What do I really need? Is an i3/i5 overkill?

I hope this is the right section for this..

I'm shopping for a lightweight ultrabook, convertible, or tablet(haven't decided yet) and have a question on how much processor I need.

My question is, what can you do with the 4xxxU processors that you can't do with an Atom or AMD equivalent? Obviously the U parts are underpowered for most CPU heavy programs as well as for gaming so my question is when would you go with a U series over a lower priced option?

I'm planning on using the device I get for both writing articles(getting a mechanical keyboard most likely hence why I'm looking at devices without a keyboard built in,) watching videos(1080p on youtube,) and doing video chat/audio recordings.

Putting aside the fact the better quality devices are usually those with the higher end processors, is there any reason for me to step up to a 4010U or 4200U over an Atom or AMD product? Or is it as I mentioned before that the higher spec machines usually come with better build quality, screens, mics, and cameras?

 

What you will get over a tablet form factor is a real SSD inside (you are getting an SSD, right?) vs. an anemic eMMC storage solution.

What you will get with a Haswell platform is better battery life while idling and MUCH MUCH MUCH more performance over an ATOM or AMD setup. When editing your video/audio recordings (if you do...) the more capable Haswell platform will really prove itself now and especially in the future (near and far) when everything (even web browsers) will require even more HP than the lowest end tablet and/or Atom/AMD platform can deliver now.

When buying a system:

1) Always buy as much performance/hardware as you can afford - especially if you're considering keeping the system for more than ~18 months.

2) Always buy a platform you can upgrade at least the O/S, the RAM and the storage subsystem (and as many of these as possible at time of purchase).

3) And always buy the fastest and biggest capacity you can (this rules out tablets unless they hit ~500GB in the next few months).


If your budget allows you to do all the above, the notebook you buy today will still be viable and useful even 5 years down the road.

Whereas if you buy what you think you need today; you'll be needing to shop for a new system sooner than you think (or complaining about the system you have and can't upgrade to where it needs to be for your then current workflows).


Hope this helps.

Good luck.

 

Atoms and low end AMDs are simply slow. You open a few browser tabs and/or a few Word documents - 100% CPU usage, everything else is laggy as hell. More than 5-10 programs (incl. background) running at the same time - 100% CPU usage and serious lag again.

A mid-high end Intel CPU will rarely have these problems. A quad core AMD A6 should be fine. At least don't go with an Atom .

 

I think you tend to see AMD in more cost conscious products, which won't be quite as well built. In my experience, if you want a good keyboard, ultrabooks and the like just don't have enough depth to allow for a really good keyboard.

 

OP - sorry but the foregoing answers are just off-base.
if you want to do the diligence yourself just lookup published 3rd party benchmarks on the Bay Trail "Atom", Celeron, Pentium models vs the newer AMD parts. Also the same on Haswell i3/i5 models
I mention the Bay Trail series because of the above remarks about "Atom" et cetera.
The Bay Trail parts are WAY ahead of the old in terms of raw cpu performance and gpu performance.
This article is an OK flyby, but by this point, the numbers are done and speak for themselves. AnandTech | The Bay Trail Preview: Intel Atom Z3770 Tested

But back to your original questions i3/i5 - I have noticed that the i5-4200u is showing up in a number of recent laptop releases and some are not terribly expensive. if you can sort through the various user/owner comments, casting aside the hate that Windows 8 itself generates, what you have is really spectacular performance compared to any prior models in the same price range, and with greatly increased battery life. See this for an example [just one example - it has many competitors] Amazon.com: Acer Aspire E1-572-6870 15.6 Inch Laptop Intel i5 4200U 1.6GHz Processor, 4GB Ram, 500GB Hard Drive, Windows 8 (Clarinet Black): Computers & Accessories

Even the aforementioned Bay Trail quad-core -based models deliver very good performance and exceptional batt life.

to the AMD-based units: I'm starting to finally see some decent models show up - the comment above that the AMD components tend to show up in cheaper models is not true in the current market because Intel severely undercut AMD [basically just about terminated them] on cost of components to the vendors Thus you will see new A4- and A6- amd notebook models that cost as much and more than the i5 model linked above, while not really being competitive in CPU perf [and I am a AMD graphics fan].

hope this helps

 

cognus,

sorry, don't have time to read all your links, but I do have a Bay Trail QC SoC. The comments above by jotm are spot on: any 'normal' use of the T100TA has the cpu spiking to 100% (and sometimes glued there for a very long time) and worse, as I mentioned the eMMC storage subsystem also takes its toll on responsiveness in a real workload (Outlook, for example). And this is a much improved eMMC solution vs. what is available in other, lesser, tablets.

What I'm saying is; if you can get an BT Atom QC in a real notebook with access to real RAM (over 4GB) and a real SATA3 connection to an SSD, the performance may be fine.

But if that is the case: an i3 and especially an i5 Haswell based platform will still run circles around the BT Atom - even if both have the same ancillary parts.

My point stands: buy as much hardware (and maximize the platform as early as you can) as your budget allows.

Anything else is wasting your money and your time (from lack of performance) .

 

to clarify: BT/Atom is only in tablets AFAIK
Quad-Core BT/Haswell Pentium, Celeron, i3 etc are notebook. where's the "in betweener"?? beats me.

I've used 8/8.1 quite a bit and while the memory management is superior to Windows 7, 2GB is self-defeating. One will not OFTEN need 2GB+, but it does happen. I watched this metric very closely on a system I recently sold to a customer. 3GB would suffice for virtually 95% of remaining [dwindling] PC users.
If CPU has to get involved handling a lot of paging from the very busy/complex browsers/content of today, it would drive up CPU unnecessarily

 

To clarify what I'm really looking for here, a machine to write articles on and to create(lowish quality) audio recordings for podcasts using Audacity. I plan on doing recordings on the go or outside so naturally the quality of microphone available to me is going to be pretty low. I'm looking at 2GB per recording and I can easily do whatever editing needs doing on my home PC.

As for writing I've tried out numerous devices in the Ultrabook range, most notably an Acer i7-4500U model which had a keyboard so poor I returned it. I plan on lugging around a mechanical keyboard when I plan on writing and really so long as there is something good enough for moderate web browsing built into the device I'm good there. I don't know how good on screen keyboards are these days so that's one thing I need some advice with.

Also, and most importantly I'm planning on starting up a website in the near future. I need a device that will let me check in on it and do mod/admin work on the go. So basically I need either 3G/4G and a good battery life to ensure I don't get stuck somewhere with a dead battery when I need to be working on the site. The site itself is going to be a social networking site so I don't know how well a Atom will handle it. That's really the most 'demanding' thing I'm worried about, and I'd prefer to go with an Atom as they tend to have even better battery and I can get similar build/screen for cheaper which will allow me to invest in a better internet plan and microphone.

I do want a solid state drive but I'm not sure I really need the speed of a 'good' one. I'm getting by with a mech drive on my desktop(bought a refurb Sandforce and it died) so a slow SSD is still a good boost for me.

Really any difficult tasks that need doing, I've got a 2500K in my desktop to deal with. I'm not planning on being out of the home for days at a time or anything so my portable device is just for taking notes/writing, and recording. I plan on making a thread asking about specific devices either here or on the tablet site once I've figured out more what I'm looking for as I'm going to want some business features such as having a fingerprint reader as well.

So, am I going to have a laggy computer if I'm doing the above tasks or watching a single 1080p video on youtube? Build, battery, and functionality all matter more to me than performance.

 

I understand where you're coming from. To be honest I had an Asus Transformer T100 for a little while and it was remarkably responsive with just the Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, and 64GB eMMC SSD on a 1366x768 touch screen for under $400. It's $379 at Walmart if you're interested. It's a 10" tablet with a keyboard dock with a single USB port. But it's sufficient for basic tasks like you describe.

 

And I still have the (same) Asus T100TA and if I use it like I would a real notebook: I can kill the battery in a couple of hours (edit; closer to 3.5 hours).

Not editing images or anything else; simply using Outlook 2013 and a few IE browser tabs open. Like I said above in a previous post: the cpu spikes to 100% (as does the eMMC 64GB drive utilization) often and that is what kills battery life: actually using it. lol....

When I'm just checking emails (but not answering them) the same system can go for 4+ days on a single charge.

Unless you can get an Atom based system with a huge 6 cell battery, you will not realize the goals you have of this system you're planning.

Most workloads which we call 'light' are not so light when paired with anything less than an i3 IB or Haswell platform.

That is why I suggested (and still do) an i5 Haswell based system if you want to use this much past 2014 without swearing each time you pick it up.

Even though you changed the scope of this system by introducing your desktop to actually edit the files you'll create; a tablet would still be a very poor choice to do this with.

Surface Pro II excepted; but battery life is still not where it should be - either is the cost with keyboard vs. a real notebook.

 

How can you kill the the T100TA in a couple of hours? I had it run over 10 hours with basic web surfing, emailing, YouTube, and some MS Office stuff. It has a 31WHr battery and at load with CPU and GPU peaked (i.e. gaming benchmark) it ran at about 10W peak. With just CPU taxed fully it ran at less than 6W. So you should be getting at minimum 4-5 hours with a primarily CPU heavy workload.

I wouldn't recommend it as a primary PC, but just as an extension for note taking, browsing, Office, and YouTube viewing it will be fine. Audio recording, however may not be the best suited as the OP wants to do. But if you step up to an Intel "U" CPU the cost goes up significantly as well. It's hard to find a laptop with an Intel CPU with i3 or faster with decent battery life for less than $800. But if OP is willing to spend that money, then consider the Yoga 2 or Sony Vaio Pro. Battery life is excellent, although the Yoga probably has a better keybaord and can be used as a tablet.

 

"watching" a 1080p vid? that means a high end display unless you're mistaken, OP.
for that you need one of the upper end ultrabooks - thinkpad custom-ordered from Lenovo would be my suggestion. at least in past models, the thinkpads had some of the best keyboards in the bizness, like the one I'm bashing right now - lowly thinkpad x120e that is so good I can't replace it - yet. fullsize keyboard for my big hands, in a 11.6"-display package. NOT 1080p however.

I think your limiters here are battery life, kbd, display. something's got to give. If you go ASUS ultrabook or thinkpad or the dell 14z [correct me guys if wrong on that ] custom display, their ssd [as opposed to you doing it] you're above $1500 I think. I don't think the processor choice is hard - take the i5-4200u I spoke of above - Intel HD 4500 or higher

 

if all you are using it for is internet even a Core 2 Duo would be plenty. I my self have a 7 year old core 2 duo laptop with 4gb of ddr2 and a 64gb ssd and extended battery. it flys and the battery last pretty good too. (probably cause i have an ssd instead of hdd) it's a Dell XPS M1330

EDIT: i haven't tested 1080p but, even when i had the intel graphics motherboard it could still do 720p. (i upgraded to nvidia graphics motherboard)

 

I edited my post (closer to 3.5 hours to kill it) but what does it is running OneDrive and Dropbox with my 17GB Outlook pst file being constantly sync'd.

The cpu % utilization never goes below 70% and the disk utilization is at least 40% if not 100% many, many times (when I think to check it).

On an i3 350M (circa 2010) with 8GB RAM, Windows 8.1 and a 512GB SSD, the cpu spikes to 100% just opening up task manager.

But I can get much more battery life from the i3 (with a nominal 8 hr battery life) than the T100TA when I'm actually using it in my 'light' workloads.


These Atom based systems will be obsolete (for me at least) as soon as Broadwell hits town - I need long battery life but I also need it doing real work; not just watching video or letting it sit idle for 99% of the time.

The T100TA is a great little system: impressive is the right word. But it was a learning experience for me and next time, I won't believe so easily that a $350 system can do it all (all=basic) on the cheap.

And neither should the OP think that an Atom based system deliver what he/she wants (battery life in addition to usable performance).

 

Hmm, I thought I posted a reply earlier but it doesn't seem to have gone through.

I was looking at something along the lines of a Fujitsu STYLISTIC Q584. I'm not sure though as I need something usable outdoors.

The big reason I'm looking at Atom products is because I don't think I can get: a lightweight/portable device, business features, and good performance without going over budget(which is about $1000.) It seems to be a 'pick 2' situation and performance is the thing I care least about. Screenwise I want something nice and crisp, maybe I can go without 1080 if I get something under 11'', IPS though is a must have. I really don't need to be watching youtube on the thing and I can 'make do' with 720p. I suppose I really shouldn't have even brought that up as it's not a big deal to me.

My other question which may be better suited for the tablet forum, is just how much screen space I'm going to require. After trying the Haswell Acer Ultrabook i concluded 13.3'' is too much for my needs. I've mainly been looking at 10-12'' tablets and convertibles at this point. A friend tipped me of though that I could drop my cell phone coverage(a tracphone right now but I was going to upgrade) and get a 4G plan and then just use Skype for phone calls. So long as I can receive calls through that from mobile phones, and so long as I can go on long walks without having too bulky a device on me that would be an ideal solution to cover my needs phone wise and computer wise. Really, I don't talk on a the phone often but when I do I'm on there for hours, so having a tablet in a pocket/backpack with a cheap headset is a million times more comfortable than holding a phone up to my ear. So basically I need a device that is big enough to take notes in class(on a very small desk right in front of me with an external keyboard) but small enough that it's not a complete hassle to walk around the neighborhood with as I like doing when I'm on the phone.

Really so long as I can do email on it, MS word, 2-4 tab web browsing, administer/check up on my website, and video chat I'll be happy. Apparently there is some issue with Skype and battery life as well, so I'd say I want at least 5hrs of audio chat functionality(wherever I can do vid chat there will be a plug.) And again, one of the reasons I didn't post all this in the forum where specific models are recommended is because I'll probably be waiting a few months for the newest AMD and Intel CPUs. What is the timeframe on those anyways? I don't want to go more than say... 3 months. Also I'm somewhat interested in Win/Android hybrid machines but only because there are a few Android games I'm interested in. It's an extra thing I'd like but not a requirement especially as I don't see too many business oriented machines coming with that feature.

 

Just read another post that seems relevant to this thread.

See:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...531329-throttlestop-guide-39.html#post9599824


(Post 1950 by unclewebb if the link doesn't work properly).


If you follow the half dozen or so posts before the one I linked, you will see that even a 'U' cpu is not worthy of consideration. And unclewebb reinforces what I mentioned here that a current platform cpu is very frugal with power when idle; but it may still throttle too much when our workloads need to push it once in a while.

Again: avoid Atom, AMD and 'U' class processors/platforms if 'real work' is expected of the system at anytime during ownership (and long battery life is important too).

 

Well the i7 4500U in the Acer I tried was more than enough for me performance wise. What should I be looking at if I care about battery life then, you're basically telling me to avoid all the low power processors.

 

Then as noted, $1000 will get you a Yoga 2 or Sony Vaio Pro 11. Both have "U" CPU's but are very capable machines. I picked up the Vaio Pro 11 with i5-4200U, 4GB DDR3, 128GB SSD for < $800. It goes for about $900-$1000 though usually. Yoga 2 is also about $900-$1000 with similar specs but folds into a tablet.

 

Yeah, that is exactly what I'm telling you. They are not only low power (battery-wise), but also productivity-wise too (even if the manufacturer/system/BIOS isn't designed to throttle them even more... did you read the link?).

Any modern Intel platform sips power when idle: but when push comes to shove, real work needs real hardware (do not be fooled with a marketing ploy by Intel to make you spend more money for less performance).

And I'll say it again. What we think is 'light' work today is very heavy on our platforms (as shown by how wildly my battery life drops on the T100TA from 4-6 DAYS to 3-4 HOURS simply browsing - 14 tabs right now in IE, using Excel, Word, Outlook - yeah, I know; huge pst file..., OneDrive and Dropbox).

Don't be fooled by way it feels in the store over 5 minutes playing with it.


In the time it took me to reply to this post (while checking and replying to my email and updating my spreadsheets), the T100TA showed the battery power went from 31% to 26% (in about 10 minutes). Yeah; I can kill this battery in less than 4 hours...

 

How much of that is because you're constant syncing with Onedrive & Dropbox though? That seems like a pretty demanding task and it's not something I'm going to do. I guess what is better to say for my usage is that I will be using word with 2-3 tabs open OR doing chatting/recording OR administering my website. I don't plan on trying to do everything all at once. With my desktop there are days I have 40 tabs open at once(though rarely are they all actively loaded), on the go I can manage with <5.

The Acer with the U processor struggled to make 3 hrs which is not good enough for me.

I looked at the Yoga 2 and the Vaio Pro at the local Best Buy and found the typing experience with the both of them awful. I cam to the conclusion that I'm either going to need an external keyboard(which would be nice to have anyways) or a detachable hybrid such as the Surface 2 or HP Spectre x2. They keyboards on those devices were tolerable, though the exact same HP model that was not detachable again had an awful keyboard. I've come to think that if the PC hardware is underneath the keyboard there simply isn't enough room to put in a good board. So if I do go with an ultrabook(as opposed to a tablet) I'd like to get a model like that. A convertible is also necessary if I am going to use something as a phone(where I wouldn't want to carry along the keyboard with me.)

 

You can believe that syncing with OneDrive and Dropbox is a demanding workload.

What I'm trying to get across is that these ever increasingly demanding workloads are going to be the norm going forward; not the exception. And less powerful platforms like tablets, 'U' processors etc. will just not cut it (if not now (for your current workflows); in the very, very near future). Especially when one of your goals is long battery life too.

I've said all I can here.

Good luck with your choice and hope it lives up to your expectations.


(Btw; battery level is now 11% - Outlook closed for at least 75 minutes, Excel and Word shut down and OneDrive and Dropbox sync'd 1 hour ago; the battery % difference is almost due solely to browsing with less than half a dozen tabs open - that was my test for today ).

 

Portable devices all have their compromises, hence why I'm always aghast when one of my friends buys a laptop to just use it at home in one specific location. They use them for gaming too meaning they are near always plugged into the wall. I gave up on gaming on the go after I tried the Acer. Intel even specifically advertises their Ultrabooks as being optimized for Civilization 5(well it's probably the other way around), yet graphical glitches were numerous enough to render the game unplayable, and it was so slow even on low.

That is something I've come to accept with my shopping for a portable device, I'm not going to carry around a full sized laptop in my backpack just so that I can have an enthusiast grade product. And I accept that I will have some lag from time to time and will forget to charge my device sometimes and end up having a bad day.

I was stuck with an un-reliable Dell desktop and dial up far past the time either was new, and I used to play Sims 2 on it too.. the release version which at times would take half an hour to save/load. I'm patient when I need to be.

Keeping all that in mind what would you recommend? Is there anything better than an Atom/U series device that weighs under 2 pounds at this time? Surely I will have a better experience with an Atom device than my friends going around trying to get work done on their iphones. Or Android tablets.

 

Under 2lbs? The T100TA is 2.35lbs with the keyboard.

Sure, it's better than an iPhone or Android. But not good enough.

Again; how long do you see yourself using this for (18months?)?

I've been using my T100TA for just over 3 and I'm ready to give it away to a six year old.

(Lol... the battery is now 6%... just two tabs open since my last post... Don't believe the hype; you need a large 6/9 cell battery and a real cpu with 4/8/16GB RAM to have an all day system, even now - hopefully Broadwell will change this significantly).

 

Hmm, the Fujitsu Q584 is 1.4lbs and the ElitePad 1000 G2 1.5lbs. The keyboard is going to increase that I'm sure but I'm not going to take that with me everywhere so I'm not counting it for that measurement.

Speaking of which, you dropped 5% battery life in 30 minutes? So that would mean if you used it the same way you have the past 30 mins all the time... 10hr battery. So for my usage I predict I'd get a little less from the HP(which has a higher res screen and similar battery.) Not too bad. The Fujitsu has a 33% larger battery as well which means it would easily be able to handle my workload for an entire work day(not that I'm going to use it that long.)

I see myself using this device for 3yrs. I think it's safe enough to say that MS Word and Skype are not going to become more demanding in the next few years, and neither is my audio recording. The only thing that may become more demanding will be browsing the web, and at least with my own website I am in control of the software being used.. which is tuned to work on slow mobile devices.

And it will beat my phone for chat guaranteed. My phone has an 1 1/2 long charge which drives me nuts.

 

It was technically closer to 6% in 24 minutes, but who's counting?

Either way, having two browser tabs open is not my definition of 'work'.


A funny thing happened after I charged up the system: a new BIOS is available specifically aimed at improving battery life (we'll see) and a newer Wifi driver that aims for the same.


See:
http://www.asus.com/supportonly/T100TA/#support_Download


I usually check for updates right after a system is fully charged and was chuckling when I saw these updates after the conversation we've had yesterday.


We'll see how it goes for me, but with your 3 year expected use of a step above a phone system; I think you'll be shopping (or hoping you could) way before 2017. Word and Skype not becoming more demanding is expecting them to become stale and become irrelevant in the foreseeable future (which MS would not do purposely).