Warning: Some i7-6820HKs and i7-6700HQ have Uneven Core Temps due to Uneven Heatsink

They are likely speaking to cooling in general, and not the specific "hot core" problem.

If AW releases a new BIOS with new fan curves it will help overall temperatures if the fans run more often, but the core temperature differential wouldn't be affected.

 

Funny you mention the bios. I called support and they had me install a new bios, which did seem to get the cores closer in temperature. It didn't help overall temps though.

Also the person did tell me how many days I have left to return it and get a refund.

 

That's a bit worriesome.

AW is fiddling with the Core temperature sensor data by using a "fudge factor"??

That's not cool, or useful, it's merely hiding the problem.

If you don't have accurate temperature readings then the system can't react to correct overtemp situations, or even normal cooling situations.

There would need to be an officail CPU Errata from Intel specifically for a model, batch, or other differentiator indicating it's required to trim the Core readings, in a specific and particular way, to make readings "accurate" for it to be justifiably altered.

Since this isn't happening to all 6820HK/6700HQ CPU's it's not a general tuning issue, so how is this BIOS "fudge factor" going to affect "good" CPU's?

Will those now "good" CPU's get overcorrected and turned into "bad" CPU's with Cores 0/2 now cooler than Cores 1/3?

Did AW give any explanation as to the "fudge factor" and it's justification?

 

It wasn't explained to me. The rep just said that the problem with the differing core temperatures was known and they wanted to try installing a new bios.

 

Can you quantify the improvement / change it made to your temperature differential?

What was the degree differential before / after?

Did your fan activity change noticeably?

Did thermal throttling happen before and if so did it stop happening after the new BIOS was installed?

 

Using HWinfo and running prime95 and the AIDA64 stress test:
Before
Prime95, cores 1/3 would be around 13C hotter than cores 2/4 on their max recorded temps, and the real time readings would fluctuate a lot but mostly would be 7-12C apart. As far as I can tell there was no thermal throttling but it would only go up to a 29 multiplier. I haven't figured out how to show fan info, but they were not at full speed. Temps were max 84/72/84/71, ave 68/60/69/59 during the 21 min run.

AIDA 64, again cores 1/3 were hotter than 2/4, went to a 30 multiplier with no thermal throttling fans ramped up and maxed out. (I have no idea why it wasn't going to x32). Real time temps would have around around a 10C difference, max 87/84/86/81 ave 82/78/80/75 for a 9.5 min run. But I only had the 1.5 min of data in the screen shot I took because I realized I forgot to reset the numbers from Prime95.

After a bios upgrade and reboot.
http://imgur.com/a/ORf4R
Prime 95, multipliers are now x32, temp ave 65/59/65/56, max 74/66/73/63 for a 15 min run. No throttling. Didn't notice much of a difference in fan activity if any.

AIDA64, multipliers are now start x32 but drop to 30, with some jumps to 31 for short periods. After 9.5 minutes, temp ave 81/78/77/73, max 90/86/90/81. No throttling and didn't notice any difference in fan activity. During this run I did notice that the right fan seems to be weaker than the left one. The air flow from either the back or the side on the left felt stronger than the one back exhaust on the right side.

Just like before the "current" value would jump around a lot, but the lower cores seemed closer through the jumps. I wasn't getting a 10-13C difference, and the cold 2/4 cores seemed to read hotter and would stay within 7C of the hot 1/3 cores. As someone said earlier in either this thread or another one, core temps fluctuated wildly from second to second during the tests as can be seen in the large difference between the average temps and the max temp.

I don't know if the prior low clock speeds were due to the bios, or something else that got fixed when I rebooted. HWinfo did not report any thermal throttling for either of the tests, both before and after. Also as an odd side note, Tobii eye tracking software installed/ran, that wasn't there before. I didn't order a screen with Tobii, but it seems to work. At this point it is more of a gimmick to me because I don't currently have any games that use it.

 

Don't use AIDA, use OCCT as it is much more demanding.

Compared to OCCT, AIDA is a kiddie pool.

 

hmscott, I stand corrected!

 

Isn't that basically what vw did with their diesels? I hope dell isn't doing that or that is instant return for me even if my temps end up being ok.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your data, that's really well collected info.

I hope you are sharing that as such with AW as well. That can buy you a connection with engineering for direct contact / interaction. See if you can make that happen, it will get you a better shot at finding out what the BIOS changes focus on accomplishing.

I can't tell yet from first read what the BIOS changes really did.

It could be a different fan curve - fans are quiet up to a point so you might not notice a big change in the mid-range of the rpm range.

If could be a voltage change - reduction, overvolting Skylake CPU's is common in BIOS's, that would accomplish the same as a user applied undervolt. Reducing temps and perhaps improving Turbo frequency range, reducing power throttling(?).

Sorry if I missed it...

Are you setting the Power plan to High Performance with 100%/100% CPU performance? That could help hold CPU frequency. It will increase thermal load, the CPU won't downclock running at fixed high frequency unless thermal/power throttling.

Have you adjusted any OC settings yet? You could try to fix 4 cores at 35x or 36x to see if it will help. Undervolt. See if you can run at 40x on 4 cores at stock voltage, and mild undervolt - there usually isn't as much headroom for undervolt at higher/OC multipliers.

I need to re-read tomorrow when I have time to put into review.

If you can get AW to disclose some more info about the BIOS changes / what it's supposed to change / improve, asking directly usually works - if you are communicating via email ask to forward your questions to engineering for direct contact back to your email address.

If by phone, ask them to write an internal email to the engineering team and ask them to relay the info back to you.

 

Return it for refund. Wait for Kaby lake!! Don't mess more with this trash Or go for other brand.

 

Could you please share the new bios with us?
(The latest beta bios available is v. 1.0.6, if I am not mistaken)

 

It was 1.0.6

 

First time I've explored this thread. Here's a screenshot of my CPU overclocked to 4.2GHz running the XTU stress test. Numbers are about the same with gaming and other tests and benchmarks too. GPU is overclocked

current, low and average are all within 3-4 degrees of each other.

The MAXIMUM Temps however on core #3 is about 12 degrees colder than Core #0 (88 on Core 0 vs 76 on Core 3)

Is this something to be concerned with if the averages are about equal?

 

Thanks for sharing Jeremy. The core differentials are normal and the spread on yours look completely normal.

When the CPU is under load, depending on what the application is the cores could all be getting taxed differently at different intervals so there will be some fluctuation there.

If you go to task manager -> Performance Tab....you can observe each cores activity.

 

Cool that makes sense!!

I just added my signature, finally haha! So now everyone knows what hardware I'm on instead of needing to repeat myself every post lmao

 

That does helps. However, you'll still have some people asking what computer you have even with a sig. haha....jk....but actually it's true.

 

A lot of people - including me - turn off displaying sigs in their preferences, it really cleans up / speeds up page loads, and best yet I get more posts per page.

Instead if someone "forgets" to include their pertinent parts details, I use Profile=>Info - works with everyone except for those that lock / limit access to their profile.

It's good to mention pertinent details, however briefly, as a summary line as the first line in a post, to get our "brain computers" sync'd up for the problem statement.

 

It's weird, I was waiting for one of these - 3 "hot" cores, 1 "cold" core...

I thought it might suggest a sensors issue if this occurred - some flaw in the die that shows up as variances in readings like this.

No geographic excuse here... right / left side of heatplate pressure, how does 1 core isolate like this, or described differently how do 3 cores get "hot".

As long as your "hot" cores don't thermal throttle under high load high multiplier, which is what you are saying, I think you are ok.

But, thanks for the data point.

You might want to report it to AW, just to give them the data point, like I said it helps describe the issue more fully.

Nice OC and temps

 

My temps are similar to jeremykrak's, with the 3rd (4th) core being about 10 degrees cooler than the other 3, though I have the R3.

 

Your 6820HK is doing the same thing, that's interesting, maybe we need another poll answer , @iunlock ??

 

@iunlock thanks for adding the answer to the poll

@Turmoil @jeremykrak please take the poll:

Yes, I have a 6820HK where Core #3 (4th Core) is 10C cooler than the rest.

 

Ah that's the beta Bios. I think that's the Bios to stop thermal shutdown.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

 

I got my replacement AW 15. Without undervolt, my CPU temps average :

Crysis 1: 73 to 88. Mostly mid 70s to 85

Skyrim legendary edition 73 to 80

I will test Witcher 2. Witcher 3, I need to undervolt for my CPU temps to be 77 to 88. Max was 91 but it's only one second and it rarely happens.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

 

*** UPDATE ***

K guys so for the past few days I've been glued at my work station running several tests on the 15R3 to get down to this uneven core issue.

As you know now and it is pretty apparent that the BIOS is giving us some faulty readings, but there are a few things that I have concluded that may help even out the temps...

Here are my findings and summary of my many tests:

* The original OCCT runs at 40x put out the following on the CPU: A difference of ~15-20C

Test 1: I had simply repasted to see what the temps would be....and it did help somewhat, but the temps were still ~10-15C off from Core #3 to Core #0. Still it was a slight improvement.

Test 2: After examining the heat sink screw holes on the mobo, one side did sit lower than the other so I had adjusted the tensions arms slightly on the "higher side" needing adjustment and sure enough it helped the temp differential by ~5C.

Test 3: I even went as far as using a copper shim over the CPU with LM and this was what surprised me the most in that the temps evened out back to normal with a differential of 1-3C! So then I went to adjust the heat sink arms some more and put everything back together without the shim. After firing it back up, sure enough the temps seemed very level within normal range.

Test 4: Now going even further, I lapped the heat sink to ensure that it was super flat and level, repasted and fired it back up. Now the temps are even more level than before. For example, 68, 68, 68, 67 level at 40x OC.

So in conclusion from my findings so far, it's a uneven heat sink issue + BIOS issue. Lets hope that they release a BIOS fix for it soon, because it can get annoying to keep reading false data due to a faulty BIOS.

I don't think it's the chip itself guys...that's just my opinion based on my own data, but who knows...there could very well be faulty 6820HK's out there, but in this case I think not with the 6820HK in front of me. Everything checks out....

1. With stock paste and out of the box, it read those crazy readings just like what is being reported.

2. After a repaste it helped bring the temps closer together.

3. After adjusting the arms it helped even more.

4. The shim test proved that it was due to the heat sinks unevenness. (At least in this case...yours may differ..)

I would recommend those that are having issues still to make sure that the arms on the heat sink are going down far enough to apply enough pressure. Next check the surface of the heat sink itself...maybe lapping it will work for you too?

Remember guys, when it comes to thermals, even the smallest thing invisible to the naked eye can make a HUGE difference.

For example for all you car buffs out there...remember when rebuilding engines how important it was to hone the cylinders evenly? One little bit makes a HUGE difference...that same principle applies to when it comes to thermals....

Also, the cooling system on the 15" is obviously not the same as the 17". The fans are smaller and yet dealing with the same 6820HK so the thermals will be different than the 17" without a doubt. The temps are still good, in fact I got a 30C drop in temps, but still for it being a 15" chassis, it does a great job in cooling the mini beast of a CPU pulling 92W! - That's something to cheers about....so bottoms up!

Hope this helps guys...keep us posted...

Cheers

 

Wow, lots of good info, great work @iunlock +rep !!

Good news for Intel, bad news for Alienware...

That seems like a lot of work tuning the AW cooling to get even core temperatures.

Now that you have been through it all, do you think you could put together a step by step to address the potential problems an owner will need to fix to get their laptop fixed?

Or, do you think it's too much to tune / mod, and owners should ask AW to fix it?

Better to return swap, return for refund, or RMA instead of self fix?

 

Thanks mate! Yea what a pain in the ____ it would have been for a new owner to have to go through all of this just to get the thermals in check. Sheeshhh....no bueno.

I would recommend EVERYONE with the 15 having issues to exchange it and make it clear that this is a major issue that many are experiencing.

The only reason to keep the 15 that you have is if your 6820HK is a good performer. In that case it would be worth to mod it yourself to get it to work.
Other than that...throw it back at AW and demand a fix, while opting for the 17 if you can or able...

The last thing we want to do is to let AW get away with this nonsense. Let our actions be heard by demanding a fix and demanding an exchange.

We now can safely assume for sure that there are four major issues with the 15:

1. Thermal toothpaste. That needs to change....

2. Uneven Heatsink on the 15's....

3. Uneven screw holes on the cpu side of the mobo for the heat sink.

4. Faulty BIOS.

The fix is totally doable and not that hard really, but still we can't let them get away with this madness, because it is NOT okay.

I'll try to get something up perhaps added to the repaste thread soon. Lots to do this week...have a lot of repastes and a lot of tuning...exciting stuff!

Thanks for the reps brother....you're a HUGE asset to NBR and of great help to many.

Cheers!

 

Good morning everyone. Here is a repost that I have just posted up in the other threads...

*** Notice the even temps? ***

Hello fellow 15R3 Owners...I've got some good news for you. So as many of you are aware or are experiencing the uneven core temps, along with high CPU temps...here's some hope.

News Flash: For those of you with the 15R3, keep in mind that the fans are smaller than the 17R4 so don't get let down by not being able to achieve the temps of the 17R4. Expect to have a little higher temps from the 17R4's, but if you repaste with liquid metal you should be well within the comfortable range so no need to worry.

The CFM ratings for the 15R3 are:
7.6 and 8.7

The CFM ratings for the 17R4 are:
12.1 and 12.8

This translates to the CPU fans being ~37% larger and the GPU fans being ~32% larger on the 17R4, which is a big difference guys so again, 15R3 owners, don't be discouraged.

Spoiler alert...

Can the 15R3 achieve as good of temps as the 17R4? - Drum roll....

YES! In fact, if you have a chip that is a silicon lottery winner, you can tune it to achieve some great temps! I've been here at my work station tuning a 15R3 for hours and finally found the sweet spot...check out the results! ( BTW notice the even core temps?)

1 HOUR of running OCCT. (Check out the average temps!)



Enjoy...

 

Hope was the only one left in pandora box ...But thanks anyway.

Will try liquid metal and bending the arms following your instructions and i'll report back.

 

Any chance you'd be able to provide some detailed photos of exactly where and how you adjusted the tension arms, and which screw mounts you found to be uneven? I'd like to apply the same changes to my 15R3 as basically Dell Australia are unwilling to provide me with a replacement even though they admit my laptop isn't performing as it should.

Also, not sure if you noticed in the other thread but the new BIOS is out which fixes the temps read from the BIOS: http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/19/Drivers/DriversDetails?driverId=F007Y

I know 1.0.6 was released last week, however this is a different 1.0.6 (I have no idea why they used the same version number). If you download it you'll find the file size is different from the previous 1.0.6 (not to mention it states the release date as 7 Nov), and I have tested it on my laptop and it does indeed reduce the temperatures, however it doesn't fix the uneven core temps so I do believe I still need to make the same changes as you have.

 

I would call in and get another rep and request a refund return, as the laptop isn't a good fit for you and you no longer require it.

No questions asked returns in the return period should be allowed.

Then you can reorder when Dell gets production fixed for these issues, or order another make / model from another vendor.

Right now this is Dell's problem, if you break it open and start mucking around it then becomes your problem.

Don't get stuck with a broken laptop, send it back to Dell.

 

Problem is that I can't get it for the same price as what I paid any more. It would cost about $300-400 more for the same system.

None of the other vendors have the large battery with the other specs available in the AW15.

As I said, I am willing to make these adjustments to mine, I'd just like to be able to see what iunlock did to get an idea before I go back in myself.

 

It's easy to negotiate with AW, you might even get a better price when you re-order, citing your original price and the problems you had with it that required returning. In previous cases I have heard of people getting further consideration and other free stuff.

The "adjustments" are more than just a little screw tightening, and require some dexterity, experience, and skills learned over many years.

While this is still AW's problem, I would keep it that way and let them deal with it, and if they won't then recognize the problem and fix it, then return it so you don't get stuck with and where it becomes your problem.

You only have a certain number of days left before you can't return it.

 

I have been building computers for over 15 years, so whilst I'm sure I don't have as much experience as iunlock, I would like to think I at least have more than the average person...

In general I'd agree, but between the new BIOS and your results which suggest it could be applied to my laptop too, I'd like to give it a go and not have to deal with them again.

Yeah, I know; I have until the end of the week, hence why I want to give it one last go before having to go through the hassle of refunding and being without a decent laptop for several weeks.

 

Hello everyone , new here.
I recently got my Alienware 15 R3, (6820HK, 1070). Ordered form dell website.

And this my temperatures, all settings default. no repaste.


not good ah

 

No, not good.

 

@hmscott - Is it sensible to buy a MSI GT73VR? They only have 6820hk and since I don't live in America, I won't be able to return one since someone who is technologically illiterate will be bringing it for me.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

If you *absolutely* must select soldered i7... Why not wait for Kaby lake? It looks like Intel pushes out the last remnants of their 6820Hk which is not the best quality. All too much strange garbage being thrown out now. Wasted money and will give you only grief.
Intel pushed also out Haswell 4940Mx the year after 4930Mx. And people got a worse chips for overclocking. Don't expect Intel hiding their best binned chips for selling in the end.

 

Although true in not to hold ones breath in waiting for any miracles from Intel, the 6820HK isn't all that bad. I've already showed that (at least in my case) the issue that many are experiencing is stemmed from a heat sink issue.

In terms of better binned CPU's, Kaby Lake might be just a better binned Sky Lake with some bells and whistles benefiting those who work with specific encoding protocols. Will kaby lake be a deal breaker? No, but it'll worth having as it'll be naturally clocked higher.

However, will this cause a smaller head room for over clocking is the question...

We shall know soon....

::iunlock::

 

Well, I pulled my laptop apart last night to have a go at modifying the heatsink, and I can report that with slight bending of the heatsink mounting arm and adding more thermal paste to the top left corner, the results are a really good. Where I was previously getting ~20C difference in temps between the cores, I've managed to bring that down to ~10-12C, and reduced the overall temps too. When I received the laptop I would reach 98C with just OCCT, even with the CPU throttling down to 2.6GHz. With -150mV and all the changes made, it's now sticking to 52-62C average across the cores at the full 3.1GHz. Even with full stress testing both the CPU and GPU it maintains 3.1GHz with temps only reaching just over 90C (GPU only gets to 67C). I'm now happy to keep this unit; no need for a refund.

I'm sure with more tweaking, lapping and liquid metal I could reduce the difference and reduce the temps a lot further (especially given Core 3 only hits a max of 54C), but basically I don't want to push my luck and the results I've achieved are enough for my needs.

 

That's great news, glad you were able to tweak it into an acceptable range for your needs.

Just so you know you are still +10c over the other cores which is Intel's return for replacement differential - anything less and Intel won't do a return.

If you find a game / application that does take the hot cores into thermal throttling and decide to fix it further, please come back and let us know what you did and your results.

Thanks for letting us know what you did and your results on your first attempt, I am sure it will help others in their efforts

 

There have been lots of people with MSI GT73VR's reporting good results, so I wouldn't hesitate to order one to try for yourself, to see if it does what you need.

There is always a danger with any make / model / brand when ordering outside the country it's sold / purchased in, as unless you have someone pre-test it for you before shipment, you can't know if it has any faults.

If you can find a shop that will pre-test it for you, and double box shipping wrapped in bubble wrap so it is well protected for shipment, you will have a better chance of it arriving 100% functional.

I don't think it's any more or less optimal for any make / model ordered sight unseen, except maybe Alienware - they tend to have a large percentage of owners that need service after the sale, so maybe don't get an AW that can't be serviced locally.

 

Thanks a lot for the help and useful advice. Could you please tell me which model numbers of the GT73VR have G-Sync? On GenTechPC the Titan Pro-003 is advertised with G-Sync, but on no other website is the 003 shown with G-Sync. So I'm confused. And since @hmscott is the most helpful guy on the forums, any info will be appreciated.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

You need to find that for yourself, in your region it may be unique or different from others.

It's simple information to research and find on your own

MSI.com, and sales and technical support can help you, be sure to access the site for your region, and let them know where you are located - and if there is no MSI sales in your region, pick a nearby region you can access for sales.

 

Ok. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

***News Flash!***
(No not about the elections ROFL.)

Hey guys, hope everyone is having a good evening on election day ROFL...anyhow I am right smack in the middle of another repaste of an AW15R3 and guess what....

I just had to bring this to you guys LIVE as I couldn't resist waiting until I was done so here it is....the proof that supports my original theory of the heat sink being uneven due to the screws holes on one side of the mobo being lower than the other and/or the lack of another screw on that end to provide more pressure to hold that side down evenly with the other side.

I've used some high end pressure paper...(This stuff is expensive.) Commercial grade stuff...

- And guess what? It so happens to be conveniently on the side of the CPU where there is only one screw whereas on the other side there are two screws LOL. Coincidence? I don't know...let's ask a chimpanzee. Not rocket science.

So guys...there ya go...non-mystery solved. It's not the 6820HK...

This unit also has a core differential of 30C! I just ran a bunch of stock benches to collect my initial data, which I do on all machines that I work on before performing the repaste. I'll report back with the post repaste temps when finished.

Hope this helps those of you with the 15, sleep at night..

Bottom line. Let Dell to take care of this issue. As I've said before, the ONLY reason you would want to keep your unit is if you have a nice silicon and ONLY then would you want to give it the time of day to fix the issue on your own. Otherwise you're just doing an injustice to the situation that is factually common and evident among many many 15 owners. ie.....raise havoc to Dell! Demand. Not ask. This is an issue that they need to fix! Not us the owners...Fair is fair guys...simple as that. This type of QC issue should not exist in a $2000-$3000 machine. It's obviously the QC issue overseas and the poor work that is being done there. Maybe Dell needs better management, an eagle eye on these works and to switch up the thermal paste. Everything else is beautiful...the machine is great, but the some of the things under the hood makes a great machine crumble.
Foundation is key and having good thermal paste along with a flush heat sink -> die to dissipate this heat is obviously important.

Hope this helps...

It's obvious that it's cooking under there...look at that...


See those bubbles?! Air bubbles / pockets from the stock paste or any paste = NO GOOD! HEAT!


Laying down the pressure paper...


See how much darn pressure is on one side? Just crazy... (This is the CPU side.)


Evidence that the heat sink is uneven. Look at what side the pressure (red area) on the GPU is...yup... Also, the GPU has way more tolerance than the CPU although it is uneven like this, which is why the GPU temps aren't really an issue with a good repaste.


Plus look at them grooves on the CPU side of the heat sink! SMH ...This is why I lap the heat sink. Yes really...

 

This means that the heatsink assembly is poorly designed? A pure design flaw. Oh 'well. Will Dellienware fix this? Or will most part of buyers get a AW machine who have perfeckt coooling out of the box?
You can't expect that every single buyers of the Alienware machines will have to modifying the flawed cooling. A re-paste will not fix this problem 100%!! And all know the hired tech will not make the big difference!!

 

True. This is more so an alignment of the mobo heat sink screws flaw more than the actual heat sink itself. Yes, that is why a lot of those who have repasted ended up with the same issue.

I hope Dell fixes this. It's just the right thing to do. Again, fair is fair and as a company they have a duty to provide good quality products and as the consumer we deserve to get a working machine without grave defects like this issue here.

Also, to be fair a little fix here will cure the issue, where as the Clevo heat sink issue is much worse than this.

 

The question is how many people have bought the machine with this flaw... Or those who already have started with the purchase of a machine and will get a machine who don't work 100% as expected. Machines on the way to the customers....!! What can Dell tech do(you know the tech Dell use for home support)? What can Dell do for the machines that are not reached out to customers...? And will Dell do something with the problem on the factory...? Yeah, A Big mess.
I expect to see many who will complain about too high cpu temperature in a lots of threads gradually. This will be a *hot* topic!
I don't think Clevo owners are equally affected like this high temp mess. Not those big numbers I have already seen from AW!!

 

That's because the amount of people who buy Clevo's is very small compared to Alienware.

Yes this is a big issue...a hot topic and I hope that it grabs the attention of those on the other side. We'll see if they take any action with this...sooner or later as people start returning their machines by the masses, it'll force them to address the issue.

Dell tech's? You mean monkey's in a zoo? Dell + Tech is an oxymoron. These third party hooligans are useless. It's just the truth. They do more harm than good and most of them really don't know what they are doing. If you put up a poll about this, the number of dissatisfied people would squash those who feel satisfied with their service. Most times than not, these so called techs end up breaking something else...

Also, when this heat issue was addressed on Twitter, someone (AW owner) asked about the thermal paste or something....I have to find the tweet screen shot, but how AW answered back was just ridiculous. The replies were the same robotic reply with the same generic message. That is not how a company should treat their customers in giving them half ____ answers. Where's the respect for the customers?

You seem to be good at finding stuff online so if you can dig that up, please post that here to let it be known, because PROOF is PROOF and FACTS are FACTS. - And...FAIR is FAIR.