The new SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News and Advice)

I'm going to explain SSDs as best as possible from what information I gathered.

Writes are slow!! This is a fundamental problem, don't deny it!

How do the manufacturers go around the problem??

They use combination of caches and an advanced controller to try to mitigate the problem. The slowdown ALWAYS occurs after every block on an SSD drive has been written to once and when it needs to write again. It needs to delete before writing and SSDs delete in blocks, which consists of dozens of pages! Which is why I DISLIKE 99% of the reviews about SSDs out there since the tests don't show prolonged real world usage. Anandtech too!

This is the reason Intel's IOMeter test is good. It can fully stress SSD drives to a point where it'll rear its ugly head.

Why does the cheap SSDs "stutter"??

They won't stutter if every block on the drive is not modified. Meaning if nothing has been written to the drive and every cell on the drive is on an untouched condition, it won't slow down.

SSDs do not erase and delete same portion of the drive over and over because writes have limited cycles so they try to spread the data around to the drive to minimize write cycles and maximize drive life span. Ideally every portion of the drive has been written once before writing the 2nd time.

Because of that, after enough writes have been done and no part of the drive is "unmodified", the drive will slow down. The drive cannot find portion of the drive that hasn't been written already and there will be only one thing left to do: Delete the existing blocks.

You can't just delete data before storing it somewhere or else there will be a data loss. That's what the caches on the controllers are for.

Sure, so you guys think the reason Intel drive is faster is because it has a DRAM and more controller cache. What happens to DRAM when power is switched off? The data disappears and after a reboot the Intel drive will perform like a DRAM-less drive right??

How about using an internal battery?? Hell no. Having the DRAM powered on will use excessive energy and is impractical. Intel claims that the DRAM is used for write-levelling anyway(in layman's terms it means its used to make sure every portion of the drive has been written evenly to ensure drive lifespan is increased).

So what DOES the Intel drive do??

Here's what it does:


The process of cleaning up the already written space and preparing the blocks for future data is apparently called Garbage Collection.

On the Intel drive the Garbage Collection algorithm is probably pretty good. But it doesn't do that always. It does that mostly when the drive is idle.

You can increase the non-user accessible portion of the drive to further delay running out of "caching" space and further delay slowdowns(drastic slowdowns I mean).

How do you increase the non-user accessible space?

The non-user accessible space is called HPA. You can download the program at: http://www.hdat2.com/

WARNING: Not only you will likely damage/lose data doing this you might screw up settings that might damage the drive. Make sure you know what you are doing! This is an advanced program.

Further downside is you'll lose even more of the storage space that an expensive storage medium like SSDs give you.

You can also disable/enable Device Initiated Power Management(DIPM) on the Intel drive for low power support.

 

great post. thanks espencially to the hdat2 link. i have no clue how to use it right now, but i'd happily reduce an intel to 64gb to get a more even performing disk. espencially on a system where i'm planning to dj on it (=> any stutter during a live performance is simply not acceptable).

 

Now that's just annoying. If you're going to refer to a post, at least link to it. I've read back 5 pages and see NOTHING about the Vertex using a JMicron controller.

You are making HUGE assumptions about a drive that no one has even tested yet, lumping it in with the G.Skill drives, especially since OCZ states that the Vertex series does NOT use a JMicron controller:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=320991&highlight=jmicron#post320991

I'm certainly no fan of OCZ, given that I own a useless Core series 64GB SSD, but implying that the new Vertex series offers the same performance as the G.Skill drives when no one has been able to test them yet is slipshod.

 

IntelUser -

Thx for the post.

This is exactly what I was wondering. Why can't the freed space be prepped in advance as an idle background task? Makes sense to me.

BTW - 'Garbage Collection' is a common s/w term for releasing previously allocated uneeded memory if it hasn't already been de-allocated by good coding practice.

 

I did some searching - a search in Google for g.skill titan stutter led me to this:

http://forums.anandtech.com/message...ORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

Bad news, I guess. I'm not jumping on SSD's until they are drop in replacements for HDDs. I don't want to spend $$$$ and then have to tweak a million things just *match* the performance of a good 7200rpm HD in my notebook.

N

 

Sorry.

But it was said about the G.Skill Titan. I'm assuming nothing much for the Vertex. However it's about as cheap. You think they are making it cheap out of nowhere?? Why do you think their OCZ SLC drives that doesn't have the problem cost more then hmm? You'd think they would sell their Vertex drives at the cost of SLC drives if it performed as good, not at 1/3 the price. It's business. 20-30% difference is understandable. But when its 2-3x the difference, there's a reason for it.

Sure you can say high-end products aren't worth it for the money. Whatever satisfies you I say.

Thanks for reading. Yea I did read about Garbage Collection for non-SSD terms.

They probably do it on idle. But they have to balance out against write levelling and power consumption. This might be why the X25-E has significantly higher power consumption.

On a side note, the X25-M is labeled as 80GB(20 4GB chips) and shows as 74.5GB. 5.5GB is used for the non-user accessible space. On the X25-E though, it uses significantly more space for it. It has 20 2GB chips making it 40GB, but its labeled 32GB meaning the actual size is really 29.9GB. This is one of the reasons why the $/GB is more than twice for X25-E.

For the sake of interest, this USB drive uses the same chip that X25-M uses: http://hardwarebistro.com/index.php...26-Kingston-4GB-DataTraveler-Mini-Slim-Review

 

I have no problem with high(er) end SSDs, nor am I implying anything as far as value. In fact I have a pair of Intel X25-M in RAID 0 as the boot drive in my new desktop.

My problem is with your assumptions and suppositions about the Vertex drives being as problematic as OCZ's previous MLC drives based solely on price point, when no one has even tested them yet.

If they're dogs, fine, then whip them. But lets at least wait until there is SOME real-world data before you automatically lump them in with the stuttering G.Skill drives, ESPECIALLY since the Vertex do not use a JMicron controller. Make sense?

 

Yeah, never read that either.

Yep, don't think it uses jmicron either. Don't think they would outright lie about this one.

Yep, that.

Also, where are these links to stuttering? Someone posted one link to some complaints on andantech.com, but are there any more? Any reviews mentioning stuttering on the Titans?

 

Another reason the MLC's are cheaper than the SLC's dont' forget the have twice/more the storage per cell... that's y i figure they should be cheaper. not because they don't bother trying to make them work properly. i'm sure they do everything they can to make them work, it's just hard to know exactly what will happen when you throw them out into the real world in mass production...

 

Corsair's 128GB SSD is up on Newegg, priced to compete with the G.Skill Titan. The Corsaid SSD uses Samsung's controller, I look forward to hearing how it performs.

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2009/01/corsair_enters_ssd_fray.html

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233075

 

It's been there for awhile. The specs are slow... I believe they are coming out with a newer model that will have much better speeds. I think it will use the newer/current Samsung controller with much better speeds.

 

I was looking at the local retailer Ncix on SSD and I came across this video on Corsair SSD 128 with Samsung controller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWiUW65DX7Y

Apparently it performs better than the rated specification.

 

I am actually getting TIRED of these companies of which the latest is Corsair saying, "The product that just reached the shelves finally is slow. Do not worry, we already have a faster version coming soon." Sheesh, come on folks. Take some time, DO IT RIGHT. If you do, we will buy, if you do NOT, we will simply wait till some one else buys so we can get the REAL scoop.

WOW, very nice video. No Jmicron, no stuttering, YES!

 

Wow... that guy moves around too much.

They got MUCH faster than rated speeds. I wonder why they rate it so slow if it really is so much faster?

Maybe I will wait for the 2nd gen Samsung drives... but I am also interested in the Vertex and Sandisk offerings coming up in the next few months. Or maybe Intel will drop their prices.

I think it might be best to stay away from jmicron, even if they are improving... seems like they are still trying to catch up with Intel and Samsung.

 

The Intel X25-M is down to $421.85 on Amazon.com.

$399.99 on newegg.com with free shipping.

 

What's the difference between the X-25 and the M? Excuse my ignorance but I can't keep up with you SSD gurus

 

Hmm, I'm liking this. Prices are dropping weekly now and new drives are still on the way promising more for less.

Greg

 

Intel has the X-25E (Extreme Performance) for server grade which is SLC. These currently have 32 and 64GB capacities.

There is also the X-25M (Mainstream) for desktops and laptops.

Does that help?

 

The 160GB Intel is down to $599 now as well.

That's about a 20% drop on them.

Cheers,

 

Oops, my bad. The 160GB is still listing at $889. I was looking at the 32GB X-25E.

 

Where do you see this? Its 889 on newegg.com

Edit: Nevermind, you just answered it

Thanks,
N

 

Again I'll point to two MLC SSDs that "work properly": Intel, and Samsung

 

NY:

It's obviously way too late for both of us.

 

Yes, thank you.

 

Rejoice everyone! X25-E for $430:
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-X25-E-E...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1233045244&sr=8-1

 

a stupid question:

for a configuration of 1.8", s-ata. what SLC options do i have? i think there are from samsung (but can't find them on dvnation anymore to buy, anywhere else?). but else nothing. no mtron, no memoright, no intel..

i'm not sure if i trust the intel mlc after some posts in here for djing. so i'm a little scared as i care about 100% reliability with no stuttering ever.

 

most likly the 64gb is about to be released to the masses.. i hope...

still does anybody know where to get teh high speed samsung 256gb ssd's? other than the dude on ebay?

 

Have they figured this out yet? An SSD drive is basicly a stack of SD or simular cards. Rather than use the SATA bottleneck they could run the modules in a raid 0 configuration. This would make them as fast as RAM. The memory cards could be placed in standard memory card slots in the side of your laptop. The cards could be upgraded one at a time. You could remove your "hard drive" and place it in your memory card wallet. How's that for security?

 

I think they are going to have to convince consumers that SSD's work before the implement entirely new storage technology into computers...

 

The problem with that is relatively simple. SD cards are as slow as cold molasses compared to real SSD's.

Greg

 

Well after reading the initial reports of Titan stutter I was pretty worried. I just got my two Titans 128GB yesterday and installed Vista 64 and all the updates etc etc...Well I can't reproduce the stuttering... Windows updates, Steam games, driver downloads and no stutter. Now I am running these in RAID 0 so maybe that helps but on my configuration I'm not getting stutter. I haven't applied any tweaks or trickery like hardware RAID. I guess if I ran one drive it would stutter but in RAID 0 the Titan seems to be pretty good.

When SSDs stutter I'm told you'll know it and it will annoy you so if it does I'll update.

 

if it's not hardware raid0, what raid0 have you set up actually?

 

So they are "pretty good"? Does that mean just a little faster or a lot faster than what you had before? And what did you have before? How's the overall system response/feel? Significantly improved or not? Thanks.

 

I probably should have said I'm not using a RAID card with cache. I was mostly addressing the stutter issue in my post. The performance is without a doubt blazing fast compared to my 7200RPM Seagate.

 

i was thinking he didn't actually mean use an SD card but a technology similar and optimized to take the place of HDDs

 

Wow, now this *is* getting interesting!

The good thing about Amazon > NewEgg, is Amazon will do RMA refunds on all their electronics (as long as sold thru Amazon.com proper). I even called them when considering a laptop purchase and they said they would RMA refund the lappy for 30 days, no questions asked, but that lappys are hit with a 15% restock fee (unlike most other products which incur no restock fees).

 

I think $300 is the border - I will buy an intel MLC, an SLC SSD or a working non-intel SSD at $300

I agree with StratCat: Amazon > newegg due to the RMA policies.



BTW - can't wait for these puppies to land:
http://www.dvhardware.net/article32461.html

 

I'll wait until they're $200 Then when they hit that, I'll wait even more lol.

Those SanDisk's look really interesting. They are a reputable brand so they should be able to deliver.

 

That Sandisk 120Gb might end up being mine when it comes out. Depends on how bad Canada gets screwed for prices.

Greg

 

By looking at how the X25-M still costs ~700$ in canada, i'd say pretty bad.

 

hope your not toooo disappointed but... there only 500$ now!
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167005

 

Newegg isn't too bad for it, it's literally the regular US prices (not counting deals) converted to Canadian dollars, it explains the really weird prices.

Greg

 

Huuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........................

 

Sigh... my 256GB Titan should arrive tomorrow. Heck, by the time it gets here, I'll probably want a different brand instead.

 

Here's a review of the OCZ apex 250 GB: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=661&type=expert&pid=1.

It looks the same as the G.skill Titan that I have.

 

I wonder if they have ever tried the dual controller with a slight twist.

It seems to me that a single controller for reading and then another controller with a decent sized cache for writing would be a pretty easy way to get around the stuttering issues. You would have an entire control just dedicated to reading so you would get the great speeds, but it would never get bogged down trying to read something at the same times its deleting/writing to a cell.

Does that make sense or just sound stupid?

 

Don't think it's possible. What if you write to a cell while it's being read, the information will just go corrupt. It needs to know what each other are doing.
Dual (it is actually two controlers plus one raid controler) is only a makeshift solution. The ideal is to have one controler that's well designed and powerful enough to handle the traffic.

 

Why not make say 512MB a CACHE? What is another half a gig between friends ?

 

Well, I've had a little time to get a feel for my G.Skill 256. Honestly, the speed is jaw-dropping. I also haven't been able to recreate the stuttering. My old HDD is in my sig.

 

That is excellent news. Please keep us informed. Man, there is nothing like some serious SPEED!