Why don't OEMs use better thermal paste?

Suppose I were a laptop manufacturer, I could just make the exact same laptop as some other laptop (same specs, heatsink capability etc.), and just switch to using better thermal paste, and I would instantly get up to about 10°C lower temperatures with very little increased cost per unit and zero R&D cost.

I don't see how a "they don't care" explanation is valid. OEMs spend time and money engineering heatsinks, fans, etc, sometimes even use fancy stuff like vapor chambers and pompous gimmicks like GORE. So while they're at it, why don't they also use better thermal paste for an easy performance gain, better user experience, and a competitive edge? It seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

A lot of it is paste longevity. Most aftermarket thermal pastes start drying out badly after a few months. Sure the aftermarket paste performs a few degrees better at first, but a year later the OEM goop is a few degrees better.

With that said, some aftermarket pastes do last a long time. I'm pretty sure GC extreme does while being at the top tier of nonmetal thermal pastes.

 

this. also, consider cost. we are not talking about a syringe or two of thermal paste, but basically bucket loads. would be quite the significant cost increase.

 

Because it costs a LOT more for them to use, but would be of little gain

 

Yeah, that's not how that works.

 

I'm not sure I get you. 10 grams of GC-Extreme is 35USD on Amazon. That's good for more than 40 applications, so less than a dollar per application. OEMs can order in bulk and get better prices too. That doesn't look like much on, let's say, a $2000 computer. Using better thermal paste would allow them to make the laptops faster, thinner, cooler, or quieter — whichever they're optimizing for, allowing them to be more competitive. Assuming $1 for thermal paste on $2000 computers, they only need to sell 0.05% more computers to make up the difference. I think the competitive advantage would guarantee those extra sales and profit.

 

conspiracy theory time: they use garbage thermal paste so that it dries out in little over a year so that CPUs get nice and hot, thermal throttle, making the computers "slow" -> people buy a new computer or pay to "fix" the existing one.

Either way, the OEM makes money!

 

The thermal interface is rarely the root cause of overheating issues. Transferring heat from the CPU to the heatsink isn't the issue in a laptop cooling system, actually convecting it away is.

A better thermal interface might buy, at best, a few additional seconds of better thermal performance. Might even cause greater severity of fan operations, ie: the higher R heatsink interface may very well provide for overall less intrusive fan operation.

I suspect when most consumers replace heatsink paste, they also give the heatsink/fan a good cleaning, which probably explains most of the efficacy of the procedure, not replacing the thermal paste.

As far as the cost of paste, even the high-end formulations, trivial. I've had equal results with a $5 jumbo syringe from China (including shipping) as I've had with the expensive Arctic Silver, etc. at 10X the price. In fact, only a trivial amount of paste is required, basically enough to fill in the slight irregularities in flatness between the surfaces.

 

DFM, or design for manufacturing is an important consideration too. A lot of the times the thermal paste is pre-dispensed automatically onto the heat sync assembly so that the assembly worker simply places the assembly and tightens the screws.

For the paste to not run during storage or handling, it is usually rather thick, and it's almost like a very soft wax and not a liquid paste. Think butter. I have seen a picture of a bunch of heat sinks with a dotted pattern of pre-applied paste.

It is honestly probably better this way; when paste is applied manually usually they put way too much. Keep in mind that the assembly line worker probably has about 3 seconds in total, maybe 5 to get the heat sync on there.

 

There is no "root cause"; there is a multitude of factors that influence cooling capacity. Bad contact between CPU and heatsink? Bad cooling. Bad fans? Bad cooling. Not enough heatpipes? Also bad cooling. I'm not calling the thermal paste the one thing that decides all; I'm saying it's one link in the chain that can be easily improved with a good yield-effort ratio (since it requires 0 effort in engineering — just make a decision and reduce profit per unit by less than $1).

The data suggests supports that better thermal paste increases overall cooling capacity, including during continuous load. By the way, notice how the GPU tests, which are in the 60-70°C range, show more benefit from better thermal paste than the CPU tests, which are in the 30-40°C range. That suggests the advantage of better thermal paste is greater in hotter or more thermally constrained systems like graphics cards and laptops. This observation is supported by thermodynamics (specifically Q=mcΔT): in graphics cards and laptops, the heatsink's thermal mass is smaller compared to the heat source. So, the heatsink gets saturated more easily and its temperature rises more, and heat transfer between the chip and heatsink decreases. This is when thermal paste becomes more critical in maximizing the heat transferred to the heatsink.

In the controlled tests I've linked above, better thermal paste simply did better, not as a byproduct of cleaning.

Better thermal paste does help. Not as much as some other things, but it does help, and it does so easily, without having to spend more R&D efforts in redesigning the heatsinks and fans. (Of course, doing that would be nice too. I'm saying do the paste, not do the paste and forget everything else.)

 

Now that's an truly sound reason. Something you can't really get around.

True. But hey, too much is okay!

 

I think that custom manufacturers like Sager and Xotic PC usually have the option to upgrade to IC diamond etc.

These computers are not built in a big factory so they are able to do this.

 

You have to factor in that those pastes cannot be preapplpied by the heatsink manufacturers. Its extra labor while manufacturing as well and because ing eneral it needs to be by hand when it comes to aftermarket paste, it also can be widely inconsistent. They have set up the whole supply chain as efficient, cheap and consistent as possible. Manually applying aftermarket style paste (non stamp paste) just isnt a part of that.It sucks I know, I rather pay 5 euro's more but this is how mass manufacturing works.

 

Thank you all for these clarifications, I've now come to understand the issue better.

 

And a 20Kg bucket of Dow Corning will set you back 150-200€, compare that to any thermal paste that you know..

 

I think with OEM's, the problem is generally the application of the thermal paste more than it is the quality of the thermal paste. It is hard to tell for sure after taking the cooler off but every laptop I have ever replaced the thermal paste for looked like whoever applied it did not do a very good job. Even still, the largest temperature difference I have seen between stock and replaced thermal paste was 5-7C and that was only when pushing it to the limits. The average consumer will never notice that much of a difference.

 

But even saving cents off of some parts can add up to a large total. Also do not forget about the logistical side of things. If you are going to use "premium" paste on a premium laptop, you need to source and ship that paste along with some other "normal" paste. This would add to the costs and could not be used for other products

 

Sure they are, they use standard of the shelf MSI and Clevo and other brands laptops, take them apart and do what you pay them to do.

Going by your logic, 100$ is way too much to have a laptop repasted with Kryonaut, you can buy a lot of kryonaut for 100$, but you also need to pay for the time that it takes..

Also a 2000$ laptop gets out of the factory for less than 1000$, retail makes at least 40%, add shipping and taxes and you end up with pretty thin profit margins..

 

Yeah, exactly the same way as Intel has done last years... Paste longevity over best performance.

 

Also, factors like shelf lifespan and how it handles transport can be huge factors as well

 

I think the main issue is, proper thermal paste application requires a lot of time.
How long does a worker spend on thermal paste + attach heatsink? 30-60 seconds?
At home, how much time do you use to apply thermal paste and re-attach heatsink? 5-10 minutes?
Workers use power tools and they must hurry.

Should they slow down the assembly line in order to do a better job?
I would like them to slow down but manufacturing engineers might not want to slow down because costs will increase.

 

Workers don't apply thermal paste, it's already applied to the heatsink by the manufacturer. There would be far too much room for error if every person assembling laptops applied x amount of thermal paste.

 

On another note. I was surprised that more OEMs don't use Graphite Pads. The advantages of shelf life and theoretically infinite lifespan in a machine could be a huge selling point for corporate use or for OEM devices

 

Given graphite pads are conductive, I can see why

 

But for how precise machines can apply it and how stable it is, it certainly seems worth the "risk". It is FAR from the only conductive thing that they need to work with a laptop, so I can't see why another conductive thing is a problem

 

Likely a case of the current process "works just fine", so why spend the development time and cost on implementing the process for a better solution. Machines are precise enough to do it right once everything is set properly, but the development time and cost to get the right machinery, tooling and set the process right can be surprising at times. Businesses may not be willing to fork out the money for it if it doesn't improve profitability.

 

I guess the price needs to drop and the benefits made more clear before most jump ship. It is a more of a long term investment, but I certainly feel like for some uses, it would offer a lot

 

Marketing is for the masses, not the few people who would purchase a laptop because of the thermal interface material.

 

You can stencil thermal paste and it stays put, the graphite sheet doesn't