Two questions about choosing a UPS for laptops

Hi.

I have 2 questions about using a UPS with laptops.

1. I have a UPS that says "line interactive with stabilizer".
I've been using it with my desktop PC. It's 5 years old now.
Now I'm going to use this 5 years old UPS with my new laptop. I only want 'stabilizer' functionality of the UPS.
I know that battery dies over certain amount or recharges. But does the 'stabilizer' in it dies over time too?


2. Do laptops benefits from a stabilizer and/or a battery in the UPS?
(Does the laptop's own battery do the same job as stabilizer?)

Thank you in advance. =)

 

waste of money. totally. don't bother.

a) your laptop battery is its own ups.

b) your laptop power brick is its own filter/stabilizer.

If you really want to spend $100- or so I will give you my paypal account name. You'll get the same benefit.

 

If by 'stabilizer' we are talking about a line conditioner that keeps the voltage at a constant, whether in brownout conditions, over voltage cases or the more common 'spikes' we associate with a UPS, then it is not a waste of money if your area suffers from the above mentioned conditions.

If you are going to be running your computer without its battery (recommended) with a UPS with line conditioning capabilities, then the UPS having a battery is a necessity.

When run at the proper voltage, not only do electronics run cooler and at their most efficient, but they also operate better and last longer too.

Depending how much your notebook is/was, I say an additional $100 on a quality (proven) UPS with line conditioning is a wise investment.

newsposter won't like my above suggestion , but your computer will.

Cheers!

 

no. waste of money. the external power supply of a laptop can handle most overloads you can apply to them. and the battery will handle any form of underload.

ups are normally even a waste of money for pcs, so even more for laptops. ups are great for servers, though.

 

davepermen,

Sure, the notebook power supply can handle overloads, but not spikes nor under voltage. Nor will it keep the battery new for longer (because it would be needed to be left inside the notebook).

UPS's are not a waste of money if the area is constantly in brown out/ spikes/surges or even to save the battery for full use when you need it.

All debates on UPS's are from people who have had no issues with power supply related problems - when the problems are present, UPS's are a godsend.

Cheers!

 

i have two mainboards that died due to psu problems. an ups would not have helped

and no, sir, my psus all save me in case of spikes, and under voltage of up to 1 second or so.

we had short power outtakes that turned off all lights and devices. both my pc and my laptop did NOT react to it and continued to run without dropping to battery.

 

Fine, you may think/know they would not help, but a psu does not condition line voltage like a dedicated UPS does. So, I would say that the UPS would have saved your psu.

1 second is way too short - some motors take 10x longer than that to get to speed - when they finally do, not only did you experience a brownout (under voltage) but also a power spike too when the demand the motor was putting on the grid is not needed suddenly (if you happen to be on the same phase as the motor is, of course). Although a psu can handle that a few times in its life, a UPS +LC (line conditioning) is made for that specifically.

With music systems (a little above 'stereo systems' ~$100,000 or more) you can actually hear what a good UPS does - the sound comes out of 'blackness' instead of a constant and almost imperceptible white noise. It lets you see the layers of the music more easily and it also allows the system to reveal new and ever more subtle nuances too.

How does this translate to computers? Well, the 'blackness' is the better efficiency the CPU operates at because the signal is better and more defined from the noise generated by sloppy power. This allows the system to perform fewer error corrections on the fly and results in lower wasted heat too.

A UPS with LC is never a bad idea - even in a 'good' power area, the benefits are real. The only question is whether you are willing to invest the money for one.

Cheers!

 

Hi.

Thank you for all the replies. I enjoy reading expert's posts. (well all of you have 1000+ posts) ^.^

But well I already have a UPS. I wonder if I need a new UPS because this one is 5 years old.

You said 'line conditioner' is a good thing to have right?

Does being 5 years old hurt the line conditioner and/or voltage stabilizer in the UPS?

 

nice stuff you talk about, but unrelated to laptops. they have high quality components built for very bad power sources. the internal psu has to live with a battery source (very varying in the power it delivers, and especially if the battery is old).
>1sec power outtakes are no issue for a laptop, as it's enough time to switch to the battery.

oh, and, my psu never died. and it gets replaced now. there was no powerline issue at all, it was an issue of the hdds asking for too much power over a short time. no ups would have saved me there. sadly.




but if you already have an ups, just use it for the fun of it. there's no real gain, but who cares? but a new one? unneeded.


edit: oh, and till. you know i'm into music.. the white noise there can not be applied to what the cpu gets fed. a proper psu takes care of this. it has to. it has to convert AC/DC, and it depends on the converter, how well the output is. not really on the source energy stability.

 

No, the age of the UPS does not 'hurt' the line conditioner/voltage stabilizer.

But, all UPS's do not have those features either.

A voltage stabilizer is what all UPS's do; line conditioning is what the upper end offer - to me, definitely worth it.

The difference is that an entry level UPS guarantees to keep the voltage as tight as possible (within 20% or so) but cannot deliver those range of voltages cleanly.

A UPS with a line conditioning feature not only guarantees an output voltage within 1% or less, it can also react much faster and remove smaller spikes and/or dips too (which, over time, are just as bad as one large spike/dip to electronic equipment).

What the better line conditioning UPS's do is also output a pure sine wave signal, rather than the square wave output of lower quality equipment can.

Cheers!

 

Okay, we'll agree to disagree once again!

All I know is that it is related to notebooks too, even it you don't see the connection. Notebooks are not built for 'very bad power sources' they are built to a price (compromises).

The 'white noise' example is directly applicable!

When the CPU can't distinguish between 'signal' and 'noise' it says 'huh?' and the billion times slower component has to resend that piece of data. With a conditioned power supply, that noise stays out of the CPU's way and it can 'hear' the answers not only more clearly, but also more loudly, compared to the background noise.

The 'source energy stability' is the root source of how well the converter does its job. After all, the converter does not operate in a vacuum, but in a closed system where each part affects the other.

Cheers!

 

no. if a cpu sais "huh?!", you get a bluescreen or an os freeze. there's no "huh" existing. it just completely shuts down.

try it with undervolting and reduce the signal quality trough it. there is no huh. there is just plain death. same with overclocking.

the stability of the signal is ONLY dependent on the psu. obviously, there are cheap ones, and good ones. mine are good ones, tested as that (elitebooks FTW). they survive about any external source as long as there's enough battery juice around.

there's no signal/noise in the digital world. there's valid data and invalid data. on invalid data (due to noise, f.e.), the cpu shuts down.

 

lol... you think CPU's have no error correction going on? hahaha...

If you under-volt and get a bluescreen/shutdown that is the definition of a brownout. lol...

You are talking about the quantity of the voltage, I'm taking about the quality of it. What goes in, is what comes out.

I don't know any notebook that conditions the power source like you say - not even elitebooks.

Yes, especially in the digital world there is signal to noise. When 0.00001 volts means '1' and 0.000001 means '0', a clean power source is almost mandatory.

A CPU does not shut down due to noise; it simply requests the data again until its programming says it can trust what it has been given. The result is a hotter, less efficient computer, which may even give random program errors now and then, but it does not just shut down because of noise - no computer would ever work if that was true.

Cheers!

 

well. as i said. you have a nice logic. but it doesn't apply.

computers work without such forms of error protections, as after an error, it is not guaranteed that your actual data state would be valid. not every operation is undoable. you can't just "do it again", then. it would fail doing so.

imagine to dec twice, as you don't know if the first dec worked. it could now result in a value x being 1 lower than the original one, or two lower. an undefined state.

cpu's have no error correction, as, on error, you can't be sure that there is ANY way to guarantee any state anymore.

i know that cpu's work with a required signal to noise ratio, and you should not bring it to it's limits, else errors might occur leading to crashes and freezes. but that doesn't matter. the AC/DC converter has to deliver that, and psu's GET tested for the quality of the output signal (check www.silentpcreview.com for reviews of psus where they measure the output signal quality).

but any psu has to deliver that signal in america and europe, so is basically built from 100V to 250V input, 50 - 60Hz, and has to guarantee it's outputs to be within a valid range (one lane is 12V +- 0.3V, f.e., afaik from brain..).

the psus have to deliver that no matter what happens, theoretically. and practically, within the specified ranges of power. they have, too, be tested and verified to survive certain signal-input errors.

and you can test those, and validate psus for those. and they get validated, reviewed, and high end users like higher quality psus. and elitebooks have high quality ac/dc and dc/dc components in, for guarantee to work under harsh environments all the time.

but you will not agree with me, and it doesn't matter


for the op, all that matters is, it might help, but it's not worth putting any money into it.


edit: and btw, the moment the cpu can't be sure about it's instructions to be executed well, it can't be sure about it's error checking just as well (as those are not magic, but implemented the same way as actual computational units). so if dec fails, it can't check for it, as it can't be sure it's number comparison unit does not fail, too. the typical "would you notice yourself that you went crazy" dilemma. you can't, as for you, what ever you do, is normal.

 

No, it should not make any difference. It generally doesn't make sense to use a UPS with a laptop, but since you've already got one, it wouldn't hurt to use it.

 

The age and duty cycle of a UPS most DEFINITELY needs to be taken into account.

UPS run hot. Internally. Hot environments kill caps, even sealed/tantalum/thin-film caps. Additionally, the surge clamping components do "wear out" (again, from thermal stress) after a few surge protection cycles.

This is why I have an industrial strength whole house surge protector installed in my home and the vacation cabin. And I replace them every 2-3 years. The units I use are from GE, come with $150k of 'insurance' and cost me around $100- each. They install in the main circuit-breaker panel as a double-wide breaker. Cheap insurance to cover everything in the house from the central hvac to the washer/dryer to the microwave oven to the entertainment electronics and computers.

 

Thank you again for the replies.

Now I found that there are 3 slots available on the back of my UPS.

1. UPS output.
2. UPS output.
3. Surge protector for laser printer.

Does this mean that only slot#3 have surge protector?

Which slot should I use for my PC?

I know that I should just consult the user manual of this device, but it isn't here anymore. >_<
Anyway, this is my UPS:

Brand: Leonics
Model: UPS GREEN 500 (500VA)

 

No, all outlets have surge protector, #1 & #2 will actually keep powered when the power fails.

 

More helpful is to first read what the manufacturer says it does. Anything not understood is simply posted here for clarification.

A typical UPS does not claim what you were hoping AND what others here have posted. For example, to output cleanest power, the UPS connects your computer directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. That is obvious to anyone who first uses his oscilloscope to view that output.

When in battery backup mode, a UPS is some of the 'dirtiest' electricity that a computer will see. For example, using an oscilloscope, this is the output from one 120 volt UPS: two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. This electricity may be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And is also ideal power to any computer. Why? Computer power supplies (desktops and laptops) were always required to be some of the most robust devices in the house. That robust even in the original IBM PC.

Quietly, UPS manufacturer recommend no motorized appliances or power strip protectors on their outputs. See those numbers? That is why.

Computer power supplies must do many functions. For example, incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity. And that is still normal voltage to any computer. Intel specs said the computer must even power up normally when voltage is that low. Contrary to what is posted, many never learned the many functions required in all computer power supplies. Superior voltage regulation is already inside any minimally acceptable supply.

UPS has only one function. To provide power during blackouts. To protect unsaved data. Any hardware protection inside a UPS (of line conditioner) is already inside the power supply. Did you know all computer supplies must withstand transients that are thousands of volts - without damage? Again, a long time standard known to those who read specifications and designs this stuff.

UPSes are typically made so cheaply that its battery dies after three years. So cheap that a new battery costs about as much as a new UPS. Just another reason why typical UPSes do not do what so many wish it would.

All appliances already contain significant protection. The rare transient that may overwhelm that protection typically occurs maybe once every seven years. So we earth one 'whole house' protector so that everything (not just a computer) is protected. Yes, also critical is protection for the furnace, bathroom GFCIs, dishwasher, dimmer switches, and - most important if a surge exists - smoke detectors. We install only one 'whole house' protector to protect all that. And then all computers also have the best protection.

This is who it was done even 100 years ago. And only how it is done in telco switching centers (CO) and munitions dumps. Why? Because this well proven solution is more effective AND costs tens or 100 times less money.
Upgrade earthing so that the ‘whole house’ protector will be that effective. Use the UPS to provide electricity during blackouts and extreme brownouts. Ignore the many magic boxes promoted by others that do not even claim to do that in its numeric specs. Yes, either the manufacturer specs clearly states that UPS ‘cleans’ electricity – in numbers. Or its ‘sine wave’ output - a subjective claim – is that 200 volt square wave.

Your most useful posts provide and always demand numbers. No numbers is the first symptom of junk science myths. What do manufacturer specifications claim – in numbers?

 

So much text, so much misinformation.

We are obviously aware of much different equipment than the other knows/cares about.

Just for clarity, you believe what a manufacturer claims in its product spec's?

Also, you believe that a computer will power up at half its rated voltage? Uh huh.

 

Thank you.

I understand that there's no easy or absolutely correct answer to this kind of question.

I just found out the .pdf paper of the UPS in question. I'll go study it a bit.

http://www.leonics.co.th/support/brochure/1_green_en.pdf

But Grrrrr let me rant a bit. Why would they need to say 'this outlet is for surge protector' on one slot, and not the other two, when all of them have this surge protector... It's just confusing. /end rant

 

I just read the pdf quickly and this UPS is certainly not conditioning the power it outputs.


Re: rant:
The more they can confuse, the better the marketing people are at their job!

 

Allow a newbie like me to guess, you mean this part of into, right? :

Output:
Voltage stabilizer mode (sine wave) 220Vac +- 10% (230 Vac option)

 

Sorry, which part are you guessing at?


Edit: I mean which part in my quote?

 

If the manufacturer lies in numeric specs, then he is sued - big time - by companies such as insurance. So plug-in manufacturer make no protection claim in numeric specs. Well understood those who design stuff.

Same applies to a UPS. Important is to have many promote half truths and myths. Some were posted by others. In reality, a $100 UPS is one of the 'dirtiest' sources of electricity. If doubts exist, then post waveforms from your oscilloscope. If you know this stuff, you have o-scopes and other such equipment.

Do I believe that a computer will power up at half its rated voltage? I never said that. I said incandescent bulbs at 50% intensity. With basic electrical knowledge, one knew the difference. International standards or manufacturer spec numbers also define what that lowest voltage is. A proper response is to challenge with spec numbers. Many claim things without first learning even the most basic numbers. Especially retail salesmen. So often the salesmen is cites as an expert when he has near zero electrical knowledge.

An electrically educated person would know what voltage causes a light bulb to dim to 50% intensity. And knows electronics work as even lower voltages. And knows what those numbers are.

Computers must power up even when incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity. We design to the same international standards. An overt statement to the OP as to who actually knows this stuff. Same reason why so many other ‘contrarian facts’ are also provided ... with numbers.

The point: one job of any power supply is voltage regulation. Anyone with basic electrical knowledge knows that. Electric motors can be harmed when AC mains voltage changes exceeding 5%. Therefore AC electric remains well regulated - or shut off. Meanwhile, all electronics work just fine even when AC voltage changes just 20%. Most work OK with even greater voltage variations because electronics are required to be so robust. Again, international standards that we who design learned.

Why do these numbers contradict some other posts? Because a majority only read subjective sales brochures. Half truths to promote sales. A company can say most anything in retail advertising. But the company must be honest in numeric specifications. To promote myths, a company will even make those specs difficult to find. Or simply forget to include numbers that describe clean power or surge protection.

View specs for line conditioners. Many line conditioner specs are same as their power strip protector. Why? Many line conditioners are nothing more than power strip protectors in a more expensive box. Relabel it 'line conditioner' and so many will swear it is better.

Why do they say surge protector on one outlet and not the other? Measure that connection with a continuity meter. Every receptacle prong connects directly by copper to the corresponding wall plug prong. There is nothing in-between. Any protection provided to the 'surge protected' receptacle is also provides to all other wall receptacles on that same circuit. Yes, the TV across the room has the same surge protection if both are on the same circuit.

But again, shorting the public of facts cause a majority to promoted or invent half truths and myths. Where in that UPS spec do they claim protection from any type of surge - in numbers? They don't.

How many joules does that UPS list? Hundreds? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How do a few hundred joules - near zero protection - stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. But myth purveyors ignore those numbers.

A UPS manufacturer is not claiming effective protection in numeric specs. That near zero surge protection means it can claim "SURGE PROTECTION" in advertising. Near zero protection is still protection. And that is the game.

One here should have known that 50% light bulb intensity is not 50% voltage. And that is the point. To many who did not first learn these basic electrical concepts will also make recommendations on hearsay. Not first demand the numbers.

How do a paltry few hundred joules in a UPS stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It does not and does not claim to. It only claims to protect from a type of surge that causes no damage. Those numbers are not lying. Just ignored when myths are promoted.

That UPS has only one function. To provide power during blackouts so that unsaved data can be saved. Other solutions are best located elsewhere. For transient protection, the informed homeowner obtains effective solutions from companies with responsible names - Siemens, Intermatic, Square D, General Electric, Leviton, and the Cutler-Hammer solution that sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Learn from those who did this stuff - and demand manufacturer spec numbers. Or learn from those who did not even know some basic electrical concepts and never post technical numbers.

 

I mean this part of yours saying:
"I just read the pdf quickly and this UPS is certainly not conditioning the power it outputs."

that I guessed will correspond to:
"Output:
Voltage stabilizer mode (sine wave) 220Vac +- 10% (230 Vac option)"



(...But for the other part "The more they can confuse, the better the marketing people are at their job! " lol so we can't trust any manufacturer these days. -.-'' )

 

In the previous post, the relevant paragraph:
The point: one job of any power supply is voltage regulation. ... Electric motors can be harmed when AC mains voltage changes exceeding 5%. Therefore AC electric remains well regulated - or shut off. Meanwhile, all electronics work just fine even when AC voltage changes just >>20%<<. Most work OK with even greater voltage variations because electronics are required to be so robust. Again, international standards.

 

Yes, that part is basically saying it will provide the same output as your electric company supplies - in other words it is just a surge protector with 2 outlets also giving a few minutes of battery power to safely save your open documents and shut down the computer.

 

I see, now insurance companies are verifying electrical equipment suppliers claims and suing on behalf of their customers. NOT.

Nobody said that a $100 UPS is a source of clean power - nobody needs an oscilloscope to verify that claim.

If you don't mean something then why did you state it?

This is what you said:

Seems pretty clear that you're stating that 50% voltage is 'still normal to any computer' and that Intel specs even support booting up with voltage that low.

If you want to make crazy claims just to refute them in a post later, don't make them in the first place. And if you're trying to distinguish between 50% intensity and 50% voltage - make that clear. Either way, for a purely resistive load like an incandescent bulb, they are effectively the same.

I don't know how a person would be electrically educated (without the 'educator' going to jail, lol), but I do know a fair bit of electrical theory and practical applications; but what a light bulb at a lower than standard voltage has to do with electronics is beyond me.

Again you're spouting nonsense. No computer will power up at 40% of its nominal voltage - no matter what imaginary international standards you quote. Sentences like this actually makes it hard for me to think you 'know this stuff'.

Okay, interesting point: electric motors can be harmed more than electrical circuits.

That is not an inherent superiority of electrical circuits it is simply that the the better protection required for the electronics costs far less to implement than the cost for 'over building' an electric motor is. Even if space/size constraints wasn't an issue in the electric motor.

Which directly contradicts your 'will get sued' statement above.

Again, which directly contradicts your 'will get sued' statement above. You can't have it both ways; either they'll get sued for lying or not because nobody has the time or resources to check out each claim. But you can't use both sides of the argument whenever it is convenient to you.

Wow, more far fetched conclusions. You should be in marketing, but I'm wary of your type.

(Two fingers pointing to my eyes, at you, and back to my eyes again.)

Like I said to the OP, don't trust specs from the manufacturers - independent testing is more likely to be biased.

There are too many variables in your statement above. First, what wavelengths of light do we include in 'intensity', or, do we average them up or down - depending on if we are measuring pure energy or light output that we humans are most sensitive to?

Second, as I mentioned above, in a purely resistive load like an incandescent light bulb, the intensity is basically linear except for little meanderings due to slightly different resistive values of the filament when burning at different temperatures.

So, just like your claims that UPS manufacturers are selling you 'nothing', you take to confusion and deceit to make your point - trying to sell us 'nothing' either with any real proof so far.

Boy, you jump from one fallacy to another. Either you trust the manufacturers or you don't. You keep swaying on this issue.

I don't trust manufacturers - I trust independent reviews and my own research/deductions/experience.

Like I mentioned earlier, I have 'heard' a music system with a conditioned line and without it - the line 'conditioning' was not an idle manufacturers claim, but nor was it a $100 line conditioning UPS either.

I have no doubt you have some real information for us. I would be interested to learn more. But your presentation leaves much to be desired.

 

lgmcben asked a simple question:

Laptop regulation is so superior that everything works normally even when incandescent bulbs are at less than 50% intensity. Anybody can see in light bulbs how often voltage instability occurs.

Computer power supplies make line voltage variation completely irrelevant. AC line variations do nothing - zero - to adversely affect battery life expectancy. Any regulators or line stabilizers are mythical garbage to enrich that manufacturer. Recommended only by those who are educated mostly by retail stores.

Read the numbers on any laptop label (where power cord attaches to the supply). Normal voltage for any laptop is 90 to 265 volts. Show me this voltage stabilizer that does anything near that large. Normal voltage for a laptop is greater than 90 to 265 volts. No magic voltage stablizer does what is already inside a laptop.

Viewing Leonics specs creates one concern. It says overpower protection is a circuit breaker. Circuit breakers only disconnect power AFTER damage has occurred. I seriously doubt that UPS would only have a circuit breaker - would be that defective. Even computer power supplies 40 years ago had other superior functions such as fold back current limiting. Protection that works before damage can happen. Circuit breakers are for after damage happens.

The Leonics also lists 160 joules. That means it only uses about 50 joules during a surge - and never more than 110. Again, will 'near zero' protection make hundreds of thousands of joule surges irrelevant? Of course not. That is some of the most ‘near zero’ protection I have ever seen. Anyone who did not see that number - how tiny - is clearly not technically honest or educated.

All computers contain significant transient protection. So that the laptop, its battery recharge circuit, etc are not overwhelmed, lgmcben is encouraged to install one 'whole house' protector. Surges that do not enter a building will not overwhelm protection already inside the furnace, dishwasher, clock radios, bathroom GFCIs, dimmer switches, etc. And therefore will not harm the laptop. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance.

That UPS does virtually nothing for a laptop. Does completely nothing for battery protection. UPS numbers claim ‘near zero’ nothings except for a useful battery backup function. It can provide temporary electricity when AC power is lost. Nothing more.

 

Insurance companies do in fact verify manufacturer claims and initiate lawsuits. It's part of the reason that things like the NEC and UL exist.

You much-valued "independent reviews" are nothing but opinion layered in disclaimers of non-responsibility for errors or omission.

When a manufacturer designs and builds equipment that meets the NEC and is rated/examined (to destruction more often than not), their claims are subject to review on many levels including lawsuits and legal judgments.

On top of that, the engineers who design and supervise the design of electrical equipment actually have to sign off, personally, on their work. To fail in this responsibility is of the same order and consequence as an architect designing a 'bad' building.

Your ignorance in this area is getting to be annoying.