What is the current CPU/GPU limit for a cool (and silent) 17+" gaming notebook?

I'm very satisfied with my current BGA notebook. I don't do heavy gaming and therefore the system is perfect for me. GPU is running in hybrid mode, so when doing office and browsing my fans are not audible. Even with my usual gaming the fans do not exceed 70%, which i'm fine with.

But since noise is a very important factor for me i wonder, what max. performance you can get today, if you want a rather silent system? Is there much compromise needed or is it "just" a matter of a good quality cooling system and some tweaks?

My next notebook will be non-BGA for sure, since it should be upgradable. I'm building desktop PCs for over 25 years now and i want to be able to do at least something with my notebook in this direction as well.

 

Well, LGA/MXM laptops are going the way of the Dodo, and I would only get one if you really know what you're doing,
and they're quite noisy, so be warned.

If you want a silent laptops, lots of compromises will be made, but on the other hand a silent desktop is dead simple and much cheaper

 

Upgradable LGA/MXM systems are indeed an endangered species. Generally this means desktop processors as there are few if any socketable mobile processors from Intel. You do need to be an informed customer into what you are buying when you buy into any given LGA/MXM system as there are inherent design limitations that aren't present in desktop rigs (330W power limitations, BIOS limitations for overclocking voltage), TDP limitations of heatsink/ heatpipe / vaporchamber/ fans.

As someone who had had PC gaming desktops since 1990, I wanted to try LGA/MXM laptop hardware, too, before it went away=soldered BGA trashbooks. I've had fun with the AW18 and Eurocom Tornado F5 (MSI 16L13 whitebook barebones). I actually thought the AW18 would be the end, but then the Eurocom appeared, so I bought it, too. After the limitations of the AW18 I wanted to keep the experiment closer to $1700 instead of $2400. So buy and do your homework. These systems, although high performing for mobile, are limited if you're used to desktop as I was. Buy and homework (as Jim Cramer, would say).

Grant is right, these notebooks are noisy. Heck my Eurocom has a turbo fan button on it. One push, and it is instant 100%. The suggestion from the community is the game on 100% fan speed. I do. I just use external powered speakers that are connected to my TV. Or in the case of the AW18, I use its speakers to cover up the fan. You can't beat physics. And with power comes heat. The copper only hold so much heat - for only so long - before you need to start exhausting that heat, and that means fans. More performance, is even more heat.

I game with a heads up display. I use Riva Statistics server (to retrieve data from laptop sensors) and use MSI Afterburner to display the real-time values from the sensors in a HUD overlay on top of the game, in the upper left corner.

Spoiler: Sort of like this

Code:

CPU load%, deg*C
GPU load%, deg*C
DX11 int FPS

^^^ That way I can monitor CPU/GPU load and CPU/GPU temps while in game.
...but I use orange text, and I just limit to the above text in the CODE tags instead of ALL of the sensors, like that guy has. His is TOO BUSY, in my opinion.

I used to value silent notebooks, too. As I was coming from IBM hardware (X-series, T-series, esp. T42 series 14 inch) where thin, light, and quiet was tauted as engineering excellence, and passed on to the consumer as a premium product to be paid EXTRA for. But sometimes there is no replacement for displacement. It's hard to build a thin & light & silent heatpump unless it's water cooled or uses refrigerant.

I do have a desktop that has custom-loop water cooling. Where I bought a water block for the CPU, a GPU with a water block from EKWB already on it, separate pump, reservoir, radiator, fans, and a very large and spacious case. It is dead near silent and performs better because the motherboard has more features than the laptops, I'm not limited to 330W or even lower PSU like a laptop, I can install as big of a cooling setup as a want to move as much heat as a want, it moves more heat and it almost silent while doing it.

I had have a few thin and light notebooks for normal work. I appreciate them for those jobs. I tried a thin and light for gaming once. I did not like it. The design tradeoffs for the GPU were not something I thought was appropriate for performance, despite it being thin, light, and quiet (Thinkpad T43, then T61p).

At some point with a performance laptop, you get so much fan noise that most use headsets as the solution, since at some point there's no way avoiding it. What point that is? There's no cut and dry answer. Every heatsink and fan is different. Some fans are small diameter and high rpm and have a high frequency pitch. The ones in my Tornado and AW18 are big and more like a low hum or whir. Plus everyone's hearing is different as is everyone's personal bias and irritation level for fan noise. It's not like I can say, 341 BTU/hr (100W) is the threshold for quiet, or twice that or triple that. It's not like I can say this TDP CPU with this TDP GPU together, is the threshold for quiet. Is it the GTX 1060 or the GTX 1070? Or with this Clevo or MSI chassis, this-or-that is the threshold for a silent system, etc. And what's silent? What frequency? What dB-SPL? That's again why I recommend Buy and Homework.

 

There are benefits and downsides to every single thing on earth. For this scenario, you need to decide whether the portabilty is worth the inherent costs that come with it (Much more heat, PSU limitations, the literally 2-3x costs for performance compared to a desktop, and the loud noise)

I personally love my Clevo and my desktop, purely because its fun to customize and upgrade both, but if I had to choose one, I would go for a desktop and a Ultrabook, hands down

 

One final thought on the anti-BGA Turdbook crowd.

I know there are some on here that take the anti-BGA turdbook posts waaaay too personally and waaaay too seriously. The intent of the posts is to inform not to offend. One of the few remaining posters to be still spreading the word is @Papusan and he gets a lot of negative pushback because of it. But really, if his posts cause people to become informed computer users, who in turn make informed purchases, whether they buy solder BGA or whether they buy BGA/MXM or LGA/MXM, at least they are informed rather than living in ignorance that the laptop makers would prefer us to be in.

I would guess the negative pushback does not offend Papusan (and it shouldn't) nor does it offend me. But sometimes people get tribal about their computer purchases and in particular some subsets of the gaming community are prone to being tribal (a/k/a groups).

Signed:
One BGA turdbook hating Elitist (whom also uses a BGA turdbook and is using it right now).

 

I dislike BGA and I personally think its garbage (yes I know I'm echoing the thoughts of other users) but unfortunatly no PGA or LGA machine has 10-8 hours of battery life at a reasonable cost, or even cost a reasonable amount, and because of that, I use BGA for all tasks except the most demanding of things, so just web browsing and school work.
Some people (@/D*nishblunt) just blatantly defend BGA with little to no knowledge of most things, and some @/Papusuan call it an honor to still rock a LGA machine
Me personally? I don't honestly mind what people say, it all comes down to what you think is right

 

I think that you're getting to the core of the matter here. Almost no one is saying BGA is complete and utter trash PERIOD. What they are saying is that BGA has its place, and that place is with low performance / low cost ( sub $750 USD ) based machines. But using BGA for a High Performance DTR, that *is* garbage! This has been repeated many times by even the most anti-BGA vocal crowd here on NBR.

For high performance and flexibility, a thick chassis cooling an MxM GPU with desktop CPU, plenty of interchangeable RAM is what is desired. The emotion you see from time to time is that the number of choices you see offering this solution is becoming less and less over time. And *that* is a very bad thing.

 

True. Now that I've had two LGA/MXM systems, I'm largely done with them. I will try to upgrade the one that I have. I want to upgrade the Proc one generation (from i7-7700K to i7-8700K or i7-8086K) and *see* of the GPU is upgradable -- MSIs I read have a better track record for upgradable BIOS and vBIOS than Clevo. We'll see. I'm hoping to try RTX 2080 or GTX 1180, but will settle for RTX 2070 or GTX 1170 is TDP or PSU limits me. I got the 330W instead of 230W PSU for that reason, future upgrades. Now, I've been burned with upgrades before, like on the Alienware 18. It's 330W limited, with is way too small for a SLI computer. There's a number of tricky upgrade paths for GTX1070 single or GTX 980m SLI. That's even before you consider it's thickness (like 2 inches thick), 12 lbs weight without the 2.5 lbs 330 W brick.

But I am glad I got to try them. I would have always had that itch to scratch had I not tried. If the Eurocom Tornado is stuck with the GTX 1070 and no upgrade to next generation, that's OK. I did buy the GTX 1070 as it does 60 fps on Ultra at 1080p. That is more than enough for my needs.

After this though, my next laptop will be an ultrabook. Most likely Thinkpad X280 (Linux and Windows) and a Macbook Air 13 (macOS). My desktop will still be a silent water cooled monster that runs macOS, Linux, and Windows like it does today.

 

This echos my thoughts completety, I loved having a AW 17 R1, and a M17X R2, and a P377SM-A, but after upgrading the Clevo, I'm likely to sell it and just get a new Ryzen Notebook or something, I've personally been eyeballing the AW 17 R1 again and just keeping it for a while, its a very nice Notebook compared to the Clevo, but only one MXM slot which is enough for me

 

Computers are a hobby for me. I enjoy gaming, and I enjoy understanding how things work. I’m not an electrical engineer. I’m not not even mechanically savvy. Spent too much time studying theoretical nuclear physics crap. Real world, however. I’ve seen videos of taking apart thin and light MSI computers like my own 63vr. I have doubts I could put it back together again. Yet, issues such as thermal throttling that can negatively affect my enjoyment of games are very real. So is the need to understand what causes it and how to mitigate or prevent.

Very much on the barbed fence between BGA and LGA. It’s becoming clearer to me the differences between desktops and laptops. I may be more inclined to open a desktop case, pull a card out and replace it; pull a failed SSD out and replace; etc. For the cost of the system, I may be inclined to learn to update the BIOS and install upgraded chips. For the cost of some laptops, I may be inclined to throw away the unit altogether to save me from the grief of trying to remember where this red wire came from.

It is a balancing act. Computers are an investment. An investment in time, money and labor. I like Clevo’s and the larger MSIs because they are easier to access. But, the computer will eventually lose its “new car” smell. I will also get to the point where I have to make a decision can I fix or do I throw-away and start again. How far am I willing to go? Replace a heat sink? Install a GPU card not originally intended for that model? I can envision replacing the CPU. But, is that really important to do in light of the fact I see here many folks with 3rd and 4th gen CPUs. If the CPU dies early, be nice if I could change it out. If a MOSFET fails, or a capacitor fails, am I really likely to replace the motherboard? Like asking me if I blow my engine out, am I likely to buy a new one or replace the car. Depends on the age of the system. 3 - 5 years is a long time in computer life. 10-15 years is a long time in car life. I’d replace the motherboard if it was still under warranty. I’d replace the car.

Give me a machine I can rev up (under the red line), use it to stay 5 miles per hour above the speed limit. Of course, if someone is chasing me...

 

Even BGA haters can be reasonable at NBR, that is nice to read. My contact so far was more on the 'religious' and highly unreasonable side of the topic.
Thank you all for your insight on this matter, an upgradeable laptop is not nearly as easy to work with as i expected.

My goal is to have only one system, that i can game with when on business trips, at home it will be connected to bigger display and is stationary. And that is the point, where the noise comes in. My current P670 Clevo is silent enough for me during 1080p gaming on ultra, on the other side i don't play AAA titles. Needing a headset for not being disturbed by the fans would be the definition of "too noisy" for me.

As what i have taken from your comments so far is, that getting an upgradeable laptop in the future will be more difficult than in the past, because even the custom case builders like Clevo offer less machines for that.

I just sold my - extremely silent - desktop pc because of the a.m. one system policy. I think i will have to assess the situation again, when the need for a new system is due. I don't know, if my gaming requirements will change in the future or how much money i'm willing to invest. So it can be similiar system like now or i will do it like @Aroc and others and have a desktop (again) for gaming as a stationary at home and using a thin ultrabook for mobile browsing.

BGA laptops can be great, it depends on your personal requirements and preferences. Mine is running perfect, the only temperature issue i had with it was self-inflicted. I just don't like f.e. dull and religious signatures like @Papusan is using. It is an insult for someone with an IT systems background and looks like someone acting childish, not doing thoughtful criticism. Even if he is right in his own sense.

 

Silent?

Almost none. High performance means high heat means high airflow requirement or high fin stack volume. Even in the thick ones. Though just as nature abhors a vacuum, enthusiasts abhor unused power: the general consensus is that 2x 1080GTX for 1080p60hz is a waste, even though it ends up being pretty quiet due to the part utilised GPUs. I can travel with my giant DTR on one power brick, at an overclocked/voltage capped 100W per GPU and it's only maybe 25-40% down on full on 190W performance, with temps on my lap in the 60s, and fan noise fairly low (thanks to Obsidian's excellent fan control tool). Multiple fans and a giant vapour chamber heatsink are good to dissipate lots of heat quietly.

I ended up watercooling it because the noise was too much for the 4K experience I wanted, so there's your option for silent and huge power......

 

Ryzen (LGA) notebooks is half baked. A awful overclocker and with soldered graphics. Asus offer it. Awful cooling and lackluster quality. Acer is ready to push out similar laptop but with today’s Ryzen 2700. Expect same tragedy. No thanks!

 

I meant a cheap BGA APU based one, somewhere around $400-500

 

Main problem with BGA:

1) Cpu's are soldered, so if you get a high VID badly overclocking turd, you replace the motherboard if you want to overclock higher, rather than buying a new CPU and selling the old one, or buying a pretested CPU. You also don't have the luxury of building a high end desktop and swapping the CPU into the laptop to save cash, if you needed two systems.
2) power delivery on MOST systems is worse than on LGA systems (only MSI is using similar hardware in their LGA and high end Titan BGA systems)
3) cancer restrictions in the firmware are outlandish. Even LGA systems have this but it's not as bad.
4) Clock for clock, BGA cpu's have been tested to require 1 higher speed bin than a LGA cpu at the same mhz (meaning 100 mhz higher required). This has been tested at 200 mhz for 6 core BGA.
It is currently unknown whether this is due to higher latency in the BGA cpu L1/L2/L3 cache or not. It's something, that's for sure.
5) BGA CPU's are worse binned than LGA cpu's; they are the discarded silicon that didn't make the LGA cut. The very worst of the LGA CPU batch wind up the very best of the BGA cpu batch.

 

Bottom line: choosing a laptop is no longer black & white. Prospective owners must balance the equipment cost and time-cost for potential modifications with intended user needs. Those costs include response to acts of chance that cause the hardware to fail.

Get the best laptop that meets your needs knowing that there are limits on what we can and can’t do. Get the best desktop that meets your needs that can’t be addressed by the laptop.

In the interim, learn everything you reasonably can about both platforms so as to be able to make the best decision for oneself and be of assistance to others needing help.

PS: extended warranties for new hardware look sexy as hell.