is the best all around compromise.

Would I like a 13" at the same thickness, weight, and reso? You bet!

But so far, my main use case of OneNote with pen input is working out very well on this 10.1" tablet. I image it would work out even better on a larger screen.

LOL. This bothered me as well which made me seek out alternatives which came down to the HP Elitepad or the Fujitsu Stylistic. Since the Fujitsu only comes in white, it lost the #1 spot for me. Otherwise, it's a great unit and if it came down to that or the Surface Pro2, then I'd be a happy Fujitsu owner.

I want to blame Apple's notorious litigious nature for the sharp angles of the Surface Pros. But truth be told, we desperately need patent reform. So as they say, "don't hate the player, hate the game."

Never noticed it before until you mentioned it. It's not so bad though. Definitely livable. As for Win8, this is where it shines and what it was made for - tablets. Even so, I installed "Classic Start Menu." LOL. And lovin' it.

LOL. I'll tell you a story; when I first got the new Office, I went off from my peers, crouched down and cried. All the while, looking about myself and around to make sure no one saw me. And to my surprise, I heard echoing cries in the background. So shocked, I got up to see where the sound of weeping was coming from. I staggered, weak from soul crushing disappointment and found the epicenter of the lamentations. My peers where huddled in a group hug, consoling one another over the new, eye torturing, mind shagging, spitefully brilliant light pastel themes. One especially aggrieved soul called for the head of IT on a pike for his having uninstalled the previous version of Office. A very "Lord of Flies" descent into mob democracy ensued. It was a low point in the organization.

We're all over it now, of course. We've learned to live with the "Dark Grey" theme. Albeit with the display brightness turned down while wearing Firm issued RayBans.

Sometimes you have to have a Marine's spirit and learn to make do.

 

I really, really like the the aesthetics of the hardware design. But I also like the hard edges and angular styling of post-barrel-hinge VAIOs. It's a pretty subjective issue at the end of the day.

The default white theme of Office 2013 is atrocious. But I like it with the dark grey theme. Now if only I could figure out how to prevent it from defaulting to "reading mode" (aka "distort complex formatting mode") when I open email attachments...

 

Lordy lordy, that would be awesome. It's been a godsend on my smartphone. I still prefer a tactile keyboard but that at least makes it manageable. I stopped hunt and peck typing 30 years ago... and that's what on screen keyboards force you to do... :/

 

We see things eye-to-eye on this one.

I like the story, even though it might be somewhat embellished...
Seriously, however, such details can be important. I may be sitting in a meeting where millions of dollars depend on me being able to quickly find some crucial piece of information while decisions are being made. For this to be possible, anything that detracts from the clarity of the on-screen representations on my screen is a serious disadvantage. The kids who came up with those idiotic interface designs that clearly put form over function should be fired on the spot. Every single one of these idiots. Along with the fools who allowed those decisions to make it to the final product.

As far as Office 2013 is concerned, yep, that's a complete disaster. And it only starts with the issues of interface design. Incidentally, who was the cretin that decided that we're now going to use all uppercase lettering in the interface? What's worse, much worse, is that functionality has been crippled, such as the fact that Outlook email stores now cannot be searched from within the Windows Search facility anymore. Of course, that capability has been eliminated in Windows 8 generally, but with Office 2013 it's also gone in Windows 7.

But, hey, who wants to do any real work on a computer anymore anyway? Let's just all watch movies on those 16x9 screens. They're great for that. Sheesh...

 

Yes, that is certainly true. In this case it's somewhat comparable to my beef with the design of Cadillac cars, which, to me, is absolutely, mind-bogglingly ugly. I really wouldn't want to be found dead in one of those things. However, I do know that this "edgy" design has been quite successful, it is certainly distinctive, and clearly lots of people like it. What can I do? Well, I'll simply never buy one of these. Same with the Surface.

 

Ironic that you mention Caddy. I love recent Cadillac designs, inside and out (second-gen CTS and forward).

 

Yep, that's what I would have expected based on you liking the design of the Surface, which is why I brought up the Cadillac example. Well, different strokes for different folks...

 

Lol, good example there Pirx... I love the Surface line, had a SP1 and picked up a SP2 at launch, couldn't be happier with the devices (well, other than constant quest for more power ).... but wouldn't you know it, I drive a Cadillac ATS

 

My only beef with Cadillac's recent designs is that I like my cars like I like my UIs... chromeless

 

Here's a good video showing the inside design of the new SP3... worth a watch if you are interested in the tech side of these devices.

Tiller, he does specifically say it's dual channel ram, as was the SP2 (and I dare say the SP1 but I don't have one to verify), so that's at least one of your concerns avoided :thumbsup:

I'm impressed with that liquid filled heatsink/fan assembly... sure looks cool ha, will be curious to see how well it works.

 

Nice. Except laptop heatsinks are liquid/gas filled. Odd how the hot air disperses INTO the device instead of out of the device. Looks like an mSATA too.

 

It's a standard heat pipe system, which uses both convection and phase change for heat transfer. Heat enters the system at one end, and exits at the other. The hot air does take up heat leaving the device via the cooling fins. Used in pretty much all laptops for the last 10 years at least in cases where significant heat fluxes need to be handled.

 

The important part is that the fans draws in cool air. given the low overall TDP, the hot air shouldn't be too hot as to be harmful to other components. Conservation of mass will do the rest and ensure that the hot air exits the device. I'd bet it exits close to the fan intake though and some cooling capacity may be lost there, but Ms probably decided it was an acceptable tradeoff or there is an exhaust I missed somewhere.

Pirx is right, it's the exact same concept for cooling that has been used for quite a while, The execution is slightly different, that's all.

 

I guess we were saying the same thing. It's nothing new, it's just that the airflow is opposite of what you'd see/expect from such a device.

But tijo is probably right, low TDP may make the heat flow inside the device not much of an issue, but it just seems like it would heat up the entire device. The i5 and i7 U CPU's are 15W TDP but that doesn't necessarily mean low temperatures. I know the i5-4200U in my Vaio Pro 11 can get quite toasty and it draws air in from bottom and out the side like a traditional laptop. But I'm sure they know what they're doing.

I may sell my Vaio Pro for this though. Seems a lot more practical... well except for the price... $1300 + $130 for type cover. Got my Vaio Pro 11 for $700. This is essentially twice the price, granted my Pro has only 128GB SSD + 4GB RAM, but not sure 256GB SSD and 8GB is worth $700+, not to mention what can I sell my Vaio Pro for?

edit:

Based on this review: http://pocketnow.com/2014/06/03/microsoft-surface-pro-3-review

It does state: " Also, on several occasions during our testing, the back of the Surface Pro 3 got quite hot. A look at the task manager usually showed that this was caused by a background process installing updates, but other CPU-intensive activities will heat the device just as readily. For example, rendering and editing the video review above would get the fan to turn on."

 

But what you guys missed was how cool that fan assembly looks... It's a shame it's hidden inside.

If I wasn't still enjoying my SP2 I'd get one of these for sure. As it stands, I'll be looking forward to the SP4.

 

You must have gotten the VAIO Pro on sale...it's base price is well above $700. And it doesn't seem fair to compare a sale price on product A with the list price of product B, particularly when product B is significantly higher spec than product A (much larger screen surface area, more powerful, larger SSD, thinner, lighter).

 

I agree, just that personally, not sure if it makes much sense. Otherwise reasonable pricing... and it was $800 not $700: http://forum.notebookreview.com/son...wners-lounge-svp11-2013-a-19.html#post9582056